Author Topic: Gerald Wallace: LeBron ‘Doesn't have the attitude or the fight’ of Jordan & Kobe  (Read 9997 times)

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Online Donoghus

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I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

Why?  Care to elaborate?

  Sure. Bird's arguably the best shooter of all time, in the argument for best passer of all time and one of the best rebounders ever at his position. His skill level was off the charts, kind of like LeBron's or MJ's athleticism.

Definitely agreed on the shooting.  I think the rest is a lot closer.

  Bird was clearly the better rebounder. How many small forwards were clearly better rebounders than him? And I think that ranking LeBron among today's best passers would be roughly akin to ranking Bird among the best passers ever.


We're just talking Bird & Lebron here, right?  There's no argument that Bird isn't one of the best rebounding small forwards of all time.  Are we calling Lebron a 3 in this context too?

Not sure what your point is about the passing part.  That they're both great passers?  Sure.  That's why I said I thought things were pretty close between the two so the "absurd" notion expressed earlier in the thread was a bit off.

  Whether you consider LeBron a small forward or not isn't the point. Bird was top 10 in the league in Reb/game 7 times. In LeBron's best Reb/game season he was just outside the top 20. In terms of passing, saying they're both great passers is like saying Nash and Lawson are both great passers.

You're the one who brought the small foward part in the first place.  I was just talking Lebron and Bird on the whole.  Not as small forwards.  So if you're now adding the SF part, I had to ask if you consider Lebron a SF, also or if we're comparing apples & oranges in that context. 

I'm not sure what the Nash to Lawson analogy is supposed to mean.  Is the passing bit being based on anything besides the eyeball test here?  I mean if both are averaging roughly the same assists per game for their careers, then wouldn't they be considered "close" which is my whole point in the first place?  I also realize that not all passing lead to assists but, like Faf mentioned earlier,  Lebron can make every pass too. 

We haven't even talked defense.


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Re: Gerald Wallace:
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2014, 03:59:49 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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I 100% agree with what Wallace said and I think it's absolutely true.

I personally harp on LeBron like many others but it's not because I don't think he's talented, he is.

I do have a problem with the "King" tattoo before ever playing a game in the pros, I don't care what anyone says. I do have a problem with the prognosticators labeling him as "the best player ever", "better than this guy and that guy" regardless of what his numbers may or may not indicate. it's not fair to Lebron for 1 and not fair to those before him and it deludes the fans that might not know the history of the sport.

And I do have a problem with the way he left the Cavs - leaving them(where he was a home-grown boy considered a savior) to take less money when he just left a 50+ win playoff team. why didn't he take less for the Cavs?

then the whole "Decision" nonsense. the over estimation of numerous championships that went past what he was signed for. yet he gets undeserved praise(once again) for being a smart business man.

I just perceive Lebron as clown and I think this all fits into what Wallace is saying, LeBron doesn't have that attitude to beat hurdles the way Jordan and Kobe did. he seems to want everything handed to him and take the path of least resistance.

Agree with you on Jordan but what hurdles did Kobe face???  He was with Shaq in his prime and gifted wrapped Pau Gasol in his prime??

when they lost to the spurs he didn't want to jump ship because he felt they couldn't win or weren't good enough. he stuck with it.

Offline BballTim

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I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

Why?  Care to elaborate?

  Sure. Bird's arguably the best shooter of all time, in the argument for best passer of all time and one of the best rebounders ever at his position. His skill level was off the charts, kind of like LeBron's or MJ's athleticism.

Definitely agreed on the shooting.  I think the rest is a lot closer.

  Bird was clearly the better rebounder. How many small forwards were clearly better rebounders than him? And I think that ranking LeBron among today's best passers would be roughly akin to ranking Bird among the best passers ever.


We're just talking Bird & Lebron here, right?  There's no argument that Bird isn't one of the best rebounding small forwards of all time.  Are we calling Lebron a 3 in this context too?

Not sure what your point is about the passing part.  That they're both great passers?  Sure.  That's why I said I thought things were pretty close between the two so the "absurd" notion expressed earlier in the thread was a bit off.

