Author Topic: Cleveland looking for nonguaranteed contracts; Chance to trade Bogans?  (Read 13174 times)

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Offline saltlover

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If Cleveland is attempting to acquire non-guaranteed salary to include in a deal for Love, it is, most likely, because they are essentially trying to trade Love for Wiggins straight up, but the salaries won’t match.  If they were to trade Love for Wiggins (30 days after Wiggins signed his contract), they would need to send an additional $5.2 million if such a trade would leave Cleveland under the luxury tax (which, given their current roster, it would), or an additional $7 million if such a trade would leave Cleveland over the luxury tax (possible if they add another vet or two between now and then).  There are no players on Cleveland’s current roster who isn’t a veteran (and thus someone LeBron wants to stay, namely Varejao) that can make up that $7 million difference, and only one who can make up the $5.2 million difference – Anthony Bennett.  While Bennett was relatively disappointing for a #1 overall pick, he still has positive value, and it makes sense they would balk at Minnesota demanding both Wiggins and Bennett.  But since the deal won’t work due to the CBA without Bennett, Minnesota gets to keep asking for the pair.

So Cleveland needs to come up with $5.2 million in non-guaranteed contracts, so they can offer Wiggins and the filler for Love.  These contracts need to stay non-guaranteed until at least 60 days from when they are acquired, as that is the earliest these contracts can be added into a deal for Love.  Furthermore, Cleveland doesn’t have much, if any, cap room left, so these contracts, for the most part, need to be for the minimum salary, since you’re allowed to take on as many minimum contracts as you want (as long as you’re not breaking some other rule about roster size or the hard cap).  Below is a list of contracts, by team, that meet the following requirements:

1)   Cleveland can acquire them (are a minimum salary, has enough cap room (less than $2 million,) didn’t recently trade them like Henry Sims)
2)   Are completely non-guaranteed through October 1st
3)   Are not a player that the current team values highly (like Patrick Beverly), as those aren’t the right kind of players to use as simply salary filler

(All data from shamsports)

Boston: Chris Johnson ($915,243), Chris Babb ($816,482) – Total: $1,732,725
Brooklyn: Jorge Gutierrez ($816,482)
Houston: Josh Powell ($1,310,286)
Milwaukee: Chris Wright ($915,243)
Orlando: Dewayne Dedmon ($816,482)
Philadelphia: Casper Ware ($816,482), Hollis Thompson ($816,482), Brandon Davies ($816,482), Elliot Williams ($981,084) – Total: $3,430,530
Toronto: Diante Garret ($915,243)
Utah: Malcolm Thomas ($948,163), John Lucas III ($1,600,000) – Total: $2,548,163
(Note: John Lucas III may make too much to fit in Cleveland’s cap room, since he’s not a minimum salary player.)

Anyway, we either have the second or third most amount of non-guaranteed salary for Cleveland to use.  However, our non-guaranteed plus Philly’s still does not get Cleveland to the magic number of $5.2 million – they’re short by under $100k.  Philly also has Jarvis Varnado, who has $75k of his $915,243 salary guaranteed – that’s a nominal sum that probably gets made up by a team sending the other cash.  Accordingly, Cleveland probably does best if they acquire all of Philly’s and Utah’s non-guaranteed deals, but if they can’t absorb Lucas, taking Babb and Johnson plus all of Philly’s (including Varnado’s) would work for them too.  It likely would cost them some second round picks to encourage the teams to play along.

Offline LooseCannon

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Why should Cleveland give future #1s along with Wiggins?

Wiggins' potential alone doesn't account for Love's proven production.

In terms of trade value, sure it does, especially when you acknowledge that Love is gone in a year.

The Dwight Howard deal didn't include anybody of Wiggins' potential, nor did the CP3 deal, the KG deal, the Carmelo deal, etc., etc.  Wiggins alone is more than the Twolves can realistically hope for.

