Gerald Wallace: LeBron ‘Doesn't have the attitude or the fight’ of Jordan & Kobe

[Eja117]

I love it... everyone here telling Gerald Wallace to shut up that he shouldn't be able to talk trash.

Then you go to the next LeBron thread and trash LeBron yourself.

Awesome!

woah woah woah. We do our jobs. Wallace doesn't. And Lebron gets a free pass for everything he does. Of course we're gonna trash these guys.

[BballTim]

I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

Why?  Care to elaborate?

  Sure. Bird's arguably the best shooter of all time, in the argument for best passer of all time and one of the best rebounders ever at his position. His skill level was off the charts, kind of like LeBron's or MJ's athleticism.

Definitely agreed on the shooting.  I think the rest is a lot closer.

  Bird was clearly the better rebounder. How many small forwards were clearly better rebounders than him? And I think that ranking LeBron among today's best passers would be roughly akin to ranking Bird among the best passers ever.

[GreenWarrior]

I 100% agree with what Wallace said and I think it's absolutely true.

I personally harp on LeBron like many others but it's not because I don't think he's talented, he is.

I do have a problem with the "King" tattoo before ever playing a game in the pros, I don't care what anyone says. I do have a problem with the prognosticators labeling him as "the best player ever", "better than this guy and that guy" regardless of what his numbers may or may not indicate. it's not fair to Lebron for 1 and not fair to those before him and it deludes the fans that might not know the history of the sport.

And I do have a problem with the way he left the Cavs - leaving them(where he was a home-grown boy considered a savior) to take less money when he just left a 50+ win playoff team. why didn't he take less for the Cavs?

then the whole "Decision" nonsense. the over estimation of numerous championships that went past what he was signed for. yet he gets undeserved praise(once again) for being a smart business man.

I just perceive Lebron as clown and I think this all fits into what Wallace is saying, LeBron doesn't have that attitude to beat hurdles the way Jordan and Kobe did. he seems to want everything handed to him and take the path of least resistance.

[Fafnir]

He was an efficient scorer, except he had an abysmal free-throw shooting year. Also, his turnover rate was completely horrible.

His turnover rate was what it has always been. The only reason you've noticed it was because Wallace was not a scorer of any sort last season, efficient or otherwise. He took 4 shots a game, couldn't score from outside of 3 feet, and couldn't hit a free throw. He wasn't simply bad, he was completely and utterly abysmal.

I have no problem with him if he could sit on the bench and keep his trap shut (because I certainly don't want to see him in a game), but the latter has been an issue.

Sorry, but that's completely false. His turnover rate was extremely higher this year than in seasons past. It's not even close, particularly when you consider his low usage rate.

In addition, he had the best shooting percentage from the corner 3 on the team, at 58%.  Whether or not he took enough of them, or passed up good opportunities, is open to debate, but it's a complete and utter inaccuracy to say he couldn't score from outside 3 feet.  He was elite from the corner.

Yeah, on a sample of ~10 makes. I wouldn't read too much into it.

While that's not untrue (he was 11-19), he could have missed his next 9 attempts from the corner and still have shot it better from there than anyone else who's likely to be on the team next season.  Small sample size doesn't completely explain it.

It pretty much does. FG% vary a lot for players from year to year with noise, and that is on 100s of attempts. 19 attempts is nothing, you can draw no conclusions from it good or bad.

The rest of Wallace's jumpshooting the past two years lets us draw an easy conclusion, he can't shoot a lick anymore.

That and the fact that no one bothered to guard him more than 10 feet from the hoop on the ball because he shot so poorly this year. Beyond even his poor shooting he was scared to shoot and would often drive into the defense or just pass it back out immediately to avoid having to do something with the ball.

[TwinTower14]

I 100% agree with what Wallace said and I think it's absolutely true.

I personally harp on LeBron like many others but it's not because I don't think he's talented, he is.

I do have a problem with the "King" tattoo before ever playing a game in the pros, I don't care what anyone says. I do have a problem with the prognosticators labeling him as "the best player ever", "better than this guy and that guy" regardless of what his numbers may or may not indicate. it's not fair to Lebron for 1 and not fair to those before him and it deludes the fans that might not know the history of the sport.