  Whether you consider LeBron a small forward or not isn't the point. Bird was top 10 in the league in Reb/game 7 times. In LeBron's best Reb/game season he was just outside the top 20. In terms of passing, saying they're both great passers is like saying Nash and Lawson are both great passers.

You're the one who brought the small foward part in the first place.  I was just talking Lebron and Bird on the whole.  Not as small forwards.  So if you're now adding the SF part, I had to ask if you consider Lebron a SF, also or if we're comparing apples & oranges in that context. 

I'm not sure what the Nash to Lawson analogy is supposed to mean.  Is the passing bit being based on anything besides the eyeball test here?  I mean if both are averaging roughly the same assists per game for their careers, then wouldn't they be considered "close" which is my whole point in the first place?  I also realize that not all passing lead to assists but, like Faf mentioned earlier,  Lebron can make every pass too. 

We haven't even talked defense.

  You were talking about skills. I'd say that there's a lot of the eye test involved in things like passing. I'd say that from watching both of them play Bird was a much more skilled passer than James partly because of his superior court vision. The difference in skill level between them is on the order of the difference in athleticism.

Re: Gerald Wallace:
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2014, 04:11:45 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I 100% agree with what Wallace said and I think it's absolutely true.

I personally harp on LeBron like many others but it's not because I don't think he's talented, he is.

I do have a problem with the "King" tattoo before ever playing a game in the pros, I don't care what anyone says. I do have a problem with the prognosticators labeling him as "the best player ever", "better than this guy and that guy" regardless of what his numbers may or may not indicate. it's not fair to Lebron for 1 and not fair to those before him and it deludes the fans that might not know the history of the sport.

And I do have a problem with the way he left the Cavs - leaving them(where he was a home-grown boy considered a savior) to take less money when he just left a 50+ win playoff team. why didn't he take less for the Cavs?

then the whole "Decision" nonsense. the over estimation of numerous championships that went past what he was signed for. yet he gets undeserved praise(once again) for being a smart business man.

I just perceive Lebron as clown and I think this all fits into what Wallace is saying, LeBron doesn't have that attitude to beat hurdles the way Jordan and Kobe did. he seems to want everything handed to him and take the path of least resistance.

Agree with you on Jordan but what hurdles did Kobe face???  He was with Shaq in his prime and gifted wrapped Pau Gasol in his prime??

when they lost to the spurs he didn't want to jump ship because he felt they couldn't win or weren't good enough. he stuck with it.

Sort of.
edit: wrong link:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=kobetranscript

Quote
SAS: Well, if you don't know how you can move forward that that situation, you're still under contract with them, are you saying right here on this show that you you want to be traded?

KB: Yeah, I would like to be traded, yeah.

SAS: There's no ifs, ands or buts about it?

KB: No.

SAS: It's not a situation, I know before you reportedly said that you would like them to get Jerry West back. Are you saying now emphatically, regardless of what they done, you want out of Los Angeles?

KB: Yeah, I would like to be traded. And as tough as it is to say that, as tough as it is to come to that conclusion, there's no other -- there's no other -- there's no other alternative, you know. They obviously want to move in a different direction in terms of rebuilding. I wish they would have told me that prior to me re-signing with the team. They obviously want to move in a different direction.

SAS: But they want to keep you though, Kobe. They want to move in a different direction, but they don't want to do it without you.

KB: You got to be up front about that, man. Three years ago when I was re-signing, they should have told me that they wanted to rebuild. Would have affected my decision. Don't tell me one thing and do another.

SAS: Is there anything that the Los Angeles Lakers could do to make you change your mind and decide that you do not want to be traded?

KB: No.

SAS: Nothing?

KB: No.
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I just want to say, I think game 6 was so overrated. We were still in it and most of his great play was in  the first half. I said the only difference between that and how he played in game 5 this season (few more pts), his teammates didn't step up like they did in game 6 against us! Second half of game 6 was lost by us rather than anything James did. Was it an nice game? Duh. Was it amazing? For a half, yes. To me, he does what he does a lot... go crazy until the end of games. He still is one of the best but I don't care how much BS Wallace does... I have seen James defer and choke in the crunch. You can say what you want, if James was as great in the clutch as you'd imagine, why did Wade and Bosh at one point call LeBron out for taking last shots. I remember them pretty much telling him to let Wade take the shots at the end of games. James looks to be much better at it b/c of winning. I just don't see the nasty from him at the ends of games but again, he has gotten much better.

