If Ainge had taken Stephenson instead of Bradley in 2010...

[Beat LA]

For Green? We got a second rounder from the Thunder.

No, I mean after it was determined that he couldn't play that year because of the surgery.  I just remember that after we had signed him, he was working out or taking a physical and the doctors couldn't figure out what exactly was wrong, so they had to run a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.load of tests, and thank god they did.

[BballTim]

TA also plays much better defense than Stephenson does.

Disagree.  I think it's pretty close between them, quite honestly.

  I agree with D.o.s. TA's IMO clearly the better defender.

[crimson_stallion]

I think that this lineup could have beaten the Heat -

Rondo, Stephenson, Pierce, Bass, and Garnett, with Ray as the 6th man because of his injury.  We would have beaten them with Bradley, and I see no reason why Lance could not have contributed the same, or more, on both ends.  Unlike Avery, Stephenson can guard Lebron and Wade, and, coupled with the contributions of Pietrus, I think that we could have done it, with or without Bosh from game 1, because we were beating Miami convincingly with Bradley.  Thoughts?

I'm assuming you're referring to our last trip to the ECF?

Honestly, I think losing AB was the turning point in that playoff run.  That team was a terrible offensive team with pretty mediocre talent, and we won every one of those playoff games by grinding it out with hard nosed defence, and pure unrelenting effort.  A number of those games were won on 3 or 4 hustle plays from unlikely heroes - some huge clutch defence by Dooling, along with a couple of huge offensive plays by Marquis and Pietrus pretty much was what decided it, that's how close those first two rounds were.

We had to fight on every possession to scrape past Philly in the first round, then Atlanta in the second.  Everybody probably remembers how huge Rondo and Garnett were in that playoff run (they basically carried the team) but I think that AB was absolutely huge in that run.  His defence was absolutely suffocating, and he contributed significantly on offense too.  From memory his +/- stat during that playoff run was among some of the best in the league (and second best on the team after KG).  Without AB, I very seriously doubt we'd have made it to the ECF, and we probably never would have faced the Heat.

I really thought AB was going to be the wildcard in that Boston/Miami series.  Between Pierce, Marquis and Pietrus we had enough swingmen to throw at Lebron to make his life difficult, KG has always done a nice job on Bosh, and AB had a history of giving Dwyane Wade grief with his defence.  We were outdone on talent (remember Pierce and Ray were both playing injured) but I really felt like if we stretched it out to 6 or 7 games, we had a genuine shot of pulling off an upset.  Once we lost Bradley with the shoulder injury for the rest of that series, I knew we were done.  It forced us to throw guys like Pietrus and Marquis on to D Wade, which left us with not enough bodies to throw at Lebron...and LBJ destroyed us, well and truly. 

I don't think we would have fared any better with Stephenson then we would have with AB.  In fact I think we would have had a better chance against Miami with a healthy Bradley then we would have with Stephenson, who was a very mediocre player at that time. 

Also I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that Stephenson has the size to defend Lebron.  Lebron has a good 3" and 30lbs over Stephenson AND he's more athletic.  He'd have a better chance against him than AB would, but I still think Lebron would kill him. 

I don't know...Lance Stephenson is a talented player, but I think people really underestimate the impact Avery Bradley can have on a game.  With his motor, his hustle and his intensity he's the type of player who has the potential to change the outcome of an entire playoff series without having to have a single play called for him.

AB was a

[crimson_stallion]

TA also plays much better defense than Stephenson does.

Disagree.  I think it's pretty close between them, quite honestly.

  I agree with D.o.s. TA's IMO clearly the better defender.

I consider Stephenson to be an above average defensive player.

I consider Tony Allen and Avery Bradley to be elite defensive players.  Just my 2 cents!

[Beat LA]

TA also plays much better defense than Stephenson does.

Disagree.  I think it's pretty close between them, quite honestly.

Are you talking about Allen during his first four seasons in the league (i.e. equivalent amount of time in the league as Stephenson), or throughout their careers in totality?

Because if it's the former, I'd agree. If it's the latter, it's not even close. Stephenson wasn't even a better defender than Allen last season, and there's a nine-year athleticism gap between the two players.

Enthusiastic defense, which is how I'd describe Stephenson's D, as his mind wanders a lot when he's not on-ball, is not the same as good defense, which is not nearly laudatory enough to describe how Tony Allen plays defense. I don't trust Lance to stay with Kevin Durant through a pick and roll screen, but Tony Allen's made a career of it.

For the record, I'm not lauding Lance's theatrics in the ECF, although I did find them to be hilarious, as great defense, but he is an excellent defender, imo.  If TA is such a great defender, why wasn't he starting last year?  Oh, right, because he's a bonehead who can't make a jump shot.  Courtney Lee was a huge upgrade, imo. 

