Author Topic: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?  (Read 6043 times)

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Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2014, 03:14:12 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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At this point it's time to admit that Green is the epitome of "Average".  Just looked at EFF and he's like the 18th best player at his own position.  He doesn't crack the top 100 players in the league.

Does basketball have a "Mendoza line"?    Call it the "Jeff Green Line".   Our entire roster is filled with mediocrity.  Not terrible.  Not great.  Just run of the mill basketball players.  Rondo is the lone exception.


FYI, the Mendoza line in baseball is awful not "average." Mendoza hit below .200 in several seasons. I'd say the equivalent of the Mendoza line in hoops would be something like Ricky Rubio's shooting.

I agree with everything you're saying about Green being the ultimate average player though.

I remember many many years ago, before we had any advanced stats or the like, someone on the Celts broadcast team calculated the average values of height, PPG, RPG and APG for the league and the closest guy was Louis Orr (weight obviously was not one of the variables). Cousy or Heinsohn mentioned it I think.

I'd be cool putting Green right at the "Louis Orr line."

In fact I just checked and here are the career per-36 numbers of Orr and Green:

Orr   14.9/5.7/2.3, 13.4 PER
Green 15.6/5.6/1.8, 13.1 PER


Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2014, 03:24:17 PM »

Offline cltc5

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  His heart?  Not the right players?  Gimmie a freakin break.   The guys a professional!  Freakin Kuwai Leonard has done more!  If He can string together 2-3 consistent games there's no reason he can't do it for the majority of the season.  If it's mental, Celtics need to get it fixed or get rid of him.  We struggle to win games while uncle Jeff takes a nap on his 4 point nights.  Name another player in the league that has as many up and down games and has done so year after year as Jeff Green.  We dont know if he's improving or Digressing...EVER!  And it's not fair to a team that is trying to move forward to have someone on their team that may or may not show up to battle with you.  His chances are done...he pulls this crap this year...send him out for the best trade available.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2014, 04:02:22 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  ...

Can't you ask this question of pretty much ALL the Celtic players this year?

Bradley had 16 games of 20+ this year.  He also had 17 of 9 or less.
Sully had 15 games of 20+.   He had 20 games of 9 or less.
Bass had 22 games of 16+.   He also had 36 games of 9 or less.
Jordan Crawford had 14 of his 39 games with us that were 16+.  And 9 that were 9 or less.
Olynyk had 10 games of 16+.  He also had 48 of 9 or less.
Kris Humphries had 11 games of 15+.   And he had 44 of 9 or less.

Jeff Green had 22 games of 20+.  He had only 14 of 9 or less.

How was Jeff Green any more 'inconsistent' than the rest of the this whole tanking team?

Clearly , each of these players has shown that they could "BRING IT".   Why the heck didn't they BRING IT every game?

Good gawd.  IT WAS A TANKING SEASON!!!

Danny Ainge came flat out and stated that they purposely had players working on skills, taking shots they were not comfortable with and other wise doing "development" things in games.

They messed with the roster all season, with absolutely no consistency in the starting lineup (or even the bench).

They went through the whole season with no true center.

They had NO NBA CALIBER POINT GUARD in the vast majority of their games!

They had different players suddenly taking 5 billion shots in some games and then none in others! 

They had lots of games were every single player on the roster seemed to take 3 shots!

This team was setup and managed as a whole to be inconsistent and under performing.

I find the idea that we should freak out and be hyper critical because individual players had sporadic, inconsistent production through all that to be baffling.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2014, 04:15:59 PM »

Offline Hawkeye199

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  ...

Can't you ask this question of pretty much ALL the Celtic players this year?

Bradley had 16 games of 20+ this year.  He also had 17 of 9 or less.
Sully had 15 games of 20+.   He had 20 games of 9 or less.
Bass had 22 games of 16+.   He also had 36 games of 9 or less.
Jordan Crawford had 14 of his 39 games with us that were 16+.  And 9 that were 9 or less.
Olynyk had 10 games of 16+.  He also had 48 of 9 or less.
Kris Humphries had 11 games of 15+.   And he had 44 of 9 or less.

