Author Topic: Waiters: I want to start (Trade him to us for the 3-way deal), thread.  (Read 7927 times)

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Offline LooseCannon

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I'd like to see someone try to convince me that Waiters is better than Thornton.
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Offline bucknersrevenge

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How much difference is there between Dion Waiters and MarShon Brooks?  Their defense certainly seems close to the same.
Waiters is significantly better than Brooks.

How so?

Do you deny my comparison of their defense as basically equivalent, partly due to a similar lack of effort?

Actually from what I read during the season this couldn't be further from the truth. And it goes part in parcel to the issues he had with his PG. Basically Irving got a different set of rules than the rest of the team and basically took whole nights off at the defensive end while Waiters gave far more effort. Waiters challenged him in front of the team. Irving didn't like that.

As for being a contrast with AB. Waiters is a better scorer, better playmaker, better ballhandler, and overall his ceiling offensively is about 10 times higher than ABs. That kid is on the cusp of being a gifted offensive talent who does play above average defense. I'd take him on my team anyday.
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Offline Moranis

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Waiters is a glorified sixth man.

Celtics don't need him right now.
He also would have been the best scorer on the Celtics last year.  Something Boston desperately needs.

  His scoring last year was roughly on the order of Bradley's.
per 36
Waiters 19.3 points, 36.8% from three, 45.5% from two, 68.5% from free, 1.12 points per shot
Bradley 17.3 points, 39.5% from three, 45.1% from two, 80.4% from free, 1.08 points per shot
Green 17.7 points, 34.1% from three, 44.8% from two, 79.5% from free, 1.18 points per shot

Thus, Waiters was 2 points per 36 better than Bradley and 1.6 per 36 better than Green.  And Waiters did all this as his teams 2nd or 3rd option (once Deng was there Waiters was basically the 3rd option).

Waiters would have been Boston's leading scorer last year.  He shot just as well as Bradley and Green did as well, so it isn't like you lose a bunch of inefficiency.
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Offline Fafnir

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So the ability to use more possessions on offense makes him a "better" scorer? Waiters shoots slightly more than Green/Bradley, I fail to see how that makes him a better scorer.

Per36 Waiters used 21.8 possessions on offense, Bradley 18.9, and Green 19.1.

Luol Deng's usage for Cleveland was 20, far lower than Waiters for the season and during the time when Waiters played with Deng. Deng was tied for the 4th option with Spencer Hawes/CJ Miles.

Edit: Also it really helps if you count free throws as shots.

Waiters PPS (not ignoring free throw) = 1.01
Bradley = 1.02
Green = 1.04

Free throws are awesomely efficient, but they do use up a possession on the basketball court.

Offline BballTim

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Waiters is a glorified sixth man.

Celtics don't need him right now.
He also would have been the best scorer on the Celtics last year.  Something Boston desperately needs.

  His scoring last year was roughly on the order of Bradley's.
per 36
Waiters 19.3 points, 36.8% from three, 45.5% from two, 68.5% from free, 1.12 points per shot
Bradley 17.3 points, 39.5% from three, 45.1% from two, 80.4% from free, 1.08 points per shot
Green 17.7 points, 34.1% from three, 44.8% from two, 79.5% from free, 1.18 points per shot

Thus, Waiters was 2 points per 36 better than Bradley and 1.6 per 36 better than Green.  And Waiters did all this as his teams 2nd or 3rd option (once Deng was there Waiters was basically the 3rd option).

Waiters would have been Boston's leading scorer last year.  He shot just as well as Bradley and Green did as well, so it isn't like you lose a bunch of inefficiency.

  First of all, he wasn't a 3rd option behind Deng. Secondly, making him 1st option instead of 2nd option would make it harder for him to score. He might have been the leading scorer, but only by a hair. Basically, if Bradley took 1 more shot per36 he'd have the same stats as Waiters.

Offline Fred Roberts

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I've never seen him play, but in the clips he looks like a man on offense. He's thick, no?

Heard terrible things regarding his D, so forget about if that's the case.

Can't totally hate the attitude. You think you're good -- and you'd better in the NBA -- you [dang] well better want to be a starter. I got no problem with that. If he sulks, that's another story.

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
How much difference is there between Dion Waiters and MarShon Brooks?  Their defense certainly seems close to the same.