I don't know, I've just seen Tony make a lot of dumb plays at the worst possible times, but even at his height, if he ever had one, he doesn't have the versatility of Stephenson, defensively, because despite his athletic prowess, Tony can only guard 1's and 2's.  Yes, he did guard Lebron in 2010, and was very effective at doing so, but, again, that's mostly because Lebron couldn't post him up like Kobe did in the finals, and TA simply doesn't have the muscle to offset his lack of height against Bryant (ie, the ability to push him out further from where he wants to receive the ball).  Marquis should have played a lot more.  He was ready by the ECF that year.

I was comparing their careers, btw, so I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Beat LA]

I think that this lineup could have beaten the Heat -

Rondo, Stephenson, Pierce, Bass, and Garnett, with Ray as the 6th man because of his injury.  We would have beaten them with Bradley, and I see no reason why Lance could not have contributed the same, or more, on both ends.  Unlike Avery, Stephenson can guard Lebron and Wade, and, coupled with the contributions of Pietrus, I think that we could have done it, with or without Bosh from game 1, because we were beating Miami convincingly with Bradley.  Thoughts?

I'm assuming you're referring to our last trip to the ECF?

Honestly, I think losing AB was the turning point in that playoff run.  That team was a terrible offensive team with pretty mediocre talent, and we won every one of those playoff games by grinding it out with hard nosed defence, and pure unrelenting effort.  A number of those games were won on 3 or 4 hustle plays from unlikely heroes - some huge clutch defence by Dooling, along with a couple of huge offensive plays by Marquis and Pietrus pretty much was what decided it, that's how close those first two rounds were.

We had to fight on every possession to scrape past Philly in the first round, then Atlanta in the second.  Everybody probably remembers how huge Rondo and Garnett were in that playoff run (they basically carried the team) but I think that AB was absolutely huge in that run.  His defence was absolutely suffocating, and he contributed significantly on offense too.  From memory his +/- stat during that playoff run was among some of the best in the league (and second best on the team after KG).  Without AB, I very seriously doubt we'd have made it to the ECF, and we probably never would have faced the Heat.

I really thought AB was going to be the wildcard in that Boston/Miami series.  Between Pierce, Marquis and Pietrus we had enough swingmen to throw at Lebron to make his life difficult, KG has always done a nice job on Bosh, and AB had a history of giving Dwyane Wade grief with his defence.  We were outdone on talent (remember Pierce and Ray were both playing injured) but I really felt like if we stretched it out to 6 or 7 games, we had a genuine shot of pulling off an upset.  Once we lost Bradley with the shoulder injury for the rest of that series, I knew we were done.  It forced us to throw guys like Pietrus and Marquis on to D Wade, which left us with not enough bodies to throw at Lebron...and LBJ destroyed us, well and truly. 

I don't think we would have fared any better with Stephenson then we would have with AB.  In fact I think we would have had a better chance against Miami with a healthy Bradley then we would have with Stephenson, who was a very mediocre player at that time. 

Also I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that Stephenson has the size to defend Lebron.  Lebron has a good 3" and 30lbs over Stephenson AND he's more athletic.  He'd have a better chance against him than AB would, but I still think Lebron would kill him. 

I don't know...Lance Stephenson is a talented player, but I think people really underestimate the impact Avery Bradley can have on a game.  With his motor, his hustle and his intensity he's the type of player who has the potential to change the outcome of an entire playoff series without having to have a single play called for him.

AB was a

Two things - 1).  We played Atlanta in the 1st round, defeating them in 6 games, and faced the 76ers in the semifinals, where we lost Bradley in game 3 or 4 (I can't remember).  2).  We were always a terrible offensive team, and that was Doc's fault.  Watching the Clippers only validated that for me. 

Btw, where were you going with that last sentence?  Me thinks something's missing

[BballTim]

TA also plays much better defense than Stephenson does.

Disagree.  I think it's pretty close between them, quite honestly.

Are you talking about Allen during his first four seasons in the league (i.e. equivalent amount of time in the league as Stephenson), or throughout their careers in totality?

Because if it's the former, I'd agree. If it's the latter, it's not even close. Stephenson wasn't even a better defender than Allen last season, and there's a nine-year athleticism gap between the two players.

Enthusiastic defense, which is how I'd describe Stephenson's D, as his mind wanders a lot when he's not on-ball, is not the same as good defense, which is not nearly laudatory enough to describe how Tony Allen plays defense. I don't trust Lance to stay with Kevin Durant through a pick and roll screen, but Tony Allen's made a career of it.

For the record, I'm not lauding Lance's theatrics in the ECF, although I did find them to be hilarious, as great defense, but he is an excellent defender, imo.  If TA is such a great defender, why wasn't he starting last year?  Oh, right, because he's a bonehead who can't make a jump shot.  Courtney Lee was a huge upgrade, imo. 

