Author Topic: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6  (Read 43462 times)

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Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2014, 09:53:00 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Avery Bradley is much less of a defensive stud than people think.

I agree.

Disagree.

I also disagree. 

There's a reason why he got a starting spot over Ray Allen - the Celtics were better with AB on the court.  That was two years ago, when he was practically still a rookie (he barely played his first season). 

His advanced defensive stats were absolutely elite in his second and third seasons - points allowed, opponent FG%, you name it.

Last year Bradley faced a number of challenges:

1) Playing under a new coach - Steven's had a different gameplan for Bradley and asked him to play less aggresively on defense, and focus more on his offenisve game

2) A change of role - Lack of scorers forced Bradley to take on a much larger role in the offense.  It's much harder to play full-court pressire defense on every possession when you are also the teams #2 scoring option. 

Possibly as a result of this, Bradley's defensive numbers slipped dramatically last season when compared to his previous two seasons.  I can only assume it's because of the above factors, because a 22 year old guy doesn't just "drop off" in one season like that for no apparent reason.  It not like he just got in to his mid 30's and his body has given up on him lol

Anyways history shows that Bradley absolutely is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA - easilly top 5, possibly above that.  The only guard I can think of who challenges him in that regard is Tony Allen, who has no offensive game at all.
He got a starting spot over Ray Allen because he was better than Ray Allen... a 36-year old Ray Allen who hasn't started since then.

Bradley's defensive "excellence" is based on his full court pressure. Unfortunately for him, that's something that's fairly easy to deal with by setting a simple back pick -- which is the reason not many people do it other than as a change of tempo. Take this out of the equation, and you've got an undersized guard that may be decent but decidedly not extraordinary defensively.

And that's before we start discussing his mental fragility and skills.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #151 on: July 12, 2014, 11:14:53 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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LOL....claiming he is a bust for summer league play!!! even if he turns out to be a bust, to claim he is a bust from summer league play is hysterical and way premature

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2014, 12:59:19 PM »

Offline Asher77

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I am a fan  of Rondo's game and value the true PG type players over the new breed of scorer being favored like Westbrook, Lowry, irving ect... To me it is more important that a pg control the flow of the game than provide the scoring as it is better to get scoring from the other players and keep them sharp and involved. As such I was not as much a fan of drafting Smart based on the scouting reports and video.
I have changed my mind on him because he plays the game slow, he does not turn the ball over and he is always under control. He let the game come to him in SL, made the right pass and showed great vision. He might have traits to his game like a scorer but he is a true PG at heart. He seems to lead and manage the game, he did not let mental mistakes steal momentum from his team.

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2014, 01:47:19 PM »

Offline dmopower

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I am a fan  of Rondo's game and value the true PG type players over the new breed of scorer being favored like Westbrook, Lowry, irving ect... To me it is more important that a pg control the flow of the game than provide the scoring as it is better to get scoring from the other players and keep them sharp and involved. As such I was not as much a fan of drafting Smart based on the scouting reports and video.
I have changed my mind on him because he plays the game slow, he does not turn the ball over and he is always under control. He let the game come to him in SL, made the right pass and showed great vision. He might have traits to his game like a scorer but he is a true PG at heart. He seems to lead and manage the game, he did not let mental mistakes steal momentum from his team.



A post well worth your first TP.  :)  Nice assesment
blind optimist or GENIUS

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2014, 01:49:46 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote
Avery Bradley is much less of a defensive stud than people think.

I agree.

Disagree.

I also disagree. 

There's a reason why he got a starting spot over Ray Allen - the Celtics were better with AB on the court.  That was two years ago, when he was practically still a rookie (he barely played his first season). 

His advanced defensive stats were absolutely elite in his second and third seasons - points allowed, opponent FG%, you name it.

Last year Bradley faced a number of challenges:

1) Playing under a new coach - Steven's had a different gameplan for Bradley and asked him to play less aggresively on defense, and focus more on his offenisve game

2) A change of role - Lack of scorers forced Bradley to take on a much larger role in the offense.  It's much harder to play full-court pressire defense on every possession when you are also the teams #2 scoring option. 

Possibly as a result of this, Bradley's defensive numbers slipped dramatically last season when compared to his previous two seasons.  I can only assume it's because of the above factors, because a 22 year old guy doesn't just "drop off" in one season like that for no apparent reason.  It not like he just got in to his mid 30's and his body has given up on him lol

Anyways history shows that Bradley absolutely is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA - easilly top 5, possibly above that.  The only guard I can think of who challenges him in that regard is Tony Allen, who has no offensive game at all.
He got a starting spot over Ray Allen because he was better than Ray Allen... a 36-year old Ray Allen who hasn't started since then.

