Author Topic: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes  (Read 24298 times)

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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2014, 02:45:43 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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all those that claim the lottery is not fixed, can you explain how Cleveland won the lottery 2 years out of four that the King was gone?

Ummm....their combination came up in a drawing that was witnessed by multiple team representatives and independent auditors?


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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2014, 02:46:55 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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all those that claim the lottery is not fixed, can you explain how Cleveland won the lottery 2 years out of four that the King was gone?

An outcome with a non-zero chance of occurring occurred.
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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2014, 02:51:52 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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And every now and then you get teams like the Sixers who try to take it to a total extreme.  The actions of the Sixers reflect badly on the entire league.
Its not just reflects badly on the league, but the league as a whole is unhappy with the 76ers because of how much money they're losing because of this. Their direct revenue has dipped a lot because of their approach to rebuilding their team.
And yet a number of people think it was the right thing for Philadelphia to do given their situation at the time.
A number of people think that signing to Kobe to a two year 48 million dollar contract was the best move the Lakers could have made regarding his upcoming FA.

That doesn't change how the league views Philly's plans and how its effecting the league's overall bottom line.

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2014, 02:53:52 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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all those that claim the lottery is not fixed, can you explain how Cleveland won the lottery 2 years out of four that the King was gone?

Well, when a team misses the postseason in the NBA, they enter what's known as the Draft Lottery. This is a process, publicly broadcast and audited every year, when each team that missed the playoffs is given separately weighted odds in the lottery, which is held to determine which team will end up with the number one pick. Teams are given different odds of winning it based on their record, so the worst team has the highest number of opportunities to "win" the lottery and get the number one pick.

Since LeBron left, the Cavs have been in the draft lottery. Their first number one pick, that turned into Kyrie Irving, was actually the Clippers pick, acquired in the Baron Davis trade. Since Cleveland hasn't traded their first round picks since LeBron left, they've been in the draft lottery ever since, and have been fortunate enough to come out on top in two years since.

I'm glad you asked this question -- it takes real courage to admit that you don't understand how something works, especially on the internet, where knowledge is just one Google search away.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2014, 02:58:29 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The 76ers, sources said, are hoping to get the NBA to delay plans for at least a year because it acts as a de facto punishment while just playing by the rules that have been in place.

That's a pretty good point in favor of the 76ers, IMO.

  The other 29 teams are playing by the rules that have been in place as well. I don't think that claiming the league should delay attempts to prevent tanking because a team isn't trying to put a competitive team on the court and they want a high draft pick will fly. That's kind of like arguing for a delay in increasing the penalty for stealing because you'd planned to rob the liquor store to cover your electric bill.

Tanking for better odds of a high pick is allowed in the NBA.  Robbing the liquor store is not allowed...

  If tanking's allowed then an owner could tell the press his team deliberately lost games down the stretch to improve their draft position without fear of punishment from the league. I doubt that's the case.

You would agree, I assume, that 'tanking' has occurred in the NBA?  Everyone knows it, the league accepts it (as long as you don't come out in public and say that you're 'tanking') and it is surely the best, if not the only, way to rebuild quickly, or maybe at all. 

On the other hand, if you walk into a liquor store, point a gun at the cashier and demand money, the police and district attorney are not going to look the other way.  If you are apprehended, and they will attempt to identify and locate you, you will be charged with a crime.

  While this is a fairly pointless discussion, all you're basically saying is that if you're caught red-handed doing one thing you're in trouble, but if they don't have proof you did something else you get away with it. Obviously the fact that it's hard to prove something doesn't mean it's "allowed" to happen. That's like saying you're allowed to cheat on your taxes or commit perjury, since both of those things happen on a regular basis without punishment.

What I am 'basically saying' is that your original comparison of tanking in the NBA to robbing a liquour store is terribly flawed. 

The NBA front office knows that franchises are tanking but does not attempt to sanction such teams.  When the appropriate government agencies are aware of tax cheating or commission of perjury, criminal prosecutions often follow.  The NBA cannot 'prove' tanking, but in some (most) instances, the IRS, etc. is able to 'prove' a violation or criminal misconduct.  For that reason alone, your analogy left much to be desired...

  That would be because I never tried to compare tanking to robbing a liquor store. I said a team that's tanking complaining about impending rule changes to prevent tanking is like someone who's about to break a law complaining because the penalty for breaking that law is increasing. I'm not sure you understand this (many people here don't seem to) but an analogy  works if certain similarities between two things exist, not just if all things between the two are the similar.

  Also, someone working for the government can "know" that someone's committing perjury or breaking another law without being able to "prove" it. Just like with tanking. I'd also say it's unlikely that the IRS doesn't prove most instances of tax cheating, but like the rest of this discussion that's not that important.