I don't know, I've just seen Tony make a lot of dumb plays at the worst possible times, but even at his height, if he ever had one, he doesn't have the versatility of Stephenson, defensively, because despite his athletic prowess, Tony can only guard 1's and 2's.  Yes, he did guard Lebron in 2010, and was very effective at doing so, but, again, that's mostly because Lebron couldn't post him up like Kobe did in the finals, and TA simply doesn't have the muscle to offset his lack of height against Bryant (ie, the ability to push him out further from where he wants to receive the ball).  Marquis should have played a lot more.  He was ready by the ECF that year.

I was comparing their careers, btw, so I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  TA was killing Kobe in the finals that year. You must be thinking of Ray Allen's defense, not Tony's.

[European NBA fan]

For Green? We got a second rounder from the Thunder.

No, I mean after it was determined that he couldn't play that year because of the surgery.  I just remember that after we had signed him, he was working out or taking a physical and the doctors couldn't figure out what exactly was wrong, so they had to run a ****load of tests, and thank god they did.

Green's contract was voided, which apparantly was a good thing for both parties. I'm not sure why it benefitted Green, but the Celtics got him off the books for that season, which was worth more than the exception we could have gotten.

[D.o.s.]

TA also plays much better defense than Stephenson does.

Disagree.  I think it's pretty close between them, quite honestly.

Are you talking about Allen during his first four seasons in the league (i.e. equivalent amount of time in the league as Stephenson), or throughout their careers in totality?

Because if it's the former, I'd agree. If it's the latter, it's not even close. Stephenson wasn't even a better defender than Allen last season, and there's a nine-year athleticism gap between the two players.

Enthusiastic defense, which is how I'd describe Stephenson's D, as his mind wanders a lot when he's not on-ball, is not the same as good defense, which is not nearly laudatory enough to describe how Tony Allen plays defense. I don't trust Lance to stay with Kevin Durant through a pick and roll screen, but Tony Allen's made a career of it.

For the record, I'm not lauding Lance's theatrics in the ECF, although I did find them to be hilarious, as great defense, but he is an excellent defender, imo.  If TA is such a great defender, why wasn't he starting last year?  Oh, right, because he's a bonehead who can't make a jump shot.  Courtney Lee was a huge upgrade, imo. 

I don't know, I've just seen Tony make a lot of dumb plays at the worst possible times, but even at his height, if he ever had one, he doesn't have the versatility of Stephenson, defensively, because despite his athletic prowess, Tony can only guard 1's and 2's.  Yes, he did guard Lebron in 2010, and was very effective at doing so, but, again, that's mostly because Lebron couldn't post him up like Kobe did in the finals, and TA simply doesn't have the muscle to offset his lack of height against Bryant (ie, the ability to push him out further from where he wants to receive the ball).  Marquis should have played a lot more.  He was ready by the ECF that year.

I was comparing their careers, btw, so I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

The bolded is incorrect, unless you consider Durant a shooting guard?

[Beat LA]

TA also plays much better defense than Stephenson does.

Disagree.  I think it's pretty close between them, quite honestly.

Are you talking about Allen during his first four seasons in the league (i.e. equivalent amount of time in the league as Stephenson), or throughout their careers in totality?

Because if it's the former, I'd agree. If it's the latter, it's not even close. Stephenson wasn't even a better defender than Allen last season, and there's a nine-year athleticism gap between the two players.

Enthusiastic defense, which is how I'd describe Stephenson's D, as his mind wanders a lot when he's not on-ball, is not the same as good defense, which is not nearly laudatory enough to describe how Tony Allen plays defense. I don't trust Lance to stay with Kevin Durant through a pick and roll screen, but Tony Allen's made a career of it.

For the record, I'm not lauding Lance's theatrics in the ECF, although I did find them to be hilarious, as great defense, but he is an excellent defender, imo.  If TA is such a great defender, why wasn't he starting last year?  Oh, right, because he's a bonehead who can't make a jump shot.  Courtney Lee was a huge upgrade, imo. 

I don't know, I've just seen Tony make a lot of dumb plays at the worst possible times, but even at his height, if he ever had one, he doesn't have the versatility of Stephenson, defensively, because despite his athletic prowess, Tony can only guard 1's and 2's.  Yes, he did guard Lebron in 2010, and was very effective at doing so, but, again, that's mostly because Lebron couldn't post him up like Kobe did in the finals, and TA simply doesn't have the muscle to offset his lack of height against Bryant (ie, the ability to push him out further from where he wants to receive the ball).  Marquis should have played a lot more.  He was ready by the ECF that year.

I was comparing their careers, btw, so I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

The bolded is incorrect, unless you consider Durant a shooting guard?

Yeah, I saw those games, and Tony did a great job on KD, but why couldn't Stephenson do the same, in addition to providing shooting, slashing, cuts, passes, and post ups on offense?  TA can't do any of those things, occasional baseline cuts aside.  I guess what I'm asking is wouldn't it be better to have a great two-way player instead of a one dimensional, boneheaded one with no jump shot?  It's not just Stephenson, btw.  What about Wesley Matthews?  I'd take him over Tony any day of the week and twice on Sunday.