I bet Marshon has better footwork, he didn't play zone in college all the time.

Bottom Line = we have better guards already
                     we have a logjam at guard.

Offline Vox_Populi

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How much difference is there between Dion Waiters and MarShon Brooks?  Their defense certainly seems close to the same.
Waiters is significantly better than Brooks.

How so?

Do you deny my comparison of their defense as basically equivalent, partly due to a similar lack of effort?

Actually from what I read during the season this couldn't be further from the truth. And it goes part in parcel to the issues he had with his PG. Basically Irving got a different set of rules than the rest of the team and basically took whole nights off at the defensive end while Waiters gave far more effort. Waiters challenged him in front of the team. Irving didn't like that.

As for being a contrast with AB. Waiters is a better scorer, better playmaker, better ballhandler, and overall his ceiling offensively is about 10 times higher than ABs. That kid is on the cusp of being a gifted offensive talent who does play above average defense. I'd take him on my team anyday.
Yep. Waiters is a plus defender on a team where few can actually play it. Cleveland were 3 points better defensively with him on the court, although they were still terrible. He's a multifaceted offensive player too. And his issues with shooting are more with selection and his team's overall incompetence than a lack of ability. He shot 42% on spot up 3s.

He has problems, but if we're comparing him to Bradley I think he's obviously better. Bradley's struggles with layups, dribbling and passing are well documented enough.

Offline GetLucky

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I want to start for the Cavaliers too. I guess we both can't get what we want.

Offline KG Living Legend

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http://youtu.be/vYQaZyVVt9o


 ROTFL. If you wanted the waiter before. You will not after watching this. Look how hard he makes the game look.

Offline Fafnir

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Yep. Waiters is a plus defender on a team where few can actually play it.
He's not a plus defender. He's a better defender than Jarret Jack and Kyrie Irving for whom he was most often substituted. Which is to say he's not a horrific defender, he's still not a good defender.

He's especially lazy in transition defense, he loves to watch his shot instead of getting back or even crashing the glass.

Raw on/off tells you almost nothing about a player's ability.

Offline LooseCannon

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Do you deny my comparison of their defense as basically equivalent, partly due to a similar lack of effort?

Actually from what I read during the season this couldn't be further from the truth. And it goes part in parcel to the issues he had with his PG. Basically Irving got a different set of rules than the rest of the team and basically took whole nights off at the defensive end while Waiters gave far more effort. Waiters challenged him in front of the team. Irving didn't like that.

We must be reading different things, because I read about Waiters having been benched due to poor defense.  If Waiters is criticizing Irving for not getting punished for a lack of effort, it's because Irving has a similar lack of effort, not because Waiters tries harder, and he was only complaining about Irving getting away with doing exactly the same thing that he gets punished for.  Waiters has also reportedly whined about Irving not passing him the ball enough. 
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Offline LooseCannon

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And his issues with shooting are more with selection and his team's overall incompetence than a lack of ability.

I am very pessimistic about players with poor shot selection learning to control themselves.  Waiters seems like an especially poor candidate for improving his shot selection, since he seems to feel entitled to a starting role and a certain number of shots in the offense.
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Offline bucknersrevenge

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And his issues with shooting are more with selection and his team's overall incompetence than a lack of ability.

I am very pessimistic about players with poor shot selection learning to control themselves.  Waiters seems like an especially poor candidate for improving his shot selection, since he seems to feel entitled to a starting role and a certain number of shots in the offense.

Doesn't bode well much for AB whose shot selection is equally abysmal. Otherwise I guess we have read different things. Either way the kid has star potential and I would definitely take him on my team. Moot point though. Unlikely to happen.
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Offline LooseCannon

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And his issues with shooting are more with selection and his team's overall incompetence than a lack of ability.

I am very pessimistic about players with poor shot selection learning to control themselves.  Waiters seems like an especially poor candidate for improving his shot selection, since he seems to feel entitled to a starting role and a certain number of shots in the offense.

Doesn't bode well much for AB whose shot selection is equally abysmal. Otherwise I guess we have read different things. Either way the kid has star potential and I would definitely take him on my team. Moot point though. Unlikely to happen.

When I watch Avery Bradley, he tends to look like he is taking the shots that he is supposed to be taking.  When I watch Dion Waiters, he looks like he is taking the shots that he thinks he is supposed to be taking.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference