I don't buy this Cavs hype just yet...

[puskas54_10]

Don't be jealous. They are clearly the favourites in the east. Finals will be tough, it doesn't matter who they play.
That's a great core. They will sign Ray Allen  and Mike Miller to stretch the floor. If they get Love, the only team that can challange them are the Spurs.

Is that like when the Heat were supposed to be unbeatable for 6+ years?

I don't understand the people here. OP questioned if the new cavs will be even a contender? Lebron is on the team, enough said.
You imply that the Miami Heat in the last 4 years were not successful. Because they just won 2 rings and 4 EC Finals. So if you not win the championship you're nothing. I don't understand this mentality.

I didn't say they weren't successful. I didn't say they were nothing. I said they weren't unbeatable. The 4 years they made the Finals, they were beaten twice by veteran teams that they were favored against (the Mavs were more underdogs than the Spurs). My point is, before Miami's Big 3 played together, the media dubbed them a juggernaut dynasty in the making. As talented as they were, the hype will always overshadow their actual accomplishments.

This is my problem. People like you say they didn't live up to the hype. 2 rings and 4 trips to the finals. 27 game winning streak. I will tell you some teams who did not live up to the hype. Lakers with Kobe, Nash, Howard and Gasol or Philadelphia Eagles 2 years ago. That's not living up the hype and failing big time.

[jpotter33]

I argued in another thread and firmly stand behind the statement that if any team in the East (yes that includes Milwaukee and Philly) added Lebron James (and lost no one to do so) that team would be the clear favorites in the East.  I firmly stand by that statement.

As for the Cavs, they have had a couple of issues getting to that next level in the past, but James fixes all of them. 

First, the Cavs are young, immature, and have no leaders.  James fixes the gaping leadership hole and provides a level of work ethic and maturity that the young Cavs need. 

Second, the Cavs don't have a true #1 guy and thus everyone was forced into roles they shouldn't be in.  You slot James in as the #1 guy, Irving now becomes the #2, Waiters the #3, etc.  They are all much better situated one spot down the rung (if they keep Wiggins he helps here as well and Love would slot in as the #2 and everyone else would move down farther). 

Third, the Cavs are pretty terrible defenders.  James is, one of, if not the best overall defender in basketball.  His defense alone won't cure this problem, but it will greatly improve the entire Cavs defense and he won't stand for some of the laziness on that end that the Cavs got away with in the past (if they keep Wiggins he also improves the defense a ton).

Fourth, no veterans would go to Cleveland on the cheap because they wouldn't want to deal with 1-3, but with James there and the Cavs being a true contender the veterans will flock there and can help James lead the young guys and help them fulfill their promise and potential.


I fully expect Cleveland to sign Chris Anderson and Ray Allen.  Add them to the bench and the Cavs are the clear favorites in the East even if they don't get Love (unless Anthony signs in Chicago, though I think I would still pick Cleveland they just wouldn't be the clear favorites).

There's a major difference between being favorites in the East and being true title contenders, which is what I'm arguing.  I don't think they can beat the best of the west in the Finals THIS YEAR. They might be able to win in a couple of years, but not this year.

[jpotter33]

Don't be jealous. They are clearly the favourites in the east. Finals will be tough, it doesn't matter who they play.
That's a great core. They will sign Ray Allen  and Mike Miller to stretch the floor. If they get Love, the only team that can challange them are the Spurs.

Is that like when the Heat were supposed to be unbeatable for 6+ years?

I don't understand the people here. OP questioned if the new cavs will be even a contender? Lebron is on the team, enough said.
You imply that the Miami Heat in the last 4 years were not successful. Because they just won 2 rings and 4 EC Finals. So if you not win the championship you're nothing. I don't understand this mentality.