Those deals all involved players who had at least actually proven they could play in the NBA, cap relief, and a wealth of draft picks.  Wiggins *looks* good, but he has not yet done anything in the league.  That's way too much of a gamble for Minnesota and they absolutely should be looking for more than just Wiggins.

Would you rather have David Lee's big contract and Klay Thompson's soon-to-be big contract, or Wiggins and cap relief?

Would Glen Taylor and Flip Saunders want the same thing you want?
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Online Roy H.

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Why should Cleveland give future #1s along with Wiggins?

Wiggins' potential alone doesn't account for Love's proven production.

In terms of trade value, sure it does, especially when you acknowledge that Love is gone in a year.

The Dwight Howard deal didn't include anybody of Wiggins' potential, nor did the CP3 deal, the KG deal, the Carmelo deal, etc., etc.  Wiggins alone is more than the Twolves can realistically hope for.

Those deals all involved players who had at least actually proven they could play in the NBA, cap relief, and a wealth of draft picks.  Wiggins *looks* good, but he has not yet done anything in the league.  That's way too much of a gamble for Minnesota and they absolutely should be looking for more than just Wiggins.

Would you rather have David Lee's big contract and Klay Thompson's soon-to-be big contract, or Wiggins and cap relief?

Would Glen Taylor and Flip Saunders want the same thing you want?

A cost-controlled potential superstar?  You'd hope that the guys running a professional team would prefer that.


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Offline D.o.s.

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While I don't speak for anyone else, I have my suspicions about whether or not those two can tie their own shoes.
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Offline nicknorman

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Why should Cleveland give future #1s along with Wiggins?

Wiggins' potential alone doesn't account for Love's proven production.

In terms of trade value, sure it does, especially when you acknowledge that Love is gone in a year.

The Dwight Howard deal didn't include anybody of Wiggins' potential, nor did the CP3 deal, the KG deal, the Carmelo deal, etc., etc.  Wiggins alone is more than the Twolves can realistically hope for.

Those deals all involved players who had at least actually proven they could play in the NBA, cap relief, and a wealth of draft picks.  Wiggins *looks* good, but he has not yet done anything in the league.  That's way too much of a gamble for Minnesota and they absolutely should be looking for more than just Wiggins.

Would you rather have David Lee's big contract and Klay Thompson's soon-to-be big contract, or Wiggins and cap relief?

Would Glen Taylor and Flip Saunders want the same thing you want?

A cost-controlled potential superstar?  You'd hope that the guys running a professional team would prefer that.

That's what I don't get about Minny demanding Klay Thompson. To me he seems like more of a liability if you're going to have to pay him near max money after one season. Wiggins for 4 seasons as an experiment seems like a much better gamble.

Does Minny realize they are going to have the same trouble signing Thompson next season that they are now having with Love.

Offline Birdman

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I hope if Cleveland does get Love, he will bolt next summer..i still think he going to the Lakers next season
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I hope if Cleveland does get Love, he will bolt next summer..i still think he going to the Lakers next season

Would you rather player with Lebron and Kyrie, or an aging Kobe and Nick Young?

Winning championships and having unselfish teammates probably makes up for the burning river.


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Offline Endless Paradise

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Why should Cleveland give future #1s along with Wiggins?

Wiggins' potential alone doesn't account for Love's proven production.

In terms of trade value, sure it does, especially when you acknowledge that Love is gone in a year.

The Dwight Howard deal didn't include anybody of Wiggins' potential, nor did the CP3 deal, the KG deal, the Carmelo deal, etc., etc.  Wiggins alone is more than the Twolves can realistically hope for.

Those deals all involved players who had at least actually proven they could play in the NBA, cap relief, and a wealth of draft picks.  Wiggins *looks* good, but he has not yet done anything in the league.  That's way too much of a gamble for Minnesota and they absolutely should be looking for more than just Wiggins.

Players who had proven they could play?  So you're talking about players like Afflalo (DH12), Gallinari (melo) and Derrick Favors (deron williams) here.

