Author Topic: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?  (Read 6041 times)

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Offline Mr October

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A number of writers and fans have been asking for a Jeff Green trade for a while now, and the reason behind it is flawed.

With the old timers gone, we got to see Jeff Green forced into a number 1 scorer role. He wasn't very good at it. Then again, why would anyone with very good knowledge of the the game and his game in particular think that Green had the skills and mindset to be a successful number 1 or number 2 scorer?

Jeff Green isn't a guy who can create his own shot and put up 22 points per game like Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, Bryant, James, Anthony, George, Gay, DeRozan, etc. He lacks the one on one skills and the killer mindset. He is an excellent athlete and a nice versatile finisher who can sky for a dunk, or nail a three pointer. But you are never going to clear out for Jeff Green multiple times a game, and multiple games in a row.

In other words he is probably a nice 4th best player to have on a contender. That would put him in the company of Antoine Walker as a member of the Miami heat, or Derek Fisher, Shane Battier, Shawn Marion on the Mavs, old Ray Allen on the Heat, old Ginobili, etc.

Then writers and fans say that if he isn't a good number 2 option, we should trade him! Well, he isn't being paid like a number 2 option. He is being paid a touch more than Avery Bradley and Trevor Ariza. Are those guys must trade players too? Green is still a top 15 small forward in the NBA. Below him you are looking at Harrison Barns, DeMarre Caroll, Wilson Chandler, Terrance Ross, etc. Is that the calibur of small forward you would rather have? Why down grade our talent? So we can win 3 fewer games and move 1 or 2 spots higher in the lottery? And then if you lose out in the lottery, what do you have to show for it?

Players at other positions I rank as about 13th best at their respective positions are Ty Lawson, Aaron Afflalo, David Lee, and Greg Monroe. These guys all have talent, also aren't good enough to be 2nd best players or even 3rd best on a contender, and ultimately don't shift your win loss needle very much. And yet i have read a lot of pining for Afflalo and Monroe in particular. Yet Green is no good, and has to go. I find this confusing, and just chalk it up to people wanting change for change sake.

Considering he doesn't move the needle much, I am impartial about keeping or moving him. In the meantime having a top 13 small forward is better then not having one. Getting talent is really hard. Throwing away the second best player on our team for practically nothing is wasteful. Until the Rondo situation is resolved, I am happy to keep Green around. He will then become a good 4th man for us, a trade piece in a package for an upgrade, or we let him expire so that we can pay someone else who increases the talent of the team.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:09:15 PM by Mr October »

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 02:02:57 PM »

Offline 2short

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One thing to keep in mind is the number of shots green takes.  He averaged 17 points a game and took 14 shots.   A lot of the guys averaging 20 pts a game are taking more than 14 shots!
I'm fine with jeff, like his defense, wish he would be more consistent and rebound better.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 02:03:37 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Really?  I think a lot of posters here would disagree and call Green a "big pile of #2".    8)

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 02:05:20 PM »

Offline Mr October

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 02:09:22 PM »

Offline Cman

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Do you want to resign him for a Parsons-like deal next summer? Are you okay if he bolts next summer for a Parsons-like deal elsewhere, leaving the Cs with nothing?

I think the above is what is driving a lot of the trade ideas. He will probably command big bucks next summer, and perhaps bigger than the Cs want to spend. So, might be better to trade him now.
Celtics fan for life.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 02:22:07 PM »

Offline Mr October

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Do you want to resign him for a Parsons-like deal next summer? Are you okay if he bolts next summer for a Parsons-like deal elsewhere, leaving the Cs with nothing?

I think the above is what is driving a lot of the trade ideas. He will probably command big bucks next summer, and perhaps bigger than the Cs want to spend. So, might be better to trade him now.

I am cool with him opening up cap space for the Celtics. Ultimately i think that is his fate here. When his salary and others come off the books we can try to pay a center or an all star to pair with Rondo.

He can also be sign and traded, even though that option is a little rare.

With Evan Turner and James Young on board, we have 2 guys that have a couple years to audition as a replacement as well.

I have no interest in paying Green near max money. That would be foolish and i would lose all hope in Ainge. I also dont think the Market will be that high for Green. At 28 years old he is in his prime now. The only ceiling left is if he can become a threat as a floor spreading 3 point shooter. Parsons and Hayward still have a mystical ceiling (that i dont see) above them.

Even all last year fans and writers wanted to trade Green when they considered him to have 2 1/2 years left on his deal.

I think people want to trade him because they see his body and leaping ability and have placed unrealistic expectation for him.

I would like to see him rebound more as would anyone. But most small forwards aren't killer rebounders. I think small forwards at his level or below player ranking-wise mostly float around 5-6 rebounds per 36 minutes.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:40:10 PM by Mr October »

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 02:23:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I was pretty high on Green when he was younger.  He looked like a guy who could average 18-19 points efficiently with solid defense and rebounding.

At this point it's time to admit that Green is the epitome of "Average".  Just looked at EFF and he's like the 18th best player at his own position.  He doesn't crack the top 100 players in the league.

Does basketball have a "Mendoza line"?    Call it the "Jeff Green Line".   Our entire roster is filled with mediocrity.  Not terrible.  Not great.  Just run of the mill basketball players.  Rondo is the lone exception.