I didn't say they weren't successful. I didn't say they were nothing. I said they weren't unbeatable. The 4 years they made the Finals, they were beaten twice by veteran teams that they were favored against (the Mavs were more underdogs than the Spurs). My point is, before Miami's Big 3 played together, the media dubbed them a juggernaut dynasty in the making. As talented as they were, the hype will always overshadow their actual accomplishments.

This is my problem. People like you say they didn't live up to the hype. 2 rings and 4 trips to the finals. 27 game winning streak. I will tell you some teams who did not live up to the hype. Lakers with Kobe, Nash, Howard and Gasol or Philadelphia Eagles 2 years ago. That's not living up the hype and failing big time.

They "literally" did not live up to the hype. Lebron said "not 2, not 3, not 4, etc." So, yes, they literally did not live up to the hype that was promised. lol (Unless they were talking about Finals appearances! )

[Moranis]

I argued in another thread and firmly stand behind the statement that if any team in the East (yes that includes Milwaukee and Philly) added Lebron James (and lost no one to do so) that team would be the clear favorites in the East.  I firmly stand by that statement.

As for the Cavs, they have had a couple of issues getting to that next level in the past, but James fixes all of them. 

First, the Cavs are young, immature, and have no leaders.  James fixes the gaping leadership hole and provides a level of work ethic and maturity that the young Cavs need. 

Second, the Cavs don't have a true #1 guy and thus everyone was forced into roles they shouldn't be in.  You slot James in as the #1 guy, Irving now becomes the #2, Waiters the #3, etc.  They are all much better situated one spot down the rung (if they keep Wiggins he helps here as well and Love would slot in as the #2 and everyone else would move down farther). 

Third, the Cavs are pretty terrible defenders.  James is, one of, if not the best overall defender in basketball.  His defense alone won't cure this problem, but it will greatly improve the entire Cavs defense and he won't stand for some of the laziness on that end that the Cavs got away with in the past (if they keep Wiggins he also improves the defense a ton).

Fourth, no veterans would go to Cleveland on the cheap because they wouldn't want to deal with 1-3, but with James there and the Cavs being a true contender the veterans will flock there and can help James lead the young guys and help them fulfill their promise and potential.


I fully expect Cleveland to sign Chris Anderson and Ray Allen.  Add them to the bench and the Cavs are the clear favorites in the East even if they don't get Love (unless Anthony signs in Chicago, though I think I would still pick Cleveland they just wouldn't be the clear favorites).

There's a major difference between being favorites in the East and being true title contenders, which is what I'm arguing.  I don't think they can beat the best of the west in the Finals THIS YEAR. They might be able to win in a couple of years, but not this year.

If you are in the Finals and you have the best player in the world (and by a wide margin), then you are a true title contender. 

[D.o.s.]

^ agreed.

[Donoghus]

^ agreed.

Ehh...yes & no.  I think its slightly complicated and probably gets into semantics.

Look at the Nets of the early 2000s.  The cream of the crop in a horrible conferrence but did they really stand a chance once they got to the Finals, either year? 

If a trip to the Finals makes you a contender, then sure, they were a contender.

Realistically, they were never competing for a championship, though.  Someone needed to be sacrificed at the slaughter.

It's a little tougher here because said East champion has Lebron James.  But does it have a realistic chance of winning the Finals?  Certainly moreso than those early 2000s Nets but even the best player in the world needs a servicable supporting cast.  In this case, he probably does although I'm not sure they'd be getting by San Antonio or even some of the other West heavyweights.

Personally, if you're in the final four or so, you're a contender.  You just might not be a realistic contender at a championship when you get into the gritty.

[Who]

With Kevin Love = yes, title contender

Without Kevin Love = no, not yet. Not until Wiggins ready for leading role. Or until some of the other kiddies are traded for veterans who know how to do their jobs.

[jpotter33]

I argued in another thread and firmly stand behind the statement that if any team in the East (yes that includes Milwaukee and Philly) added Lebron James (and lost no one to do so) that team would be the clear favorites in the East.  I firmly stand by that statement.