Do you question whether or not Wiggins will ever prove that he can play to the level of those players?  Because barring injury (which can happen to any player acquired in a trade), I have less than 0.5% doubt in my mind that he will surpass the level of all 3 of those players.

EDIT - since two trades mentioned were CP3 and KG, I should mention the best proven players in those deals were Big Al and Eric Gordon.  Its hard for me to remember Eric Gordon at the time of the trade and how I'd feel about Wiggins vs. him.   Although, it should also be noted that those players being acquired (CP3 and KG) were considerably better than Kevin Love.  They were both irrefutably top 5 NBA players, which I don't think many people see Love ever sniffing in his career.

Love's arguably top 5 right now.

Also: the choice isn't "Lee and Klay vs. Wiggins and cap relief" alone since Minnesota's not taking Lee and Klay alone, either.  They've already turned that down.

Offline LooseCannon

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Why should Cleveland give future #1s along with Wiggins?

Wiggins' potential alone doesn't account for Love's proven production.

In terms of trade value, sure it does, especially when you acknowledge that Love is gone in a year.

The Dwight Howard deal didn't include anybody of Wiggins' potential, nor did the CP3 deal, the KG deal, the Carmelo deal, etc., etc.  Wiggins alone is more than the Twolves can realistically hope for.

Those deals all involved players who had at least actually proven they could play in the NBA, cap relief, and a wealth of draft picks.  Wiggins *looks* good, but he has not yet done anything in the league.  That's way too much of a gamble for Minnesota and they absolutely should be looking for more than just Wiggins.

Would you rather have David Lee's big contract and Klay Thompson's soon-to-be big contract, or Wiggins and cap relief?

Would Glen Taylor and Flip Saunders want the same thing you want?

A cost-controlled potential superstar?  You'd hope that the guys running a professional team would prefer that.

You'd hope a professional athlete would have the sense to regulate his diet and avoid getting fat.  You don't get everything you hope for.

I've said all along that Minnesota's likely goal is to make whatever trade looks like the quickest avenue to bringing their playoff drought to an end.  Given that they seem to value Thompson more than he should be, I wouldn't be shocked if they prefer Lee/Thompson to Wiggins/cap relief.
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Offline Ersatz

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That's what I don't get about Minny demanding Klay Thompson. To me he seems like more of a liability if you're going to have to pay him near max money after one season. Wiggins for 4 seasons as an experiment seems like a much better gamble.

Does Minny realize they are going to have the same trouble signing Thompson next season that they are now having with Love.

Well, Thompson's going to be an RFA, so they would control the process. But yeah, given the market for wings these days, they'd likely have to overpay to keep him. So the Wiggins deal makes more sense, especially since it signals they've given up on the moronic idea that they can compete without Love.

Offline bballee

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Wouldn't making it a multi-team trade obviate the need to wait 60 days? 
                        out         in
Cleveland   Wiggins      Love
Boston       Bogans      pick(s)
Minny         Love         Wiggins, Bogans, Cleveland 1st

Offline D.o.s.

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That's what I don't get about Minny demanding Klay Thompson. To me he seems like more of a liability if you're going to have to pay him near max money after one season. Wiggins for 4 seasons as an experiment seems like a much better gamble.

Does Minny realize they are going to have the same trouble signing Thompson next season that they are now having with Love.

Well, Thompson's going to be an RFA, so they would control the process. But yeah, given the market for wings these days, they'd likely have to overpay to keep him. So the Wiggins deal makes more sense, especially since it signals they've given up on the moronic idea that they can compete without Love.

Especially because Thompson could very easily get Chandler Parsons'd
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Offline LooseCannon

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That's what I don't get about Minny demanding Klay Thompson. To me he seems like more of a liability if you're going to have to pay him near max money after one season. Wiggins for 4 seasons as an experiment seems like a much better gamble.

Does Minny realize they are going to have the same trouble signing Thompson next season that they are now having with Love.

Well, Thompson's going to be an RFA, so they would control the process. But yeah, given the market for wings these days, they'd likely have to overpay to keep him. So the Wiggins deal makes more sense, especially since it signals they've given up on the moronic idea that they can compete without Love.

