Author Topic: Why don't people think we'll be better?  (Read 15775 times)

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Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2014, 09:52:45 PM »

Online hpantazo

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- Dwayne Wade took the Miami Heat in the playoffs in his rookie campaign. They finished 42-40 in the season. They became a championship contender the following season after they got Shaq.

- Damian Lilliard and Brandon Roy turned the franchise of Blazers right after they got drafted.
It took two season for Roy and one for Lilliard to compete in the playoffs. And guess what? Both are picked in the #6 spot. Maybe our own #6 and even #17 can do that.

That proves that Rookies don't make you better right away a myth. Some rookies have huge impact in the team. The way I saw Marcus Smart play, I get that impression. I could be wrong about him though. Push these young guys to the playoffs and they will attract an impact Free Agent, star or not.

So true.

+1

Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Tim Duncan all turned their teams around big time in their rookie seasons as well. We have no rookies or prospects of any kind for that matter anywhere near that level of talent however.

Lillard had some talented players on his team, including Aldridge. The 2009-2010 Blazers in Roy's early career also had Aldridge, a healthy Oden, younger versions of Camby Andre Miller, and Juwan Howard i.e vets that know how to win.

Larry Bird was supposed to be unanimous #1 overall. Teams are reluctant to draft him because of the risk of not signing with the team and they lose his rights. Duncan and Magic were the unanimous best player in his draft class. When did the Celtics drafted #1 overall?

And like I said,  Roy's Blazers took 2 seasons to become competitive. They acquired piece during it's span I love it when you mentioned Aldridge yet disregard Rondo. Even if we miss a star FA in next season, we CAN acquire players that could give huge impact in the team if this young team proves to be competitive and talented once they made the playoffs.

We have finally a depth of balance roster that we don't have last season

Is it really that hard to be optimistic? You don't need a delusional optimism like Smart winning an MVP or Tyller Zeller winning the DPOY.

Aldridge was a young, healthy, big man on a cost controlled rookie contract though. Rondo is a PG hitting his prime years who is coming off ACL surgery, can't shoot, and wants max money. It's a huge difference when building a team.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2014, 10:07:09 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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- Dwayne Wade took the Miami Heat in the playoffs in his rookie campaign. They finished 42-40 in the season. They became a championship contender the following season after they got Shaq.

- Damian Lilliard and Brandon Roy turned the franchise of Blazers right after they got drafted.
It took two season for Roy and one for Lilliard to compete in the playoffs. And guess what? Both are picked in the #6 spot. Maybe our own #6 and even #17 can do that.

That proves that Rookies don't make you better right away a myth. Some rookies have huge impact in the team. The way I saw Marcus Smart play, I get that impression. I could be wrong about him though. Push these young guys to the playoffs and they will attract an impact Free Agent, star or not.

So true.

+1

Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Tim Duncan all turned their teams around big time in their rookie seasons as well. We have no rookies or prospects of any kind for that matter anywhere near that level of talent however.

Lillard had some talented players on his team, including Aldridge. The 2009-2010 Blazers in Roy's early career also had Aldridge, a healthy Oden, younger versions of Camby Andre Miller, and Juwan Howard i.e vets that know how to win.

Larry Bird was supposed to be unanimous #1 overall. Teams are reluctant to draft him because of the risk of not signing with the team and they lose his rights. Duncan and Magic were the unanimous best player in his draft class. When did the Celtics drafted #1 overall?

And like I said,  Roy's Blazers took 2 seasons to become competitive. They acquired piece during it's span I love it when you mentioned Aldridge yet disregard Rondo. Even if we miss a star FA in next season, we CAN acquire players that could give huge impact in the team if this young team proves to be competitive and talented once they made the playoffs.

We have finally a depth of balance roster that we don't have last season

Is it really that hard to be optimistic? You don't need a delusional optimism like Smart winning an MVP or Tyller Zeller winning the DPOY.