As for the Cavs, they have had a couple of issues getting to that next level in the past, but James fixes all of them. 

First, the Cavs are young, immature, and have no leaders.  James fixes the gaping leadership hole and provides a level of work ethic and maturity that the young Cavs need. 

Second, the Cavs don't have a true #1 guy and thus everyone was forced into roles they shouldn't be in.  You slot James in as the #1 guy, Irving now becomes the #2, Waiters the #3, etc.  They are all much better situated one spot down the rung (if they keep Wiggins he helps here as well and Love would slot in as the #2 and everyone else would move down farther). 

Third, the Cavs are pretty terrible defenders.  James is, one of, if not the best overall defender in basketball.  His defense alone won't cure this problem, but it will greatly improve the entire Cavs defense and he won't stand for some of the laziness on that end that the Cavs got away with in the past (if they keep Wiggins he also improves the defense a ton).

Fourth, no veterans would go to Cleveland on the cheap because they wouldn't want to deal with 1-3, but with James there and the Cavs being a true contender the veterans will flock there and can help James lead the young guys and help them fulfill their promise and potential.


I fully expect Cleveland to sign Chris Anderson and Ray Allen.  Add them to the bench and the Cavs are the clear favorites in the East even if they don't get Love (unless Anthony signs in Chicago, though I think I would still pick Cleveland they just wouldn't be the clear favorites).

There's a major difference between being favorites in the East and being true title contenders, which is what I'm arguing.  I don't think they can beat the best of the west in the Finals THIS YEAR. They might be able to win in a couple of years, but not this year.

If you are in the Finals and you have the best player in the world (and by a wide margin), then you are a true title contender.

Sure, I'll give you that they'll be a contender in your terms.  But do you really think they're the favorites right now? (That's really what I'm arguing against. I phrased it wrong by saying they're not true title contenders.)

[droopdog7]

Honestly, any team with Lebron is an instant contender.

The.  End.

[obnoxiousmime]

This is one of my least favorite type of threads: "_______ is actually not equal to the hype." The problem with these arguments is that they always use the straw man of "the hype" to easily knock down, with no reference to actual examples of said "hype" that were written or said by respected journalists or reporters.

Yes, there is a lot of hype surrounding LeBron returning to the Cavs. But that hype is due to it being a big news story, not because the Cavs are necessarily certain title contenders. In fact, I haven't heard anybody in the media claim the Cavs are the favorites to win a title. LeBron even wrote in his letter that he thinks it will take time!

You might say something like, "Well Las Vegas has them as favorites to win the title." Well that doesn't really mean anything because Vegas uses their odds to generate bets and not as a true indication of what they think will happen. It's very possible they opened the Cavs as favorites just to make some headlines and create more action. A lot of sports fans don't actually bet on sports regularly, and this is the kind of big news story that pulls in casual betters or overexcited Clevelanders. And when you make one bet, chances are better you will make another one.

2 points in your original post are already easily refuted. The Celtics big 3 won a title their first year together. The Heat went to the Finals their first year together. Great players will find a way to play together. In terms of role players, it's not like the team right now is complete. Obviously they are going to be totally remaking their roster now. With LeBron on board, other players are already interested in coming, possibly for discounts.

[D.o.s.]

Are you saying that we shouldn't, hmm, believe the hype?

[get_banners]

those miami picks gotten for lebron in the first place could be substantial if miami goes bad quickly. basically, cleveland won the ultimate lottery w/o doing much. they got yet another #1 in their lap, the best player in the league signing w/ them, and then 1st round picks that were thought to be end of 1st round that might now be pretty high. argh. some teams get all the breaks after being horribly incompetent.

[vinnie]

Don't be jealous. They are clearly the favourites in the east. Finals will be tough, it doesn't matter who they play.
That's a great core. They will sign Ray Allen  and Mike Miller to stretch the floor. If they get Love, the only team that can challange them are the Spurs.