Thompson is eligible to sign an extension this summer.  He wants the max and Minnesota seems willing to give it to him.  They can make the trade with an agreement to give Thompson the max extension the way Houston traded for James Harden.
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Online Roy H.

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Wouldn't making it a multi-team trade obviate the need to wait 60 days? 
                        out         in
Cleveland   Wiggins      Love
Boston       Bogans      pick(s)
Minny         Love         Wiggins, Bogans, Cleveland 1st

Salaries don't "match" for Cleveland


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Offline Cman

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If Cleveland is attempting to acquire non-guaranteed salary to include in a deal for Love, it is, most likely, because they are essentially trying to trade Love for Wiggins straight up, but the salaries won’t match.  If they were to trade Love for Wiggins (30 days after Wiggins signed his contract), they would need to send an additional $5.2 million if such a trade would leave Cleveland under the luxury tax (which, given their current roster, it would), or an additional $7 million if such a trade would leave Cleveland over the luxury tax (possible if they add another vet or two between now and then).  There are no players on Cleveland’s current roster who isn’t a veteran (and thus someone LeBron wants to stay, namely Varejao) that can make up that $7 million difference, and only one who can make up the $5.2 million difference – Anthony Bennett.  While Bennett was relatively disappointing for a #1 overall pick, he still has positive value, and it makes sense they would balk at Minnesota demanding both Wiggins and Bennett.  But since the deal won’t work due to the CBA without Bennett, Minnesota gets to keep asking for the pair.

So Cleveland needs to come up with $5.2 million in non-guaranteed contracts, so they can offer Wiggins and the filler for Love.  These contracts need to stay non-guaranteed until at least 60 days from when they are acquired, as that is the earliest these contracts can be added into a deal for Love.  Furthermore, Cleveland doesn’t have much, if any, cap room left, so these contracts, for the most part, need to be for the minimum salary, since you’re allowed to take on as many minimum contracts as you want (as long as you’re not breaking some other rule about roster size or the hard cap).  Below is a list of contracts, by team, that meet the following requirements:

1)   Cleveland can acquire them (are a minimum salary, has enough cap room (less than $2 million,) didn’t recently trade them like Henry Sims)
2)   Are completely non-guaranteed through October 1st
3)   Are not a player that the current team values highly (like Patrick Beverly), as those aren’t the right kind of players to use as simply salary filler

(All data from shamsports)

Boston: Chris Johnson ($915,243), Chris Babb ($816,482) – Total: $1,732,725
Brooklyn: Jorge Gutierrez ($816,482)
Houston: Josh Powell ($1,310,286)
Milwaukee: Chris Wright ($915,243)
Orlando: Dewayne Dedmon ($816,482)
Philadelphia: Casper Ware ($816,482), Hollis Thompson ($816,482), Brandon Davies ($816,482), Elliot Williams ($981,084) – Total: $3,430,530
Toronto: Diante Garret ($915,243)
Utah: Malcolm Thomas ($948,163), John Lucas III ($1,600,000) – Total: $2,548,163
(Note: John Lucas III may make too much to fit in Cleveland’s cap room, since he’s not a minimum salary player.)

Anyway, we either have the second or third most amount of non-guaranteed salary for Cleveland to use.  However, our non-guaranteed plus Philly’s still does not get Cleveland to the magic number of $5.2 million – they’re short by under $100k.  Philly also has Jarvis Varnado, who has $75k of his $915,243 salary guaranteed – that’s a nominal sum that probably gets made up by a team sending the other cash.  Accordingly, Cleveland probably does best if they acquire all of Philly’s and Utah’s non-guaranteed deals, but if they can’t absorb Lucas, taking Babb and Johnson plus all of Philly’s (including Varnado’s) would work for them too.  It likely would cost them some second round picks to encourage the teams to play along.

TP. This was very useful and explains why Bogans's contract is not useful in this case.
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