Bradley's defensive "excellence" is based on his full court pressure. Unfortunately for him, that's something that's fairly easy to deal with by setting a simple back pick -- which is the reason not many people do it other than as a change of tempo. Take this out of the equation, and you've got an undersized guard that may be decent but decidedly not extraordinary defensively.

And that's before we start discussing his mental fragility and skills.

Spot on description of Bradley's value imo. TP

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #155 on: July 12, 2014, 02:08:23 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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Quote
Avery Bradley is much less of a defensive stud than people think.

I agree.

Disagree.

I also disagree. 

There's a reason why he got a starting spot over Ray Allen - the Celtics were better with AB on the court.  That was two years ago, when he was practically still a rookie (he barely played his first season). 

His advanced defensive stats were absolutely elite in his second and third seasons - points allowed, opponent FG%, you name it.

Last year Bradley faced a number of challenges:

1) Playing under a new coach - Steven's had a different gameplan for Bradley and asked him to play less aggresively on defense, and focus more on his offenisve game

2) A change of role - Lack of scorers forced Bradley to take on a much larger role in the offense.  It's much harder to play full-court pressire defense on every possession when you are also the teams #2 scoring option. 

Possibly as a result of this, Bradley's defensive numbers slipped dramatically last season when compared to his previous two seasons.  I can only assume it's because of the above factors, because a 22 year old guy doesn't just "drop off" in one season like that for no apparent reason.  It not like he just got in to his mid 30's and his body has given up on him lol

Anyways history shows that Bradley absolutely is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA - easilly top 5, possibly above that.  The only guard I can think of who challenges him in that regard is Tony Allen, who has no offensive game at all.
He got a starting spot over Ray Allen because he was better than Ray Allen... a 36-year old Ray Allen who hasn't started since then.

Bradley's defensive "excellence" is based on his full court pressure. Unfortunately for him, that's something that's fairly easy to deal with by setting a simple back pick -- which is the reason not many people do it other than as a change of tempo. Take this out of the equation, and you've got an undersized guard that may be decent but decidedly not extraordinary defensively.

And that's before we start discussing his mental fragility and skills.

Bradley is an excellent man to man defender with decent steal rate he smart and rondo will be an excellent defensive backcourt

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #156 on: July 12, 2014, 02:15:48 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Quote
Avery Bradley is much less of a defensive stud than people think.

I agree.

Disagree.

I also disagree. 

There's a reason why he got a starting spot over Ray Allen - the Celtics were better with AB on the court.  That was two years ago, when he was practically still a rookie (he barely played his first season). 

His advanced defensive stats were absolutely elite in his second and third seasons - points allowed, opponent FG%, you name it.

Last year Bradley faced a number of challenges:

1) Playing under a new coach - Steven's had a different gameplan for Bradley and asked him to play less aggresively on defense, and focus more on his offenisve game

2) A change of role - Lack of scorers forced Bradley to take on a much larger role in the offense.  It's much harder to play full-court pressire defense on every possession when you are also the teams #2 scoring option. 

Possibly as a result of this, Bradley's defensive numbers slipped dramatically last season when compared to his previous two seasons.  I can only assume it's because of the above factors, because a 22 year old guy doesn't just "drop off" in one season like that for no apparent reason.  It not like he just got in to his mid 30's and his body has given up on him lol

Anyways history shows that Bradley absolutely is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA - easilly top 5, possibly above that.  The only guard I can think of who challenges him in that regard is Tony Allen, who has no offensive game at all.
He got a starting spot over Ray Allen because he was better than Ray Allen... a 36-year old Ray Allen who hasn't started since then.

Bradley's defensive "excellence" is based on his full court pressure. Unfortunately for him, that's something that's fairly easy to deal with by setting a simple back pick -- which is the reason not many people do it other than as a change of tempo. Take this out of the equation, and you've got an undersized guard that may be decent but decidedly not extraordinary defensively.

And that's before we start discussing his mental fragility and skills.

Bradley is an excellent man to man defender with decent steal rate he smart and rondo will be an excellent defensive backcourt
oooops. my mistake. i joined this thread thinking it was about marcus smart.  ;)
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Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #157 on: July 12, 2014, 03:50:54 PM »

Offline shrinkage36

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Smart almost always played the 2 Guard in High School, but was never asked to shoot. His game in High School was to be all over the place and guard guys from the 1 to the 5 position. I'm speaking from watching him, I lived in the North Texas area when he was in high school and saw tons of games.

He dominated without scoring, very rare thing to do. So now, he's basically learning how to play the position still, and learning how to shoot. He has a good stroke, he will be a really good shooter, and a scorer.