Aldridge was a young, healthy, big man on a cost controlled rookie contract though. Rondo is a PG hitting his prime years who is coming off ACL surgery, can't shoot, and wants max money. It's a huge difference when building a team.

Let's discuss this after the season is over. I don't want to turn this to another "Rondo can't shoot" topic because it's repetitive and becoming tedious. It's okay to be skeptical on a player that suffered a season-ending injury. Will he be back to the player he once were? I don't know. But he will be a better player than last season.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2014, 10:14:17 PM »

Online hpantazo

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- Dwayne Wade took the Miami Heat in the playoffs in his rookie campaign. They finished 42-40 in the season. They became a championship contender the following season after they got Shaq.

- Damian Lilliard and Brandon Roy turned the franchise of Blazers right after they got drafted.
It took two season for Roy and one for Lilliard to compete in the playoffs. And guess what? Both are picked in the #6 spot. Maybe our own #6 and even #17 can do that.

That proves that Rookies don't make you better right away a myth. Some rookies have huge impact in the team. The way I saw Marcus Smart play, I get that impression. I could be wrong about him though. Push these young guys to the playoffs and they will attract an impact Free Agent, star or not.

So true.

+1

Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Tim Duncan all turned their teams around big time in their rookie seasons as well. We have no rookies or prospects of any kind for that matter anywhere near that level of talent however.

Lillard had some talented players on his team, including Aldridge. The 2009-2010 Blazers in Roy's early career also had Aldridge, a healthy Oden, younger versions of Camby Andre Miller, and Juwan Howard i.e vets that know how to win.

Larry Bird was supposed to be unanimous #1 overall. Teams are reluctant to draft him because of the risk of not signing with the team and they lose his rights. Duncan and Magic were the unanimous best player in his draft class. When did the Celtics drafted #1 overall?

And like I said,  Roy's Blazers took 2 seasons to become competitive. They acquired piece during it's span I love it when you mentioned Aldridge yet disregard Rondo. Even if we miss a star FA in next season, we CAN acquire players that could give huge impact in the team if this young team proves to be competitive and talented once they made the playoffs.

We have finally a depth of balance roster that we don't have last season

Is it really that hard to be optimistic? You don't need a delusional optimism like Smart winning an MVP or Tyller Zeller winning the DPOY.

Aldridge was a young, healthy, big man on a cost controlled rookie contract though. Rondo is a PG hitting his prime years who is coming off ACL surgery, can't shoot, and wants max money. It's a huge difference when building a team.

Let's discuss this after the season is over. I don't want to turn this to another "Rondo can't shoot" topic because it's repetitive and becoming tedious. It's okay to be skeptical on a player that suffered a season-ending injury. Will he be back to the player he once were? I don't know. But he will be a better player than last season.

Sure. it's not a simple 'Rondo can't shoot' argument though. The cost controlled part of it is a major deal. Rondo will want a max deal very soon. Do you dedicate a large part of your future cap space to him? Has he peaked already? Those are big questions that force these kind of decisions. Having guys like Aldridge or in our case, Sullinger and KO on rookie deals makes it a different story altogether.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2014, 10:42:08 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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People enjoy being negative. They like talking about how their knee hurts and how it happened. How many docs they saw for their problem. How tough it is to get to work. How much they overcame to get to where they are. And so on.

We have nothing to do with the process. DA has done a ridiculously great job leveraging small things this off season. What I have gotten out of this is that we are in great hands. No way DA does this and doesn't set us up for two to three titles this cycle. GO BOSTON CELTICS!!!!!

Well said, TP.  The constant over-hyping of everyone and everything on tv is beyond nauseating.  I used to think that it was just used to fill air time.  Now, I'm not so sure.  It's all about the journey (sarcasm). ::)  What a load of Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. haha.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2014, 10:45:09 PM »

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In order to win you need a star who can score when the game is tight in the 4th, and you need enough size up front to at least hold your own.

The Celtics still dont have a starting quality center or a closer who can score in bunches in the 4th.