It's a team full of quarters and Ainge has been frantically trying to combine 4-5 of them to get a dollar.

Green probably isn't overpaid at $9 mil, but he's basically interchangeable with Evan Turner... who makes a lot less.   Turner is probably just slightly below the "Jeff Green line". 

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 02:29:00 PM »

Offline Mr October

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I was pretty high on Green when he was younger.  He looked like a guy who could average 18-19 points efficiently with solid defense and rebounding.

At this point it's time to admit that Green is the epitome of "Average".  Just looked at EFF and he's like the 18th best player at his own position.  He doesn't crack the top 100 players in the league.

Does basketball have a "Mendoza line"?    Call it the "Jeff Green Line".   Our entire roster is filled with mediocrity.  Not terrible.  Not great.  Just run of the mill basketball players.  Rondo is the lone exception.

It's a team full of quarters and Ainge has been frantically trying to combine 4-5 of them to get a dollar.

To stick with your money analogy, i would say Rondo is either 50 cent coin or a dollar.
Green, Bradley, Smart, and maybe Sullinger are quarters.
Then comes a stack of dimes: Thornton, Young, Bass, Olynyk, Zeller, Turner, maybe Young.
Faverani is a nickel. Anthony is maybe a penny.
Wallace is maybe a penny due to his contract? Something worse?

Getting another dollar or 2 on this team is gonna be tough.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 02:29:37 PM »

Offline gpap

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Alot of Jeff Green threads lately.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 02:33:09 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Also when ranking payers by stats, defense usually doesn't get ranked well. And in terms of talent at each position, i think shooting guard and small forward are the weakest 2 positions. Take away James and Durant and the small forward position looks bleak compared to point, power forward and even center.

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2014, 02:35:33 PM »

Offline Mr October

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Alot of Jeff Green threads lately.

It must be the middle of summer. Normally i like to avoid so many threads on similar topics. But I thought this one could focus more on just why do people want to trade Green so badly. And is he being judged on being compared to max level talent when he has never been a max player?

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2014, 02:39:37 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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At some point we have to ask ourselves, Is it Jeff Green we want to trade, or is it ourselves?

Aren't we all Jeff Green, somehow?

Its not your fault.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 02:56:00 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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What i am wondering is why do people want to unload Green when is is being paid market value for his skills and position?

He is a top 15 small forward. I would take him at 9 million over Hayward or Parsons at 15-16 million any day.

And i certainly don't want to downgrade to the next tier of small forwards like Wilson Chandler, Matt Barns,  Thabo Shefolosa, Nick Young etc.

Do you want to resign him for a Parsons-like deal next summer? Are you okay if he bolts next summer for a Parsons-like deal elsewhere, leaving the Cs with nothing?

I think the above is what is driving a lot of the trade ideas. He will probably command big bucks next summer, and perhaps bigger than the Cs want to spend. So, might be better to trade him now.

One of the problems with trying to trade Green is valuation.   Because Green has a player option for 2015-16, his contract is either 9M for one year (if he opts out) or 18M for two years (if he opts in).

Whether he opts in or out next year will depend on a lot of factors that won't be known for some time.  If he has another 'meh' year (for whatever reason - his fault, tanking team underutilizing him, whatever) then he most likely will opt-in.   But not necessarily.  What if he has been traded to a crap team situation that he doesn't want to stay in?

If he has a very good year, he may opt-out, looking for a bigger contract.   But not necessarily.  Maybe he opts-in, in order to wait for the new TV contract to boost the cap number and thus all new contracts.

Different teams that might trade for him would have different ways of looking at those variables.   A team that needs a solid SF and likes Green might want him to opt-in.   A team that is getting him primarily as salary match might want him to opt-out.

The net result is that how you value Green for trade purposes is extremely wide ranging.   This will likely make it very difficult for Danny to come to terms in trading him --- and that assumes that he even wants to trade him.

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Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2014, 02:58:04 PM »

Offline gpap

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Alot of Jeff Green threads lately.

It must be the middle of summer. Normally i like to avoid so many threads on similar topics. But I thought this one could focus more on just why do people want to trade Green so badly. And is he being judged on being compared to max level talent when he has never been a max player?

I just think he's someone who should never have been traded to the Celtics.

Either way, he hasn't lived up to expectations as a lottery pick in the '07 draft.

Usually with guys like that, 50% of the fans like him and the other 50% of fans think he's not a good player.

Guess what that means?

He isn't a good player (lol.)

Re: Jeff Green isn't a number 2 player, so we have to trade him?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2014, 03:04:35 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Do you want to resign him for a Parsons-like deal next summer? Are you okay if he bolts next summer for a Parsons-like deal elsewhere, leaving the Cs with nothing?

I think the above is what is driving a lot of the trade ideas. He will probably command big bucks next summer, and perhaps bigger than the Cs want to spend. So, might be better to trade him now.

What if Jeff Green is the sort of player who would take less than he could get on the free agent market because he likes the environment he has in Boston?  There are a lot of ifs involved.  I'm ok with having some uncertainty in the future, but some people seem to panic if the future isn't a clear path.
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