And I do have a problem with the way he left the Cavs - leaving them(where he was a home-grown boy considered a savior) to take less money when he just left a 50+ win playoff team. why didn't he take less for the Cavs?

then the whole "Decision" nonsense. the over estimation of numerous championships that went past what he was signed for. yet he gets undeserved praise(once again) for being a smart business man.

I just perceive Lebron as clown and I think this all fits into what Wallace is saying, LeBron doesn't have that attitude to beat hurdles the way Jordan and Kobe did. he seems to want everything handed to him and take the path of least resistance.

Agree with you on Jordan but what hurdles did Kobe face???  He was with Shaq in his prime and gifted wrapped Pau Gasol in his prime?? 

[GreenEnvy]

Our friend Gerald Wallace is back, glad to hear from him early in free-agency. Last year we didn't hear from him until November or such.

In any case, some highlights:

“Jordan never had an off night,” Wallace told myfoxal.com. “He found many ways to contribute to the team, and I’d say Kobe [Bryant] is pretty much the same. You can put Lebron in that category. I think what separates LeBron from Kobe and Michael Jordan right now is that he doesn’t have the attitude or the fight that those guys had. For me, he’s not willing to take over a game, demand a game or put the game all on his shoulders. I would like to see him get to that one day, but right now I don’t think he has that, and that’s what Michael Jordan and even Kobe has.”

.........


“It wasn’t as bad as I thought it was for me,” Wallace said of Boston. “Being where I’m at in my career, I think once I got there I was kind of against starting over and rebuilding a team, but being there, being a veteran, being able to help some of the young guys mature and develop themselves in the league and just given the experience that I was able to give to those guys turned out to be pretty much a good year for me. So, I was excited about it. I think I had a great time this year. I’m looking forward to going back and improving. We had [Rajon] Rondo for midway of the season, so I’m looking forward to being with him for a full season. So, it’ll be interesting this upcoming year.”

http://greenstreet.weei.com/sports/boston/basketball/celtics/2014/07/10/gerald-wallace-lebron-james-doesnt-have-the-attitude-or-the-fight-of-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant/

I guess Gerald wasn't watching Game 6 of the ECF in 2012. I still shudder when I think about what he did to us that night.

[Donoghus]

I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

Why?  Care to elaborate?

  Sure. Bird's arguably the best shooter of all time, in the argument for best passer of all time and one of the best rebounders ever at his position. His skill level was off the charts, kind of like LeBron's or MJ's athleticism.

Definitely agreed on the shooting.  I think the rest is a lot closer.

  Bird was clearly the better rebounder. How many small forwards were clearly better rebounders than him? And I think that ranking LeBron among today's best passers would be roughly akin to ranking Bird among the best passers ever.

We're just talking Bird & Lebron here, right?  There's no argument that Bird isn't one of the best rebounding small forwards of all time.  Are we calling Lebron a 3 in this context too?

Not sure what your point is about the passing part.  That they're both great passers?  Sure.  That's why I said I thought things were pretty close between the two so the "absurd" notion expressed earlier in the thread was a bit off.

[mgent]

I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

I agree with this, and I think the whole head down & steamroll thing is part of it.  LeBron's assist total is the main thing that makes people drool over his skill.  However, there's a huge difference in the amount of skill involved between the LeBron/Westbrook style of getting 7 assists per game by barreling into the paint and then dumping the ball, to the Bird/Rondo style of running an offense.

Just because LeBron is in Bird's ballpark for assists, that doesn't mean he requires as much skill to get them.  I think you'd agree that it's absurd to compare LeBron's athleticism (or Kobe's) to Bird, so it's obviously logical to think Bird had SOMETHING that those guys don't.  If it's not skill then what is your hypothesis?

[Fafnir]

LeBron can make every pass though, just because he gets a lot of assists of dribble penetration doesn't mean he doesn't also get them in the post, on the break, or off of other traditional action.

The game doesn't look the same because the rules have changed and styles have changed hugely.

[Jonny CC]

Wallace is definitely wrong about the "taking over a game & putting the game all on his shoulders" thing.  Detroit in '07 & Boston in '12 were two of the most dominant individual player performances I've ever seen.

The point is that there have been a lot of games where LBJ was a non-factor.  I don't think you can say the same about Jordan.   

[Celtics4ever]

The game doesn't look the same because the rules have changed and styles have changed hugely.

Yeah, it is easier today, now defenses can't hold you, knock the heck of people or mug you.

[D.o.s.]

I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

I agree with this, and I think the whole head down & steamroll thing is part of it.  LeBron's assist total is the main thing that makes people drool over his skill.  However, there's a huge difference in the amount of skill involved between the LeBron/Westbrook style of getting 7 assists per game by barreling into the paint and then dumping the ball, to the Bird/Rondo style of running an offense.

Just because LeBron is in Bird's ballpark for assists, that doesn't mean he requires as much skill to get them.  I think you'd agree that it's absurd to compare LeBron's athleticism (or Kobe's) to Bird, so it's obviously logical to think Bird had SOMETHING that those guys don't.  If it's not skill then what is your hypothesis?

Teammates who made up arguably the best team in NBA History?

[BballTim]

I think G-Dub talks way too much but he is on to something here.

Jordan & Kobe along with Bird & a few others have/had this incredible fight about them & attitude.  It's a bit tough to try & convey it in words but essentially losing killed them.  Those guys had this ridiculous competitive gene and you'd often see them take it out on both teammates and opponents.  I don't quite see that from Lebron.  Certainly more passive in that area although he is certainly still a leader out there.  He just seems to lead in a different way than guys like Jordan & Kobe.   

From a basketball skillpoint, Lebron might be better than all of them when all is said & done but, in terms of drive & desire, he's not on the same page.  I don't think you'll ever hear people talking about the "drive & desire" of Lebron James in the first sentence of an epitaph about him.

EDIT:  Also, I'm not what you'd consider a Lebron basher.  I think a lot of the criticism and hatred of him on here is unwarranted.  He's already one of the all-time greats.

There is no way in h-e double hockey sticks that I'll ever be able to say Lebron has more "basketball skills" than Jordan, Kobe, or Bird. I just think that is absurd. James uses his brute size and force to do a lot of things. Putting his head down and steamrolling guys is not a "basketball skill" and it certainly never will come close to anything Jordan Kobe or Bird could do from a basketball stand point.

Will he be an all time great? Yes there's no way to deny it even being a Lebron hater. But his legacy is more Shaq like dominance compared to basketball skill beauty.

"Absurd to say" is certainly some hyperbole.  Doesn't seem so far-fetched. He does a lot more than just put his head down & steamroll guys.  If you think that's the only way he plays basketball, you're missing out.  Also, if you had a physical advantage, why wouldn't you use it?

  It's not absurd to compare his skills to Kobe or even to MJ, but IMO it is with Bird. By the same token, it's fairly absurd to compare Kobe's skills to Bird's, and I don't think MJ was all that close.

Why?  Care to elaborate?

  Sure. Bird's arguably the best shooter of all time, in the argument for best passer of all time and one of the best rebounders ever at his position. His skill level was off the charts, kind of like LeBron's or MJ's athleticism.

Definitely agreed on the shooting.  I think the rest is a lot closer.

  Bird was clearly the better rebounder. How many small forwards were clearly better rebounders than him? And I think that ranking LeBron among today's best passers would be roughly akin to ranking Bird among the best passers ever.

We're just talking Bird & Lebron here, right?  There's no argument that Bird isn't one of the best rebounding small forwards of all time.  Are we calling Lebron a 3 in this context too?

Not sure what your point is about the passing part.  That they're both great passers?  Sure.  That's why I said I thought things were pretty close between the two so the "absurd" notion expressed earlier in the thread was a bit off.

  Whether you consider LeBron a small forward or not isn't the point. Bird was top 10 in the league in Reb/game 7 times. In LeBron's best Reb/game season he was just outside the top 20. In terms of passing, saying they're both great passers is like saying Nash and Lawson are both great passers.

[D.o.s.]

The game doesn't look the same because the rules have changed and styles have changed hugely.

Yeah, it is easier today, now defenses can't hold you, knock the heck of people or mug you.

...which would make the game harder, at least when you're team doesn't have the ball.

[BballTim]

LeBron can make every pass though, just because he gets a lot of assists of dribble penetration doesn't mean he doesn't also get them in the post, on the break, or off of other traditional action.

   I think if you watch some youtube highlights of Bird's passing you'll see a fair amount of passes that LeBron can't make.