Someone could show me stats and I'd admit to being wrong, it happens. I'm just saying, when the last 5 mins of the 4th come, other people step in for LeBron... sure he has his moments but I swear, at times I don't even know he's out there.
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Re: Gerald Wallace:
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2014, 10:01:44 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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I 100% agree with what Wallace said and I think it's absolutely true.

I personally harp on LeBron like many others but it's not because I don't think he's talented, he is.

I do have a problem with the "King" tattoo before ever playing a game in the pros, I don't care what anyone says. I do have a problem with the prognosticators labeling him as "the best player ever", "better than this guy and that guy" regardless of what his numbers may or may not indicate. it's not fair to Lebron for 1 and not fair to those before him and it deludes the fans that might not know the history of the sport.

And I do have a problem with the way he left the Cavs - leaving them(where he was a home-grown boy considered a savior) to take less money when he just left a 50+ win playoff team. why didn't he take less for the Cavs?

then the whole "Decision" nonsense. the over estimation of numerous championships that went past what he was signed for. yet he gets undeserved praise(once again) for being a smart business man.

I just perceive Lebron as clown and I think this all fits into what Wallace is saying, LeBron doesn't have that attitude to beat hurdles the way Jordan and Kobe did. he seems to want everything handed to him and take the path of least resistance.

Agree with you on Jordan but what hurdles did Kobe face???  He was with Shaq in his prime and gifted wrapped Pau Gasol in his prime??

when they lost to the spurs he didn't want to jump ship because he felt they couldn't win or weren't good enough. he stuck with it.

Sort of.
edit: wrong link:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=kobetranscript

Quote
SAS: Well, if you don't know how you can move forward that that situation, you're still under contract with them, are you saying right here on this show that you you want to be traded?

KB: Yeah, I would like to be traded, yeah.

SAS: There's no ifs, ands or buts about it?

KB: No.

SAS: It's not a situation, I know before you reportedly said that you would like them to get Jerry West back. Are you saying now emphatically, regardless of what they done, you want out of Los Angeles?

KB: Yeah, I would like to be traded. And as tough as it is to say that, as tough as it is to come to that conclusion, there's no other -- there's no other -- there's no other alternative, you know. They obviously want to move in a different direction in terms of rebuilding. I wish they would have told me that prior to me re-signing with the team. They obviously want to move in a different direction.

SAS: But they want to keep you though, Kobe. They want to move in a different direction, but they don't want to do it without you.

KB: You got to be up front about that, man. Three years ago when I was re-signing, they should have told me that they wanted to rebuild. Would have affected my decision. Don't tell me one thing and do another.

SAS: Is there anything that the Los Angeles Lakers could do to make you change your mind and decide that you do not want to be traded?

KB: No.

SAS: Nothing?

KB: No.

glad you brought this up. the only times Kobe ever wanted out of LA was when he and Shaq were teammates. I'm pretty sure he said at some point that the organization needed to make a choice between the 2. nothing to do with his teammates being bad or not good enough or ever gave the impression that the Spurs scared him.

the other time, is referenced in that link you provided. at kobe's age why would you want to go through a rebuild? big difference in wanting to leave a rebuilding team and wanting to leave a team that just came off a finals appearance like LeBron just did.

kobe doesn't have the time left in his career to wait. Lebron just sees an obstacle that will be difficult to overcome.

Offline D.o.s.