IMO, his first couple of games, he didn't want to step on anyone's shoes, so he was hesitant to take over the game. The more the guys trust him, he will start to take over. Just watch, I've seen this throughout his young career.

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #158 on: July 12, 2014, 03:52:20 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Bradley is an excellent man to man defender with decent steal rate he smart and rondo will be an excellent defensive backcourt
Defense is not about "steal rate".
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #159 on: July 12, 2014, 07:42:46 PM »

Offline Alleyoopster

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Smart almost always played the 2 Guard in High School, but was never asked to shoot. His game in High School was to be all over the place and guard guys from the 1 to the 5 position. I'm speaking from watching him, I lived in the North Texas area when he was in high school and saw tons of games.

He dominated without scoring, very rare thing to do. So now, he's basically learning how to play the position still, and learning how to shoot. He has a good stroke, he will be a really good shooter, and a scorer.

IMO, his first couple of games, he didn't want to step on anyone's shoes, so he was hesitant to take over the game. The more the guys trust him, he will start to take over. Just watch, I've seen this throughout his young career.
Someone posted that they thought he had a lot of stamina....did you sense or see that or does he wilt when played too much? 

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #160 on: July 12, 2014, 07:59:35 PM »

Offline NorthernLightning

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He doesn't wilt, and he never seems to get tired.

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #161 on: July 12, 2014, 09:15:51 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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i chose randle over smart, love is impossible to acquire

rondo/pressey/bayless
bradley/bogan/filler
green/wallace/johnson
randle/sully/k.o.
zeller/faverani/iverson

much better

I disagree completely. 

I think Randle is a modest upgrade over Sully two years from now.  He'll be a better inside scorer, a comparable rebounder, and more athletic.  Sully is a better defener (scary as that is), a better passer, has a better jump shot and has far better Backetball IQ. 

I think Randle is a guy who will look better on a stat sheet because he'll have the conditioning to play big minutes (Sully does not) and he'll simply score more while he's on the court.  Sully on the other hand will I think have more of a positive impact on the team (from a +/- perspective) because he does all of those little things that you don't see on the stat sheet.

Smart, in theory, is simply a better player than Randle with higher upside.  Randle will likely never be a great defensive player, he doesn't have the IQ or the instincts for it.  He is basically David Lee 2.0 - a guy who scores well, but gives up just as many points as he scores.  Randles contributions will always be limited to scoring and rebouding.  He's not much of a passer either...

Smart on the other hand is already a two-way player.  In college he averaged 18 PPG while also being one of the best perimeter defends in the entire college league. In summer league he has averaged 15 PPG , 4 APG and only 1.8 TO per game, all while dominating games with his defense.  He can play two positions (PG and SG) while also being capable of defending some SF's on occasion because of his size, strength and defensive intensity.  He gets to the line constantly, (averaged around 7 FTA per game in summer league) which gives the team easy points, and puts opposing teams in to foul trouble.  Smart already has solid mechanics on his shot (look at his 80% FT shooting in summer league for proof of this) so improving his shot is certainly not an unlikely possibility...if he managed to do that he will be an absolute beast in this league.  About the only thing he DIDN'T do at a dominant level in Summer League is shoot the ball, and in the last game he even did that well.

So basically best case scenario for Randle is to become a David Lee - one dimensional offensive player who also rebounds well. 

Best case for Smart is to become a poor man's Dwyane Wade - I'll take that!

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #162 on: July 12, 2014, 09:25:01 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Quote
Avery Bradley is much less of a defensive stud than people think.

I agree.

Disagree.

I also disagree. 

There's a reason why he got a starting spot over Ray Allen - the Celtics were better with AB on the court.  That was two years ago, when he was practically still a rookie (he barely played his first season). 

His advanced defensive stats were absolutely elite in his second and third seasons - points allowed, opponent FG%, you name it.

Last year Bradley faced a number of challenges:

1) Playing under a new coach - Steven's had a different gameplan for Bradley and asked him to play less aggresively on defense, and focus more on his offenisve game

2) A change of role - Lack of scorers forced Bradley to take on a much larger role in the offense.  It's much harder to play full-court pressire defense on every possession when you are also the teams #2 scoring option. 

Possibly as a result of this, Bradley's defensive numbers slipped dramatically last season when compared to his previous two seasons.  I can only assume it's because of the above factors, because a 22 year old guy doesn't just "drop off" in one season like that for no apparent reason.  It not like he just got in to his mid 30's and his body has given up on him lol

Anyways history shows that Bradley absolutely is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA - easilly top 5, possibly above that.  The only guard I can think of who challenges him in that regard is Tony Allen, who has no offensive game at all.
He got a starting spot over Ray Allen because he was better than Ray Allen... a 36-year old Ray Allen who hasn't started since then.