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2014, 02:59:36 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Since the chances of picking the correct Powerball numbers is practically zero, it can be taken as actually being zero.  Therefore, the fact that anybody actually wins is proof that the Powerball drawing is rigged.
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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2014, 03:00:47 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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A wise man once said, it is folly to be wise where ignorance runs in perfect bliss.

Enjoy your bliss.

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2014, 03:06:50 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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A wise man once said, it is folly to be wise where ignorance runs in perfect bliss.

Enjoy your bliss.

I'm paraphrasing, but I believe it was Tim Leary who once said "If you’re going to think for yourself, you gotta learn to think clearly."
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2014, 03:26:48 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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A wise man once said, it is folly to be wise where ignorance runs in perfect bliss.

Enjoy your bliss.

Enjoy your delusion.


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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2014, 03:28:44 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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76ers have every right to be upset with a change in the lottery rules but the league needs to do it. Fans pay money to watch good basketball and a lame duck team isn't good for the league. I'm all for teams rebuilding and playing young players but Phili has shown no interest in winning.

As fare as the Lottery goes I think a penalty system should be put in place for teams that win are or are seeded highly in the lottery. EX

2014 #1 pick means no top 5 pick 2015, no top 3 2015, and no #1 2016

2014 #2,#3 means no top top 5 2015, no top 3 2016

Or if the league wants to be less harsh

They could do something similar to the proposed evening of the %s but with a penalty built in. To make things simple (actually % should be much more even) lets say worse record get 14 chances and the team that just misses playoffs gets 1 chance in 2015. If in the 2014 draft you had the #1 pick you loose 50%, 2 losses 25%, 3 looses 12%, 4 looses 6% and 5 looses 3% of your chances. So if the team that wins the lottery in 2014 has worst record in 2015 they only get 7 chances not 14. This means a bottom lottery team can tank all they want and still finish as a middle lottery team. This also helps the teams that just miss the playoffs.

I think either of these ideas would help fight long term tanking. Teams dumping vets at the trade deadline is always going to happen and is just part of the league. But the unwillingness to field a team capable of winning 20+ games before the season even starts could be avoided by a system like this.

 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 03:35:39 PM by CFAN38 »
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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2014, 03:40:14 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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A wise man once said, it is folly to be wise where ignorance runs in perfect bliss.

Enjoy your bliss.

And a wiser man named Michael McDonald once said, "HWhat a foohool belieeeeeves he seeeeees, no hwise mhan has the pohower, to reason ahway..."

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2014, 04:02:56 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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A wise man once said, it is folly to be wise where ignorance runs in perfect bliss.

Enjoy your bliss.

And a wiser man named Michael McDonald once said, "HWhat a foohool belieeeeeves he seeeeees, no hwise mhan has the pohower, to reason ahway..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNTARSM-Fjc
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2014, 04:27:00 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I say again, the teams with the worst record rarely win the first pick so what exactly is the league fixing again.  Heck the current system went to effect because too many of the good teams were in fact winning the top 3 picks.  Teams that finish with the worst records do so because they are bad teams and they are rarely that way because they are tanking.  They are just bad.  I mean look at the Bucks, terrible terrible team last year, but they didn't sell off veterans for pennies on the dollar, in fact they were actually fairly aggressive the prior summer.  They just stunk.  What is the purpose of making it even harder for a team like the Bucks to acquire the top tier talent in the draft when they already are unlikely to win the top pick.

2014 - Cleveland 9th best chance
2013 - Cleveland 3rd best chance
2012 - New Orleans 4th best chance
2011 - Cleveland 8th best chance (they won with LA's pick not their own)
2010 - Washington 5th best chance
2009 - L.A. Clippers 3rd best chance
2008 - Chicago 9th best chance
2007 - Portland 6th best chance
2006 - Toronto 5th best chance
2005 - Milwaukee 6th best chance
2004 - Orlando 1st best chance
2003 - Cleveland 1st best chance
2002 - Houston 5th best chance
2001 - Washington 3rd best chance
2000 - New Jersey 7th best chance
1999 - Chicago 3rd best chance
1998 - L.A. Clippers 3rd best chance
1997 - San Antonio 3rd best chance
1996 - Philadelphia 2nd best chance
1995 - Golden State 5th best chance
1994 - Milwaukee 4th best chance

Cleveland and Orlando in back to back years (03 and 04) are the only two teams that had the worst record that actually won the first pick.  Philadelphia in 1996 is the only team to have the 2nd worst record to win the 1st pick.  Having the 3rd worst record has historically landed the #1 pick more times than any other finish position winning the first pick 6 separate times including Cleveland last year. 

Thus this notion that the lottery must be fixed to stop teams from tanking is just silly because the truly bad teams almost never are rewarded with the 1st pick any way.
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Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2014, 03:19:23 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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The 76ers, sources said, are hoping to get the NBA to delay plans for at least a year because it acts as a de facto punishment while just playing by the rules that have been in place.

That's a pretty good point in favor of the 76ers, IMO.

  The other 29 teams are playing by the rules that have been in place as well. I don't think that claiming the league should delay attempts to prevent tanking because a team isn't trying to put a competitive team on the court and they want a high draft pick will fly. That's kind of like arguing for a delay in increasing the penalty for stealing because you'd planned to rob the liquor store to cover your electric bill.

Tanking for better odds of a high pick is allowed in the NBA.  Robbing the liquor store is not allowed...

  If tanking's allowed then an owner could tell the press his team deliberately lost games down the stretch to improve their draft position without fear of punishment from the league. I doubt that's the case.

You would agree, I assume, that 'tanking' has occurred in the NBA?  Everyone knows it, the league accepts it (as long as you don't come out in public and say that you're 'tanking') and it is surely the best, if not the only, way to rebuild quickly, or maybe at all. 

On the other hand, if you walk into a liquor store, point a gun at the cashier and demand money, the police and district attorney are not going to look the other way.  If you are apprehended, and they will attempt to identify and locate you, you will be charged with a crime.

  While this is a fairly pointless discussion, all you're basically saying is that if you're caught red-handed doing one thing you're in trouble, but if they don't have proof you did something else you get away with it. Obviously the fact that it's hard to prove something doesn't mean it's "allowed" to happen. That's like saying you're allowed to cheat on your taxes or commit perjury, since both of those things happen on a regular basis without punishment.

What I am 'basically saying' is that your original comparison of tanking in the NBA to robbing a liquour store is terribly flawed. 

The NBA front office knows that franchises are tanking but does not attempt to sanction such teams.  When the appropriate government agencies are aware of tax cheating or commission of perjury, criminal prosecutions often follow.  The NBA cannot 'prove' tanking, but in some (most) instances, the IRS, etc. is able to 'prove' a violation or criminal misconduct.  For that reason alone, your analogy left much to be desired...

  That would be because I never tried to compare tanking to robbing a liquor store. I said a team that's tanking complaining about impending rule changes to prevent tanking is like someone who's about to break a law complaining because the penalty for breaking that law is increasing. I'm not sure you understand this (many people here don't seem to) but an analogy  works if certain similarities between two things exist, not just if all things between the two are the similar.

  Also, someone working for the government can "know" that someone's committing perjury or breaking another law without being able to "prove" it. Just like with tanking. I'd also say it's unlikely that the IRS doesn't prove most instances of tax cheating, but like the rest of this discussion that's not that important.

Robbing a liquour store is already illegal - there are statutes which prohibit this kind of activity.  Maybe there is an NBA by-law prohibiting 'tanking' but I am not aware of it.  Perhaps you might be so kind as to provide specific information about that, if it exists.  There may be some elements of an analogy which pertain to both compared things, and some which may not, but if the most fundamental aspect (as determined by the context of the specific discussion, in this case, illegal acts and punishments for them) for each compared thing is totally different, then it is an analogy which is fatally flawed.  Maybe this had never occurred to you before?

As to your second point, it's irrelevant as to whether there is knowledge of the commission of a criminal act, as what is relevant here is whether or not the act itself is 'criminal' in nature.  To my knowledge, there is no specific by-law prohibiting 'tanking' so it's pointless to attempt to compare these fundamentally different things.  Of course, you keep pointing out the relative unimportance of what we are discussing, but then again, you keep participating in the discussion.  Obviously, there must be something of real interest to you here... ;)

Re: 76ers fighting NBAs lottery changes
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2014, 03:24:38 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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all those that claim the lottery is not fixed, can you explain how Cleveland won the lottery 2 years out of four that the King was gone?

Well, when a team misses the postseason in the NBA, they enter what's known as the Draft Lottery. This is a process, publicly broadcast and audited every year, when each team that missed the playoffs is given separately weighted odds in the lottery, which is held to determine which team will end up with the number one pick. Teams are given different odds of winning it based on their record, so the worst team has the highest number of opportunities to "win" the lottery and get the number one pick.

Since LeBron left, the Cavs have been in the draft lottery. Their first number one pick, that turned into Kyrie Irving, was actually the Clippers pick, acquired in the Baron Davis trade. Since Cleveland hasn't traded their first round picks since LeBron left, they've been in the draft lottery ever since, and have been fortunate enough to come out on top in two years since.

I'm glad you asked this question -- it takes real courage to admit that you don't understand how something works, especially on the internet, where knowledge is just one Google search away.

Oh, Lord, I almost fell off my chair reading this - thank you for your wonderfully arch comment... :)