Is that like when the Heat were supposed to be unbeatable for 6+ years?

While I agree the Heat were not unbeatable, I sure in hell wouldn't mind being a fan of a team that goes to 4 straight NBA finals and wins two of them.

[jpotter33]

This is one of my least favorite type of threads: "_______ is actually not equal to the hype." The problem with these arguments is that they always use the straw man of "the hype" to easily knock down, with no reference to actual examples of said "hype" that were written or said by respected journalists or reporters.

Yes, there is a lot of hype surrounding LeBron returning to the Cavs. But that hype is due to it being a big news story, not because the Cavs are necessarily certain title contenders. In fact, I haven't heard anybody in the media claim the Cavs are the favorites to win a title. LeBron even wrote in his letter that he thinks it will take time!

You might say something like, "Well Las Vegas has them as favorites to win the title." Well that doesn't really mean anything because Vegas uses their odds to generate bets and not as a true indication of what they think will happen. It's very possible they opened the Cavs as favorites just to make some headlines and create more action. A lot of sports fans don't actually bet on sports regularly, and this is the kind of big news story that pulls in casual betters or overexcited Clevelanders. And when you make one bet, chances are better you will make another one.

2 points in your original post are already easily refuted. The Celtics big 3 won a title their first year together. The Heat went to the Finals their first year together. Great players will find a way to play together. In terms of role players, it's not like the team right now is complete. Obviously they are going to be totally remaking their roster now. With LeBron on board, other players are already interested in coming, possibly for discounts.

1) If you read the whole original post, then you would I said I would buy the hype conditional on the three premises I suggested: chemistry, strong supporting cast, and a defensive system that makes Love and Irving passable defenders. So I'll only buy the hype when these three conditions are met.

2) I used an actual, empirical example of hype as my point of reference (Lebron's not 1, not 2, not 3 quote), so it's not a straw man argument.

3) Our Big 3 was in a totally different situation in their respective careers than Irving and Love or Wiggins. To suggest a similarity there is incredibly shortsighted and invalid. There is no symmetry between the first year of a Lebron, Irving, Love trio and the Garnett, Pierce, Allen trio. Hell, two of the Cavs' trio haven't even been to the playoffs! How in the world do you think they could possibly win the championship their first year?

4) I was directly referring to the Vegas odds, but by the tone of everyone else here they're also buying those odds. So when the prevailing opinion in my experience is the same as the betting odds, that's what I'm going to use to justify my opinion of what "the hype" really is.

[RJ87]

I don't understand the people here. OP questioned if the new cavs will be even a contender? Lebron is on the team, enough said.
You imply that the Miami Heat in the last 4 years were not successful. Because they just won 2 rings and 4 EC Finals. So if you not win the championship you're nothing. I don't understand this mentality.

I didn't say they weren't successful. I didn't say they were nothing. I said they weren't unbeatable. The 4 years they made the Finals, they were beaten twice by veteran teams that they were favored against (the Mavs were more underdogs than the Spurs). My point is, before Miami's Big 3 played together, the media dubbed them a juggernaut dynasty in the making. As talented as they were, the hype will always overshadow their actual accomplishments.

This is my problem. People like you say they didn't live up to the hype. 2 rings and 4 trips to the finals. 27 game winning streak. I will tell you some teams who did not live up to the hype. Lakers with Kobe, Nash, Howard and Gasol or Philadelphia Eagles 2 years ago. That's not living up the hype and failing big time.

You're completely missing my point.

When they formed in Miami, everyone was ready to hand over the next 5 or 6 championship trophies to them without them playing a single minute together.They were supposed to threaten the Bulls' single season win record.  When the games were actually played, it was far from reality. 4 Finals appearances and 2 championships is nothing to sneeze at. But if you pull up posts from 2010, I'm sure you'll see a ton of "no one's winning while that team is together" posts.