Bradley's defensive "excellence" is based on his full court pressure. Unfortunately for him, that's something that's fairly easy to deal with by setting a simple back pick -- which is the reason not many people do it other than as a change of tempo. Take this out of the equation, and you've got an undersized guard that may be decent but decidedly not extraordinary defensively.

And that's before we start discussing his mental fragility and skills.

A Ray Allen who hasn't started since then because he was moved to a Miami team who had two top 5 players (at the time) in Wade and Lebron already starting at SG/SF.

In just about ANY other team that didn't already have an All-Star SG + SF, Ray Allen would have still started.

When Boston had a healthy Rondo and Bradley on the court together during that season, they were VERY difficult to beat.  Remember this was back before Rondo's defense dropped off in a dramatic way, and when we still had KG in the front court.  The addition of Bradley as a third defensive 'beast' improved Boston more dramatically on the defensive end then the addition of Ray Allen did on the offensive end.

Boston got deep in the playoffs that year as an underdog, and Bradley had a lot to do with it.  In the playoffs he gave the first two teams a ton of problems, and Boston's defense was absolutely suffocating in those two series.  We lost him just before the Miami series and the Celtics Defense while still solid) had dropped off noticably when we faced the Heat.   

Plus please remember once again that this was second year AB - this was back when he well an truly was a liablity on offense, and yet was still able to have such an overwhelmingly positive impact on the team based purely on how dominant he was on the defensive end. 

You don't make two consecutive All-Defensive teams by being anything less than an elite defensive player. 

As for the idea of setting a 'simple' back pick, there is one other talent Bradley has - he's incredibly good at getting through and around screens.  In fact he (along with Pressey) are probably two of the best in the league at that.  He often managed to slip straight between the offensive player and the pick-setter, and when he can't do that he tends to easilly get around the pick-setter.  When he does the latter heis very good at using his exceptional quickness to recover and catch up to the defensive player before they can do any damage. 

Oh and for the record, it wasn't ONLY Bradley's Isolation defense that was statistially elite in his first 2-3 seasons...that's just the part everybody saw.  His team defense stats were also in the upper echelon of the league up until last season. 

Plus, it's not only full court pressure - he has played with similarly suffocating pressure in the half court as well.  Just look at what AB did to Jameer Nelson, a highly experienced guy who has started at PG on many playoff teams, yet after having Bradley on him for half a game he was scared to so much as touch the ball. He's not the only guy Bradley has had that impact on either.   I can't think of many NBA players who have ever had that type of defensive impact on a starting PG on another team.   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 09:37:24 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #163 on: July 12, 2014, 10:01:08 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Smart almost always played the 2 Guard in High School, but was never asked to shoot. His game in High School was to be all over the place and guard guys from the 1 to the 5 position. I'm speaking from watching him, I lived in the North Texas area when he was in high school and saw tons of games.

He dominated without scoring, very rare thing to do. So now, he's basically learning how to play the position still, and learning how to shoot. He has a good stroke, he will be a really good shooter, and a scorer.

IMO, his first couple of games, he didn't want to step on anyone's shoes, so he was hesitant to take over the game. The more the guys trust him, he will start to take over. Just watch, I've seen this throughout his young career.

Wow, you got to see Smart play in high school?  Cool!  TP for that alone, haha ;D and welcome to Celticsblog! :)

Re: Marcus Smart is a bust at #6
« Reply #164 on: July 12, 2014, 10:06:26 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I am a fan  of Rondo's game and value the true PG type players over the new breed of scorer being favored like Westbrook, Lowry, irving ect... To me it is more important that a pg control the flow of the game than provide the scoring as it is better to get scoring from the other players and keep them sharp and involved. As such I was not as much a fan of drafting Smart based on the scouting reports and video.
I have changed my mind on him because he plays the game slow, he does not turn the ball over and he is always under control. He let the game come to him in SL, made the right pass and showed great vision. He might have traits to his game like a scorer but he is a true PG at heart. He seems to lead and manage the game, he did not let mental mistakes steal momentum from his team.



A post well worth your first TP.  :)  Nice assesment

I completely agree with your view of what the role of a pg should be - to set everyone else up, but then, if needed, become unstoppable down the stretch.  It's very difficult to do that, but Rondo, like Isiah Thomas, has more than mastered that over the years.  I'll have to take your word for it on Smart because I missed the summer league games :( , so TP for the analysis and welcome to Celticsblog! :)