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For what its worth, that interview is from 2007, when Kobe was 28, about to turn 29. A little younger than LeBron is now.
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Offline TwinTower14

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I just want to say, I think game 6 was so overrated. We were still in it and most of his great play was in  the first half. I said the only difference between that and how he played in game 5 this season (few more pts), his teammates didn't step up like they did in game 6 against us! Second half of game 6 was lost by us rather than anything James did. Was it an nice game? Duh. Was it amazing? For a half, yes. To me, he does what he does a lot... go crazy until the end of games. He still is one of the best but I don't care how much BS Wallace does... I have seen James defer and choke in the crunch. You can say what you want, if James was as great in the clutch as you'd imagine, why did Wade and Bosh at one point call LeBron out for taking last shots. I remember them pretty much telling him to let Wade take the shots at the end of games. James looks to be much better at it b/c of winning. I just don't see the nasty from him at the ends of games but again, he has gotten much better.

Someone could show me stats and I'd admit to being wrong, it happens. I'm just saying, when the last 5 mins of the 4th come, other people step in for LeBron... sure he has his moments but I swear, at times I don't even know he's out there.

You can hate Lebron all you want but to say Game 6 is overrated is just false - He had 45 pts - Wade had 17 and nobody else had double figures!!!  So in a game where his legacy was about to head in the tank!  He scored just under 50% of the teams points.  He had a 1/3 of the teams rebounds and a third of the teams assist! All while holding Pierce to 9 points on 4-18 shooting...You will be hard pressed to find another game as dominate as he was that night in the last 4 or 5 years...He was awesome that night and anyone who doesn't think so is just being a hater...

Online Donoghus

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I just want to say, I think game 6 was so overrated. We were still in it and most of his great play was in  the first half. I said the only difference between that and how he played in game 5 this season (few more pts), his teammates didn't step up like they did in game 6 against us! Second half of game 6 was lost by us rather than anything James did. Was it an nice game? Duh. Was it amazing? For a half, yes. To me, he does what he does a lot... go crazy until the end of games. He still is one of the best but I don't care how much BS Wallace does... I have seen James defer and choke in the crunch. You can say what you want, if James was as great in the clutch as you'd imagine, why did Wade and Bosh at one point call LeBron out for taking last shots. I remember them pretty much telling him to let Wade take the shots at the end of games. James looks to be much better at it b/c of winning. I just don't see the nasty from him at the ends of games but again, he has gotten much better.

Someone could show me stats and I'd admit to being wrong, it happens. I'm just saying, when the last 5 mins of the 4th come, other people step in for LeBron... sure he has his moments but I swear, at times I don't even know he's out there.

You can hate Lebron all you want but to say Game 6 is overrated is just false - He had 45 pts - Wade had 17 and nobody else had double figures!!!  So in a game where his legacy was about to head in the tank!  He scored just under 50% of the teams points.  He had a 1/3 of the teams rebounds and a third of the teams assist! All while holding Pierce to 9 points on 4-18 shooting...You will be hard pressed to find another game as dominate as he was that night in the last 4 or 5 years...He was awesome that night and anyone who doesn't think so is just being a hater...

I'd agree with this.

This is before ring #1 and his team was down 3-2 on the road.  There was a ton of weight on his shoulders during this time and, unfortunately to all of us, Lebron stepped up bigtime.


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Re: Gerald Wallace:
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2014, 11:13:09 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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For what its worth, that interview is from 2007, when Kobe was 28, about to turn 29. A little younger than LeBron is now.

ahh, I didn't click on the link, I just read what you had posted. still he stayed and stuck it out - it was a challenge he didn't walk away from.

Re: Gerald Wallace:
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2014, 11:21:39 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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For what its worth, that interview is from 2007, when Kobe was 28, about to turn 29. A little younger than LeBron is now.

ahh, I didn't click on the link, I just read what you had posted. still he stayed and stuck it out - it was a challenge he didn't walk away from.

... Because the Lakers were able to swap Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol. If LeBron had a front office that could've pulled off a move like that, there's no way he leaves Cleveland.
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Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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I just want to say, I think game 6 was so overrated. We were still in it and most of his great play was in  the first half. I said the only difference between that and how he played in game 5 this season (few more pts), his teammates didn't step up like they did in game 6 against us! Second half of game 6 was lost by us rather than anything James did. Was it an nice game? Duh. Was it amazing? For a half, yes. To me, he does what he does a lot... go crazy until the end of games. He still is one of the best but I don't care how much BS Wallace does... I have seen James defer and choke in the crunch. You can say what you want, if James was as great in the clutch as you'd imagine, why did Wade and Bosh at one point call LeBron out for taking last shots. I remember them pretty much telling him to let Wade take the shots at the end of games. James looks to be much better at it b/c of winning. I just don't see the nasty from him at the ends of games but again, he has gotten much better.