But, they do have nice role players, and if healthy a nice point guard to set everyone up. They will be better, just not much better. I am thinking 32 wins.
Agree with all of this.

I think at some point in the next few years, a star will become available and Boston will have the assets to land him. This team is just loaded with mismatched parts of various value.

Nope.  Why not develop our own players and see if they become stars instead?  Ainge actually drafted well this year.  Who knows, we might have two diamonds in the rough.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2014, 11:06:28 PM »

Offline gar

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In order to win you need a star who can score when the game is tight in the 4th, and you need enough size up front to at least hold your own.

The Celtics still dont have a starting quality center or a closer who can score in bunches in the 4th.

But, they do have nice role players, and if healthy a nice point guard to set everyone up. They will be better, just not much better. I am thinking 32 wins.
Agree with all of this.

I think at some point in the next few years, a star will become available and Boston will have the assets to land him. This team is just loaded with mismatched parts of various value.

Nope.  Why not develop our own players and see if they become stars instead?  Ainge actually drafted well this year.  Who knows, we might have two diamonds in the rough.

Who is the star of the Spurs? Who is the Go To guy? It is a team concept that got them several NBA titles and it is a team concept that Stevens is trying to implement in Boston. It is call taking what the CBA gives you and working with it rather than always trying to rig the system. The Spurs get Players to buy into a team concept and nurture talent from where ever they can get it. How many lottery picks on the Spurs - maybe Tim Duncan, but that is it.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2014, 08:11:50 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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this team has to be better. I think Rondo will be better, I don't care if people hate him, love him or whatever, he wasn't healthy last yr., he wasn't playing a normal schedule of games, he'll be better and we'll be better.

and I have to assume sully and olynyk will be better....if sully hasn't eaten his way outta the league between now and the start of the season.

but all of this doesn't really matter. last season we still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs I think with like 3 weeks to go in the season. and that's why i'm puzzled as to why we're loading this team with guys that will get us to the 8th seed?

in the east we could have 28 - 30 wins and make the playoffs. it's a bad time to be mediocre.

also every yr. there's always 1 or 2 teams that don't live up to the hype esp. in the east. again we could find ourselves in or close to the playoffs without even trying.

The bar for getting into the East last year, when the power was more concentrated, was 38 wins. I don't see where 30 wins gets us a spot this year.

I agree that we will be better than last year, but I don't think we're in danger of making the playoffs (which is an awful phrase to type).

in reality 30 wins shouldn't get us in the playoffs and it probably won't. the eastern teams 'should' be better, but then again there were teams last yr. that 'should've been better' in the east and they weren't.

but still, if 38 was the bar and we were 30 and still had a shot until like 3 - 4 weeks to go in the season. it's too close. we were a lottery team that could've made the playoffs. if we earned a playoff spot - then great. but making the playoffs because we're the better of the bad teams isn't the same as earning it.

  If you finish with a better record than enough teams to make the playoffs you've earned it.

if having a losing record and making the playoffs means "earning it" to you then you might be a happy guy next yr.

i'd rather be a bad team with a lottery pick to show for it than a bad team with nothing to show for it.

  Everyone wants a high draft pick, not just you. Which has nothing to do with whether or not you "earn" the playoff spot that you, er, earn.

sorry, I should be clear here. when I say "earn it". i'd like to feel like we did something or had a part in making the playoffs, not just being the best of the worst or making the playoffs just because the state of the conference. to be precise i'd feel better about making the playoffs if we had a winning record at least. that's what I mean by "earning it". 

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2014, 08:27:10 AM »

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I think we win 25 games or so.  Just the way I see it.  I see Milwaukee as the only team clearly worse than Boston in the East (though Orlando and Philly certainly could be).

You don't think having Rondo alone for an entire season vs. the few games we had him for is worth a few more wins?

I see them as a 30 win team and that is thought of this thread...never said playoff...just think they have more depth and Rondo for a full year and should win a handful more games because of it.

The Celtics should be at least better than the Bucks, Magic and the Sixers. They not are THAT bad.
I think Orlando is going to be much improved this year.  I really like the Gordon and Payton selections.  I think Oladipo is going to make a huge jump this year.  I like the Frye signing and him next to Vucevic. 

I also really like Noel for Philly.  I think he is going to be a star in the league.  MCW will improve.  Wroten will get better.  They still have Thad Young.

I would put Philly and Orlando in the 22-28 win range, same as Boston. 

The Bucks should be in the 18-22 win range. 

Boston is going to be bad this year.  All of the problems they had last year, they still have this year.  No interior defense, no go to scorer, no great rebounders (in fact losing Hump makes that worse).  A healthy Rondo with a bit more depth, isn't going to fix this team.  It is by and large still the deeply flawed team it was last year.

Eastern Tiers as I see them
fighting for #1 odds bad - Milwaukee
clearly not playoff team - Boston, Orlando, Philadelphia
possible playoff team - Atlanta, Detroit, Charlotte, New York
low level playoff team - Toronto, Brooklyn
clear playoff team - Washington, Indiana, Miami
favorites - Cleveland, Chicago

Obviously injuries, trades, future free agent signings, etc. could affect this stuff (for example if Monroe leaves Detroit they would drop down to the out of the playoffs tier).
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Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2014, 08:32:28 AM »

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In order to win you need a star who can score when the game is tight in the 4th, and you need enough size up front to at least hold your own.

The Celtics still dont have a starting quality center or a closer who can score in bunches in the 4th.

But, they do have nice role players, and if healthy a nice point guard to set everyone up. They will be better, just not much better. I am thinking 32 wins.
Agree with all of this.

I think at some point in the next few years, a star will become available and Boston will have the assets to land him. This team is just loaded with mismatched parts of various value.

Nope.  Why not develop our own players and see if they become stars instead?  Ainge actually drafted well this year.  Who knows, we might have two diamonds in the rough.

Who is the star of the Spurs? Who is the Go To guy? It is a team concept that got them several NBA titles and it is a team concept that Stevens is trying to implement in Boston. It is call taking what the CBA gives you and working with it rather than always trying to rig the system. The Spurs get Players to buy into a team concept and nurture talent from where ever they can get it. How many lottery picks on the Spurs - maybe Tim Duncan, but that is it.
Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli can all take over games and be go to scorers when needed, which was especially true for the prior titles.  This one was a bit different as they are all older and only Parker is still in his prime, but they all still have that ability in them and now Leonard is moving up into that category.
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Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2014, 09:07:30 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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the only teams in the east I consider definite playoff teams as currently constituted are Washington, Chicago, Cleveland and Atlanta.

i'd put Miami in there and they probably will be one of the better teams in the east, plus i'm sure they'll be showing a lot of pride. but if wade is just average, bosh and granger aint cutting it.

how or why is Atlanta being overlooked by everyone thus far though? they were a playoff team without Horford and he should be back, plus they had a pretty good off-season. I think everyone is severely underrating this team esp. in the east.

Toronto and Indy? Toronto to me just seems like that team in the east that was fortunate the east is so bad. and everyone seems to think Indy is the same team as 2 yr's. ago and they're completely different. no Stephenson, George is not looking like the MVP that many claimed and hibbert is the model of inconsistent. I think indy is going to struggle big time. that's my bold statement of the yr.
 

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2014, 09:16:25 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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the only teams in the east I consider definite playoff teams as currently constituted are Washington, Chicago, Cleveland and Atlanta.

i'd put Miami in there and they probably will be one of the better teams in the east, plus i'm sure they'll be showing a lot of pride. but if wade is just average, bosh and granger aint cutting it.

how or why is Atlanta being overlooked by everyone thus far though? they were a playoff team without Horford and he should be back, plus they had a pretty good off-season. I think everyone is severely underrating this team esp. in the east.

Toronto and Indy? Toronto to me just seems like that team in the east that was fortunate the east is so bad. and everyone seems to think Indy is the same team as 2 yr's. ago and they're completely different. no Stephenson, George is not looking like the MVP that many claimed and hibbert is the model of inconsistent. I think indy is going to struggle big time. that's my bold statement of the yr.
 

So bold.  :D

No love for Charlotte, though?
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Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2014, 09:16:57 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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In order to win you need a star who can score when the game is tight in the 4th, and you need enough size up front to at least hold your own.

The Celtics still dont have a starting quality center or a closer who can score in bunches in the 4th.

But, they do have nice role players, and if healthy a nice point guard to set everyone up. They will be better, just not much better. I am thinking 32 wins.
Agree with all of this.

I think at some point in the next few years, a star will become available and Boston will have the assets to land him. This team is just loaded with mismatched parts of various value.

Nope.  Why not develop our own players and see if they become stars instead?  Ainge actually drafted well this year.  Who knows, we might have two diamonds in the rough.

because it's a recipe for disaster. if you can turn an unknown commodity(a draft pick or young player) into a all star or budding superstar through a trade? then you absolutely do it.

yes every team develops young talent to some degree. but most teams do it through trades and free agency. trying to repeat what the spurs have done is a mistake no organization should try to do if they don't have to.

just building through the draft should be the last option imo. and left to teams that have no chance of trading for a big name or getting free agents to come in. like Minn.   

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2014, 09:18:47 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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the only teams in the east I consider definite playoff teams as currently constituted are Washington, Chicago, Cleveland and Atlanta.

i'd put Miami in there and they probably will be one of the better teams in the east, plus i'm sure they'll be showing a lot of pride. but if wade is just average, bosh and granger aint cutting it.

how or why is Atlanta being overlooked by everyone thus far though? they were a playoff team without Horford and he should be back, plus they had a pretty good off-season. I think everyone is severely underrating this team esp. in the east.

Toronto and Indy? Toronto to me just seems like that team in the east that was fortunate the east is so bad. and everyone seems to think Indy is the same team as 2 yr's. ago and they're completely different. no Stephenson, George is not looking like the MVP that many claimed and hibbert is the model of inconsistent. I think indy is going to struggle big time. that's my bold statement of the yr.
 

So bold.  :D

No love for Charlotte, though?

Actually I should have mentioned them as well. between Atlanta and them I think they've both had great off-seasons. both are definite playoff teams imo.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2014, 09:30:35 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Agreed.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Why don't people think we'll be better?
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2014, 09:45:12 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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The argument comes down to a couple things

1. Will Rondo be fully healthy when he comes back? Last year he was bad because he didn't have the quickness to create enough space to finish around the basket or the quickness to defend the pick and roll. If you think he will regain this quickness then we should be better, if he can't then we probably will be worse. I personally think Rondo is a hard worker and with his contract ending I don't see any way in which he doesn't come back as quick as ever. Rondo has always played his best when the lights are the brightest. I envision him playing great all year because the lights of free agency will be upon him

2. Health Along with Rondo, will Bradley, Sullinger, and Olynyk stay healthy enough to continue their progression ( I think Sullinger gets hurt because he's still carrying too much weight around but I expect with the improved depth Rondo/AB don't have to play as much so they are less likely to get hurt)

3. Rookie impact: Can the rookies contribute more than the players whose roster spots they are taking? (I expect Smart to immediately give us 6th man worthy minutes and Young to look pretty lost but be able to hit open 3's if called upon)

4. Have the other teams who finished around the Celtics improved more than the Celtics? (our record against the lower tier of the Eastern conference was already bad last year so I don't think an incremental improvement from those teams will strongly effect our record compared to last year).

Last year was awful. I couldn't bring myself to watch the games at the end of the season because of how bad the team was. I believe that we should be able to play slightly better ball than we did to start the season and be competitive. My goal for this team is not to have a huge turnaround, but to show that the C's have promising young players that free agents should want to play with. I think the 2015/2016 season is when the C's will make a big jump, but in order for them to do that they need to play good enough to be an intriguing free agent option.
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