Jeff Green had 22 games of 20+.  He had only 14 of 9 or less.

How was Jeff Green any more 'inconsistent' than the rest of the this whole tanking team?

Clearly , each of these players has shown that they could "BRING IT".   Why the heck didn't they BRING IT every game?

Good gawd.  IT WAS A TANKING SEASON!!!

Danny Ainge came flat out and stated that they purposely had players working on skills, taking shots they were not comfortable with and other wise doing "development" things in games.

They messed with the roster all season, with absolutely no consistency in the starting lineup (or even the bench).

They went through the whole season with no true center.

They had NO NBA CALIBER POINT GUARD in the vast majority of their games!

They had different players suddenly taking 5 billion shots in some games and then none in others! 

They had lots of games were every single player on the roster seemed to take 3 shots!

This team was setup and managed as a whole to be inconsistent and under performing.

I find the idea that we should freak out and be hyper critical because individual players had sporadic, inconsistent production through all that to be baffling.

 there is a quote that says "front offices tank players and coachs don't"
zach lavine-jeremy lin-tyus jones
jeremy lamb-tyshen prince-Andre miller
will barton- beljina-
Kevin love-kevin garnet-payne
Karl anthoney Towns-JJ hickson

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2014, 04:19:24 PM »

Offline Chris22

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Green was the 22nd ranked small forward in PER last season.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2014, 05:00:49 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  ...

Can't you ask this question of pretty much ALL the Celtic players this year?

Bradley had 16 games of 20+ this year.  He also had 17 of 9 or less.
Sully had 15 games of 20+.   He had 20 games of 9 or less.
Bass had 22 games of 16+.   He also had 36 games of 9 or less.
Jordan Crawford had 14 of his 39 games with us that were 16+.  And 9 that were 9 or less.
Olynyk had 10 games of 16+.  He also had 48 of 9 or less.
Kris Humphries had 11 games of 15+.   And he had 44 of 9 or less.

Jeff Green had 22 games of 20+.  He had only 14 of 9 or less.

How was Jeff Green any more 'inconsistent' than the rest of the this whole tanking team?

Clearly , each of these players has shown that they could "BRING IT".   Why the heck didn't they BRING IT every game?

Good gawd.  IT WAS A TANKING SEASON!!!

Danny Ainge came flat out and stated that they purposely had players working on skills, taking shots they were not comfortable with and other wise doing "development" things in games.

They messed with the roster all season, with absolutely no consistency in the starting lineup (or even the bench).

They went through the whole season with no true center.

They had NO NBA CALIBER POINT GUARD in the vast majority of their games!

They had different players suddenly taking 5 billion shots in some games and then none in others! 

They had lots of games were every single player on the roster seemed to take 3 shots!

This team was setup and managed as a whole to be inconsistent and under performing.

I find the idea that we should freak out and be hyper critical because individual players had sporadic, inconsistent production through all that to be baffling.

 there is a quote that says "front offices tank players and coachs don't"

I'm not sure I'm giving the coach a free pass there.

I'm not going to assert Stevens was "trying to lose".   But I have a hard time rationalizing some of his decisions as "trying to win".
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2014, 06:09:07 PM »

Offline Nerf DPOY

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Green was the 22nd ranked small forward in PER last season.

Here's that list....

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf


Tyreke Evans, Rudy Gay, and Michael Beasley are ranked (6), (7), and (9) respectively. Parsons and Batum are (13) and (14). I understand what PER is supposed to be but admittedly don't know anything about the formula, and didn't watch a significant amount of the games of any of the players I listed. That said, looking at that list after the top 5, the PER rankings might not be the best trump card in winning an argument.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2014, 06:13:11 PM »

Offline cltc5

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  ...

Can't you ask this question of pretty much ALL the Celtic players this year?

Bradley had 16 games of 20+ this year.  He also had 17 of 9 or less.
Sully had 15 games of 20+.   He had 20 games of 9 or less.
Bass had 22 games of 16+.   He also had 36 games of 9 or less.
Jordan Crawford had 14 of his 39 games with us that were 16+.  And 9 that were 9 or less.
Olynyk had 10 games of 16+.  He also had 48 of 9 or less.
Kris Humphries had 11 games of 15+.   And he had 44 of 9 or less.

Jeff Green had 22 games of 20+.  He had only 14 of 9 or less.

How was Jeff Green any more 'inconsistent' than the rest of the this whole tanking team?

Clearly , each of these players has shown that they could "BRING IT".   Why the heck didn't they BRING IT every game?

Good gawd.  IT WAS A TANKING SEASON!!!

Danny Ainge came flat out and stated that they purposely had players working on skills, taking shots they were not comfortable with and other wise doing "development" things in games.

They messed with the roster all season, with absolutely no consistency in the starting lineup (or even the bench).

They went through the whole season with no true center.

They had NO NBA CALIBER POINT GUARD in the vast majority of their games!

They had different players suddenly taking 5 billion shots in some games and then none in others! 

They had lots of games were every single player on the roster seemed to take 3 shots!

This team was setup and managed as a whole to be inconsistent and under performing.

I find the idea that we should freak out and be hyper critical because individual players had sporadic, inconsistent production through all that to be baffling.

So was Jeff green on tanking teams the other years he was here?

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2014, 06:23:25 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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He is fun to watch on nights he decides to be a factor.

Just a tease..of what he should be

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2014, 06:32:51 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Green was the 22nd ranked small forward in PER last season.

Here's that list....

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf


Tyreke Evans, Rudy Gay, and Michael Beasley are ranked (6), (7), and (9) respectively. Parsons and Batum are (13) and (14). I understand what PER is supposed to be but admittedly don't know anything about the formula, and didn't watch a significant amount of the games of any of the players I listed. That said, looking at that list after the top 5, the PER rankings might not be the best trump card in winning an argument.

Well, Jeff Green's utter mediocrity extends to other 'catch all' advanced stats. His WS/48 has only ever been above replacement 1 time in his 6 year career, and that was with OKC.

He's 134th overall in "Simple" ratings from 82 games. And that's only among players who played at least 40% of their team's minutes at any given position (so starters or guys who got significant rotational minutes).  There were only 168 players who qualified.

Opposing SF's routinely out performed him on an individual basis (http://www.82games.com/1314/13BOS13.HTM#bypos)

And the team played worse with him on the floor:

http://www.82games.com/1314/13BOS13.HTM#onoff

One of these in a vacuum is not really [dang]ing. Together they paint a pretty bad picture of Jeff Green as a player in 13-14. Below average not at or above average, below. 

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 06:56:42 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  ...



So was Jeff green on tanking teams the other years he was here?

I was addressing your complaints about THIS year.

He was otherwise only "here" for a few weeks of play at the end of 2010-11, missed ALL of 2011-12, then came back for 2012-13 -- the season of which you above said he, "BROUGHT IT".

In that season, he was obviously slowed for the first half by his recovery from open heart surgery, but for the last few months of the season was clearly one of our best 3 players on a consistent basis, especially down the critical stretch of the last 20 or so games of the season.  He was our best scorer during the playoffs that year.

Oh - but I forgot.  Mentioning the fact that Green had his chest ripped open and had to undergo a traumatic rehab that included having to learn how to walk again is ... "making excuses".

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2014, 07:21:18 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Green was the 22nd ranked small forward in PER last season.

Here's that list....

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf


Tyreke Evans, Rudy Gay, and Michael Beasley are ranked (6), (7), and (9) respectively. Parsons and Batum are (13) and (14). I understand what PER is supposed to be but admittedly don't know anything about the formula, and didn't watch a significant amount of the games of any of the players I listed. That said, looking at that list after the top 5, the PER rankings might not be the best trump card in winning an argument.

Well, Jeff Green's utter mediocrity extends to other 'catch all' advanced stats. His WS/48 has only ever been above replacement 1 time in his 6 year career, and that was with OKC.

