Author Topic: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up? (Locked)  (Read 26639 times)

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Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2014, 10:08:55 PM »

Offline loco_91

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Absolutely, but I'm not convinced it helps the Thunder. Rondo is due for a raise while Ibaka has 3 years left at $12m/yr. The ~$7m/year is huge for a team like OKC. They would love to save the cash, or if they end up with cap space they can sign a really solid vet 6th man who wants to play for a winning team... to me depth is what they are missing right now, not offensive production.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2014, 10:10:44 PM »

Offline celticsfan8591

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In a millisecond.  As would anyone who watches NBA games that don't involve the Celtics.  Unfortunately, Presti would hang up on Danny even faster than that.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2014, 10:13:24 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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   If you traded Rondo for Ibaka where does that really leave the team? Imagine OKC if you swapped Durant, Westbrook and Perk for Green, Sully and Smart. That's about where we'd be.

You mean besides filling a position of need (Ibaka can easily play C), addressing our biggest weakness (interior defense/rim protection), a cheaper contract (signed for a little over 12M until 2017 vs whatever we give Rondo), allowing more playing time to our greatest building block (Smart), and the age factor (3.5 years younger)? Yeah, we'd be in total peril.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2014, 10:15:13 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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As much as Ibaka is a great pf in the league he's like maybe 12th best.  Rondo is like top 8 at pg. Ibaka may be the better asset in the trade, but it's because of his age and money, not because he is more valuable to his team.

I think that a lot of the 'cons' you listed there need context. Yeah, Ibaka isn't more valuable to his team than Rondo is to his, but that's because Ibaka has two all-NBA caliber players on his team, and one of them was so good he managed to win an honest MVP during LeBron's prime.

But Ibaka is 100% the more valuable asset. He's a defensive anchor 4 with a consistent midrange shot and still tons of upside left. Rondo's upside...meh. You can argue that 'with a consistent jump shot' or whatever, but at 28 years old that's a 'I'll believe it when I see it' kind of argument for me.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2014, 10:28:58 PM »

Offline chambers

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Yes I'd do the trade in a heartbeat.
Top 5 big man that's underused on offense- particularly in the post, and is an elite single and help defender.

OKC wouldn't though.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2014, 10:35:07 PM »

Offline chambers

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As much as Ibaka is a great pf in the league he's like maybe 12th best. Rondo is like top 8 at pg. Ibaka may be the better asset in the trade, but it's because of his age and money, not because he is more valuable to his team.

No way, man. Name them.

Duncan
Anthony Davis
Zach Randolph
B Griffin
Alridge
Dirk
Love
Bosh
D Lee
P Gasol
P Millsap
A Drummond

Then you gotta factor in various guys that are maybe within his range that could be better than him on any given night and/or guys that are quasi centers like Al Jefferson, Boozer, Taj Gibson, K Faried, Nene, and Al Horford.

Serge is good. But he's not an all star for a reason.

You're not looking at the context of Ibaka's value.
He's arguably the 2nd most important player on the Thunder, and you'll laugh at that statement because you don't value his defensive impact. He's also insanely underutilized in OKC's streetball offense where Durant and Westbrook take all the shots and Ibaka defends the paint and shoots a few 15 footers.

When they finally fire Scott Brooks, and start playing some offense in the post, Ibaka would be an easy 20 point/ 10 rebound guy just owning the paint on the defensive end.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2014, 10:37:13 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA @ David Lee being better than Ibaka. Yeah, the defensive sieve David Lee whom Golden State has been trying to dump for at least a year is better than the two way-playing, DPoY-caliber Ibaka.

Hahahaha, funniest thing I've read ever.

As for the idea that Ibaka isn't a "team definer": absolute nonsense. He IS the backbone of the Thunder's defense. Look at how much OKC was thrown off their game in the WCF when Ibaka went down with injury. Then look at how they rebounded from their shellackings in Games 1 and 2 when Ibaka returned in Game 3.

To answer the topic question: OKC just simply wouldn't. Again, this is a team that's made the WCF three of the past four seasons and had their two most recent playoff runs derailed by injury. They don't need any kind of massive change. They simply need a reliable bench, better coaching, and good health.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:43:45 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2014, 10:43:57 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Rondo is a meh player? Has people forgotten what he's done as a player and what makes you so sure ibaka is a legitimate all star?

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2014, 11:12:07 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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There are seriously 4 pages already for this thread? This isn't even worth debating.

30 of 30 GMs would make this trade, unless the team you're talking about somehow already had Drummond, Davis, and Howard on the roster.

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2014, 11:13:21 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Didn't realize Ibaka is a franchise player.  ::)

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2014, 11:18:45 PM »

Offline jdub1660

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http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m5k47np

Rondo and Bass plus future 1st
Ibaka Lamb and Thabeet
Can't stop, Rondo!

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2014, 11:21:35 PM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

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ROFL at this thread

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2014, 12:10:46 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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I 'get' that the idea here is to trade from a position of perceived surplus (point guard, because we just drafted Smart, so in some folks' eyes that makes Rondo "expendable").

But why are you doing so to add to another position of perceived surplus (Power Forward)?

'Not crazy about this deal as proposed.

And given that OKC seems committed to Westbrook as PG (and he's a poor 3PT shooter who would not be a great space maker next to Rondo), I doubt they would be crazy about it either.

I reject the notion that the trade Rondo/keep Rondo debate has everything to do with position. The Celtics are a rebuilding team; Rondo is approaching 30. The Celtics do not have a true no. 1 option on offense; Rondo thrives when surrounded by shooters/scorers/no. 1 options. Rondo appears to want a big payday and much of that raise would be in place of money that we could ideally use to pair Rondo with a no. 1 option like LaMarcus Aldridge. On top of all that, we just drafted a PG.

Discriminating against talent based on position is almost always a poor management tactic. If we can get Ibaka we should do it not because he can play center in addition to PF (and therefore decrease his value by playing out of position), but because he's a rare, versatile talent who makes any team good even if they already have Blake Griffin and Duncan (and we certainly don't have those guys).

The idea here is to pair Ibaka with J. Okafor, Towns or one of the center prospects in next year's draft. If it means trading Sully, Olynyk, or both, I'm all for it, as long as we get fair value. If it means keeping them, fine, as long as it's part of a plan that ends with us winning a championship.

The part you put in italics goes against your alleged principal.  If it has nothing to do with position, then the fact that we drafted a PG is supposedly irrelevant.

Rondo will be 28 this coming year.  Even if Danny gave him a full 5 year contract next summer, he would only be 33 years old in the final year.   That's basically still in edge of the peak years for the modern NBA main rotation player (excluding lesser quality players who wash out much earlier).   There were 27 players age 33+ last year who played at least 1000 minutes (most played MUCH more than that) and the vast majority posted at least 3 Win Shares last season.   Names like Dirk, Duncan, David West, Manu, Dunleavy, Anderson, Pierce, Ray, Fisher, etc., etc.   The list of age 30+ players in the league reads like a list of playoff rotation players from last year.   In other words, Rondo's skills are likely to still be at a very high level even 5 years out.

So saying he is "approaching 30" is also probably pretty much irrelevant.  Barring injury, Rondo isn't likely to suddenly fall off a cliff.  It isn't something to be scared about.

The only point you've made then, that has any relevance here is the issue of contracts.   Retaining Rondo past this coming year will cost money.   But that's a marginal difference cost.  Ibaka will cost 12M.  Rondo will cost, what?  16-17M?   So, the difference amounts to a mid-level contract.   Except you have to also look at the marginal value upgrade at each position.  Is Ibaka that much of a marginal gain over what you could expect out of (the much cheaper) Olynyk and/or Sullinger?   How much of a drop-off will you get going from Rondo to Smart as your starter until Smart eventually has the necessary experience to realize his potential?

Your first two sentences are completely and utterly wrong. You said the only reason people wanted to trade Rondo was because we drafted Smart. I only said that there were far more reasons, though I never denied that one of them had to do with Smart.

Saying that Rondo is "approaching 30" is hardly irrelevant. In fact it's very relevant considering that the Celtics are at least two years away from contending even if we keep Rondo (some would argue that retaining Rondo hinders our ability to improve given his age, contract status and uncertain future regarding his knee). That's extremely important for a management and ownership group that openly desires to create a long (7-10 year) contention window (a la Spurs/OKC) rather than a 3-5 year contention window (a la KG Celts/LBJ Heat). If we keep Rondo, the latter is far more likely even if much of the retool plan went accordingly (and we signed, say, the 30 year old Marc Gasol next year).

Getting Ibaka would likely hide the weaknesses of Sully/Olynyk and pump up their trade value, allowing us to use one or both of them to secure a high pick next year and trade for Jahlil Okafor or Myles Turner. What I've proposed is part of a larger plan that I touched on in the OP, which is establishing a dominant frontcourt to go along with Smart, Bradley, Young and future picks. Ibaka alone is not enough of an upgrade at PF to push us in contention next year. But that isn't the point and I know from reading this forum that you're smart enough to recognize that. Ibaka is a huge step in building our frontcourt of the future, and such a frontcourt -- Ibaka/Okafor, Ibaka/Turner, etc. -- is vastly better than Sully/Zeller, Olynyk/Zeller, Sully/Olynyk and even Sully/Ibaka or Ibaka/Olynyk.

The same goes for your point about Smart's development. Never once did I say this trade would make us an immediate contender. In the time it will take Smart to develop, our contending squad of the future will still be taking form.

And again, your point about the contracts of Rondo and Ibaka is entirely irrelevant. What I was saying is that if we were to keep Rondo it would indicate a win-now stance taken by management. Let's say this year was Rondo's contract year and we had $20m in cap space accounting for Rondo's roughly $12m cap hold. If Rondo asked for $17m we would be down to $15m in space (going from contending for Melo to contending for Chandler Parsons). That difference in a vacuum may only be a mid-level contract but in reality it's the difference between being a solid playoff team and a championship contender. If we were to trade Rondo for Ibaka, it doesn't matter that he makes the same amount of money currently because a) he's locked up for multiple years and b) we likely wouldn't be trying to build a contender through the 2015 FA class in such circumstances.

Oh goodness.  Management is not looking at a 7-10 year competitive cycle.  The fundamental fact of the NBA right now is 4 year rookie control and 4-5 year Bird rights control.   'Planning' for a "Spurs/OKC" type franchise experience is ridiculous because that is only going to happen if you (a) win the lottery and (b) that happens in a year when a Duncan or Durant is available.   Neither (a) nor (b) are things you should 'plan' a multi-million dollar business around.   That isn't planning.  That's hoping.

I can almost guarantee that Wyc & co-ownership are NOT telling Danny that it's okay if we aren't competitive for 2-3 years.   They are going to want to start logging more Ws than Ls long before that.  That doesn't mean they expect to be title contenders right away.  They aren't stupid people.  But fundamentally this is an entertainment business that makes money by winning games.

{Aside - on that topic - I can also guarantee you that from a ticket sales perspective, there is no way Wyc would approve a trade of Rondo for Ibaka.  For good or bad, that's a reality - this is an entertainment business.}

At any rate, the trade you propose isn't going to happen.  Whether you want to view it as because OKC says , "No." or because Boston says, "No." -- or more likely both -- doesn't matter.  It isn't going to happen.
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Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2014, 12:14:49 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Has Ibaka even made an all star team?  Yes, he's a great athlete, but he's also punked Blake Griffin a few times and those were dirty plays - no question about that.  Maybe it's me, but I don't want players like that on our team.  He also has no inside game and isn't a passer or rebounder, so aside from his shot blocking prowess, I just don't see the appeal for us.

Rondo, on the other hand, while he does have his flaws, is the most unique player in the game and is unguardable, imo.  He's kind of like a mini-Bird (even though he isn't even close to Larry) with how he sees things that no one else does, and teams cannot scheme for him.  He's too smart.  The difference between Rondo and someone like Tony Parker, who's grossly overrated imo, is that Rondo makes everyone better, so he doesn't have to score to dominate a game. 

For example, when Parker was guarded by Lebron, in both the '13 and '14 NBA Finals, not only did he fail to score, but he also didn't use the matchup to his advantage to set up his teammates.  Rondo, on the other hand, as Danny has said (and I rarely agree with him on anything haha), has been the best player in a series with Derrick Rose and Lebron James.  Game 1 aside in 2009, Rose didn't do anything much for the rest of that series, while Rondo ended the playoffs averaging close to a triple double at 6'1" :o  He was amazing, and the next year, incredibly, he was even better.  Cleveland's defense was arguably, along with ours, the best in the league at that time, and they simply had no answer for Rondo.  I remember those games.  The Cavs nearly went through their entire roster looking for anyone who could stop him, and it still wasn't nearly enough.  Mo Williams?  No chance.  Anthony Parker?  Forget about it.  Delonte?  Sorry.  Even Lebron couldn't do anything to stop Rondo - a trend that would continue in Miami.  The Heat simply had no one who could guard him.  Wade?  Except for purposely injuring Rondo, nope.  Chalmers?  Get lost.  Lebron?  No chance.  Rondo takes advantage of everything the defense gives him.  They'd put Lebron on him and sag so far off of him, virtually daring Rondo to take the jumper (which he made, more often than not), but Rondo used the space given to him to his advantage and still always got guys great shots because of his passing ability and smarts.  I really don't understand why everyone wants to get rid of him.  Yes, he's 28, but with his freakishly-long arms, why couldn't he continue to play effectively like Derek Fisher well into his mid-to-late 30s?  It's an honest question.  Trade Rondo for Ibaka?  Where can I put my head through a wall?

Re: Would Anyone Swap Rondo for Serge Ibaka Straight-Up?
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2014, 12:28:30 AM »

fitzhickey

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Has Ibaka even made an all star team?  Yes, he's a great athlete, but he's also punked Blake Griffin a few times and those were dirty plays - no question about that. Maybe it's me, but I don't want players like that on our team.
KG did very similar things; did you not want him?