Someone could show me stats and I'd admit to being wrong, it happens. I'm just saying, when the last 5 mins of the 4th come, other people step in for LeBron... sure he has his moments but I swear, at times I don't even know he's out there.

You can hate Lebron all you want but to say Game 6 is overrated is just false - He had 45 pts - Wade had 17 and nobody else had double figures!!!  So in a game where his legacy was about to head in the tank!  He scored just under 50% of the teams points.  He had a 1/3 of the teams rebounds and a third of the teams assist! All while holding Pierce to 9 points on 4-18 shooting...You will be hard pressed to find another game as dominate as he was that night in the last 4 or 5 years...He was awesome that night and anyone who doesn't think so is just being a hater...

I know it makes you feel good inside to call me a hater but just bc I dont agree with your opinion of the game doesn't make me a hater. I'll continue to agree that was an amazing half and he did what he had to game 6.  Doesn't mean I have to agree it was an amazing game. I'm giving my opinion like you are, we can agree to disagree if it makes you feel better.


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Offline TwinTower14

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I just want to say, I think game 6 was so overrated. We were still in it and most of his great play was in  the first half. I said the only difference between that and how he played in game 5 this season (few more pts), his teammates didn't step up like they did in game 6 against us! Second half of game 6 was lost by us rather than anything James did. Was it an nice game? Duh. Was it amazing? For a half, yes. To me, he does what he does a lot... go crazy until the end of games. He still is one of the best but I don't care how much BS Wallace does... I have seen James defer and choke in the crunch. You can say what you want, if James was as great in the clutch as you'd imagine, why did Wade and Bosh at one point call LeBron out for taking last shots. I remember them pretty much telling him to let Wade take the shots at the end of games. James looks to be much better at it b/c of winning. I just don't see the nasty from him at the ends of games but again, he has gotten much better.

Someone could show me stats and I'd admit to being wrong, it happens. I'm just saying, when the last 5 mins of the 4th come, other people step in for LeBron... sure he has his moments but I swear, at times I don't even know he's out there.

You can hate Lebron all you want but to say Game 6 is overrated is just false - He had 45 pts - Wade had 17 and nobody else had double figures!!!  So in a game where his legacy was about to head in the tank!  He scored just under 50% of the teams points.  He had a 1/3 of the teams rebounds and a third of the teams assist! All while holding Pierce to 9 points on 4-18 shooting...You will be hard pressed to find another game as dominate as he was that night in the last 4 or 5 years...He was awesome that night and anyone who doesn't think so is just being a hater...

I know it makes you feel good inside to call me a hater but just bc I dont agree with your opinion of the game doesn't make me a hater. I'll continue to agree that was an amazing half and he did what he had to game 6.  Doesn't mean I have to agree it was an amazing game. I'm giving my opinion like you are, we can agree to disagree if it makes you feel better.

You facts aren't correct regarding that game - The C's were never in it, they never got closer than 13 pts in the second half.....Why weren't they in it?  Because Lebron, with everything on the line that night at the Garden, literally destroyed the C's by scoring 30 pts in the first half.  I understand that people hate Lebron James, I get it.  He is a dink but for anyone to say that game is overrated is just being a hater IMO....there is nothing to hate about that game?

You can take that game and Pistons game when he destroyed them and knocked them out of the playoffs as two of the best playoff performances in the last decade....

I know it's fun to hate the guy but let's be realistic around here, the guy is special and we probably won't see another player of his caliber for a long long long time....


Not only that - have you ever looked at his playoff run to his first title???  30/10/6 in 23 games....pretty incredible stuff!  Has he choked in big games before? Yes! but who hasn't??