He's 134th overall in "Simple" ratings from 82 games. And that's only among players who played at least 40% of their team's minutes at any given position (so starters or guys who got significant rotational minutes).  There were only 168 players who qualified.

Opposing SF's routinely out performed him on an individual basis (http://www.82games.com/1314/13BOS13.HTM#bypos)

And the team played worse with him on the floor:

http://www.82games.com/1314/13BOS13.HTM#onoff

One of these in a vacuum is not really [dang]ing. Together they paint a pretty bad picture of Jeff Green as a player in 13-14. Below average not at or above average, below.

Who was on the floor with Green most of the time?  Scroll up on the very same page, IP.

http://www.82games.com/1314/13BOS13.HTM#5man

Look at that very first lineup -- the one that was a gargantuan 372 minutes (3 times as large as any other 5-man unit Green was in last year):

Bradley-Crawford-Green-Bass-Sullinger   Off: .97, Def 1.03

Seriously.   Tell me you think that Green is the problem with that lineup.  With a straight face.

Now, his 2nd most-used lineup (124 minutes) starts to look better at PG, but maybe not so good elsewhere:

Rondo-Bayless-Green-Bass-Humphries  Off .96, Def 1.13

Again - are you telling me that GREEN is the problem with that lineup as well?

Ok, finally, let's move on to his THIRD most-used lineup (106 minutes):

Bradley-Crawford-Green-Bass-Humphries   Off 1.11, Def 1.15

Okay, small sample, but that one at least scored some points.   

So basically, right off the top, some 600 of Green's minutes -- and those lineups were primarily against STARTERS -- were spent with a chronically undersized front court.  The vast majority of those minutes had no real starting-quality point guard.  And the ones with (recovering) Rondo had one of the weakest defenders at SG I've ever seen in Bayless.

But all we can surmise from that is ... that Green is the problem?


In each of those lineups:

a) At which of the 5 positions were we more likely to have a matchup advantage on offense in most game?
b) At which of the 5 positions were we more likely to have a matchup advantage on defense in most games?
c) At which of the 5 positions were we more likely to have commanded a double-team by an opposing defense?
d) At which of the 5 positions were we more likely to have a length advantage over the typical opposing team?

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2014, 07:41:24 PM »

Offline cltc5

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I'm tired of people making excses for Jeff Green.  You look at some of his games the year after surgery...HE BROUGHT IT!  What the heck is his excuse for not giving the same effort this year?  ...




So was Jeff green on tanking teams the other years he was here?

I was addressing your complaints about THIS year.

He was otherwise only "here" for a few weeks of play at the end of 2010-11, missed ALL of 2011-12, then came back for 2012-13 -- the season of which you above said he, "BROUGHT IT".

In that season, he was obviously slowed for the first half by his recovery from open heart surgery, but for the last few months of the season was clearly one of our best 3 players on a consistent basis, especially down the critical stretch of the last 20 or so games of the season.  He was our best scorer during the playoffs that year.

Oh - but I forgot.  Mentioning the fact that Green had his chest ripped open and had to undergo a traumatic rehab that included having to learn how to walk again is ... "making excuses".
As mentioned in the post above his body of work in okc and Boston speaks for itself.  And yes your making excuses.  It's  the people around him, not Jeff green himself.  Come on.


Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2014, 08:06:23 PM »

Offline Mr October

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Green was the 22nd ranked small forward in PER last season.

Based on PER, we should replace Jeff Green with Michael Beasley or Nick Young, and we will somehow be a better team. Most advanced stats favor scorers over guys who play defense. And most advanced stats also favor players on a winning team. Michael Beasley benefited from playing with Lebron James. I can only image how awesome and yet overrated Green would have been as a member of the Miami Heat.

In the end, yes Green is an average starting small forward in the NBA. He is earning average starter money. He is not a max talent player, and shouldn't be judged as one.

I get that people question his effort. I do too. I always want more from our guys. I want more from rondo, Bradley, Sullinger, etc.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2014, 08:10:44 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Green is less than average and the numbers show it.