Author Topic: Waiters: I want to start (Trade him to us for the 3-way deal), thread.  (Read 7929 times)

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Offline Vox_Populi

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Yep. Waiters is a plus defender on a team where few can actually play it.
He's not a plus defender. He's a better defender than Jarret Jack and Kyrie Irving for whom he was most often substituted. Which is to say he's not a horrific defender, he's still not a good defender.

He's especially lazy in transition defense, he loves to watch his shot instead of getting back or even crashing the glass.

Raw on/off tells you almost nothing about a player's ability.
1. He's a plus defender on a team where few people play it. I didn't call him a good one.
2. The Cavs 3rd most used lineup, and the one Waiters played most in, also had Irving and Jack.
3. The Cavs were bad. Bad teams frequently use different lineups. They had 7 lineups that played at least 100 minutes. More than the Celtics, Magic, Lakers, and even the 76ers. Waiters still managed to have a positive "on" with all this turnover. And, like I pointed out earlier, he often played with defensive donkeys Irving and Jack. That tells you something of his ability.
4. Waiters is prone to lapses in concentration and laziness, like everyone, but from my own personal viewing, he's shown enough to prove he can be a good defender.

Offline Moranis

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And his issues with shooting are more with selection and his team's overall incompetence than a lack of ability.

I am very pessimistic about players with poor shot selection learning to control themselves.  Waiters seems like an especially poor candidate for improving his shot selection, since he seems to feel entitled to a starting role and a certain number of shots in the offense.

Doesn't bode well much for AB whose shot selection is equally abysmal. Otherwise I guess we have read different things. Either way the kid has star potential and I would definitely take him on my team. Moot point though. Unlikely to happen.

When I watch Avery Bradley, he tends to look like he is taking the shots that he is supposed to be taking.  When I watch Dion Waiters, he looks like he is taking the shots that he thinks he is supposed to be taking.
And yet Waiters is as efficient as Bradley.
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Offline bucknersrevenge

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And his issues with shooting are more with selection and his team's overall incompetence than a lack of ability.

I am very pessimistic about players with poor shot selection learning to control themselves.  Waiters seems like an especially poor candidate for improving his shot selection, since he seems to feel entitled to a starting role and a certain number of shots in the offense.

Doesn't bode well much for AB whose shot selection is equally abysmal. Otherwise I guess we have read different things. Either way the kid has star potential and I would definitely take him on my team. Moot point though. Unlikely to happen.

When I watch Avery Bradley, he tends to look like he is taking the shots that he is supposed to be taking.  When I watch Dion Waiters, he looks like he is taking the shots that he thinks he is supposed to be taking.

You mean someone on our staff is telling him that he should be taking one-dribble, pullup 21-footers? Whoever that is needs to get fired.
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Offline Fafnir

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Yep. Waiters is a plus defender on a team where few can actually play it.
He's not a plus defender. He's a better defender than Jarret Jack and Kyrie Irving for whom he was most often substituted. Which is to say he's not a horrific defender, he's still not a good defender.

He's especially lazy in transition defense, he loves to watch his shot instead of getting back or even crashing the glass.

Raw on/off tells you almost nothing about a player's ability.
1. He's a plus defender on a team where few people play it.
If he's not a good defender, he's not a plus defender. A plus defender is someone who adds value to his team with his defense on the court. Being somewhat less bad than your backup and/or backcourt running mates doesn't make you a "plus defender"

Edit: I agree he has the potential to become solid on that end, but so does Kyrie Irving with his physical talents.

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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I think James Young will surprise people. He did very well on Kentucky, and has a lot of room to grow. Don't forget he was the 3rd youngest in the draft, and probably over the next year or 2 will make huge strides in skill and strength .

I just see waiters coming off the bench.

Offline Vox_Populi

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Yep. Waiters is a plus defender on a team where few can actually play it.
He's not a plus defender. He's a better defender than Jarret Jack and Kyrie Irving for whom he was most often substituted. Which is to say he's not a horrific defender, he's still not a good defender.

He's especially lazy in transition defense, he loves to watch his shot instead of getting back or even crashing the glass.

Raw on/off tells you almost nothing about a player's ability.
1. He's a plus defender on a team where few people play it.
If he's not a good defender, he's not a plus defender. A plus defender is someone who adds value to his team with his defense on the court. Being somewhat less bad than your backup and/or backcourt running mates doesn't make you a "plus defender"

Edit: I agree he has the potential to become solid on that end, but so does Kyrie Irving with his physical talents.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Semantics. :)

Well, hopefully James teaches them something.

Offline LooseCannon

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Edit: I agree he has the potential to become solid on that end, but so does Kyrie Irving with his physical talents.

There are many players who have the physical tools to be solid defenders.  I just don't think Waiters has the mentality to be a solid defender.  I think his role in the NBA is offense off the bench and I want no part of him until he's ready to accept a reserve role.  I think he'll probably have to go through free agency before he is humbled enough to make him ready.
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Offline kozlodoev

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A plus defender is someone who adds value to his team with his defense on the court.
A plus defender is someone who is good with his glove. This term really has no meaning outside of baseball.
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Offline LooseCannon

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A plus defender is someone who adds value to his team with his defense on the court.
A plus defender is someone who is good with his glove. This term really has no meaning outside of baseball.

A plus defender is someone who is an above-average at defense.
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Offline Fafnir

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A plus defender is someone who adds value to his team with his defense on the court.
A plus defender is someone who is good with his glove. This term really has no meaning outside of baseball.
Why do you say that?

Do you think "plus defender" is ambiguous in a basketball context?

Or do you just want to be pedantic again?

Edit: Third option, you're morally offended that terms can cross-pollinate across sports.

Offline Fafnir

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Semantics. :)
So you agree he's a bad defender (but better than Jack/Irving) but just disagree with how I definite "plus defender"?

Offline Vox_Populi

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Semantics. :)
So you agree he's a bad defender (but better than Jack/Irving) but just disagree with how I definite "plus defender"?
Yeah. Being better than those two isn't hard, but it suggests he's giving some effort.