Why would Love want to come here and why would we want him to?

[ctrey]

If my post is going to be referred to as a "straw man" argument, at least spell "straw man" correctly.

Moving on, no one who disagrees with me about "Stopping at Asik" mentions who else we would realistically get. Who could we really get? Plus, Love wants Max money, that has been made quite clear. Rondo also has been clear about wanting really big money. Asik is going to get around 12 million so that puts us at around 50-55 million on three players.

So until we produce this other brilliant player I reserve the right to stick to my argument that we can realistically get those three and that would be it. This leads to my point that Love would be in the same place with us that he was with Minnesota: A team that is good but not great.

Also, I want to reiterate my point that why would WE want Love, regardless if HE wanted US. He has put up brilliant numbers but has never made the playoffs. I worry he is this great numbers guy but it does not translate to wins. I am shocked that a player putting up those kinds of numbers has never made the playoffs. Has that ever happened? Having a player who statistically was that good yet the team does not make the playoffs? I am at a loss to think of someone. On this point I want to say that I think Sullinger will be close to Love statistically yet will cost much less. I think this. I may be wrong. Willing to debate this point but judging where Sullinger has been to where he is headed I truly think he will be at 18 and 11 next year or darn close. Maybe I am way off base on Olynyk but he seemed to be trending toward a great 6th man.
Regarding exhausting our assets, I admit we have no clue how much we will need to give up but from what is out there I think the price will be steep.
Finally, I still think Minnesota will not deal to us because of our history with KG. That point was not assailed so I contend it is a viable point.
In the end I do not see Love as the magic bullet that KG was. Remember too that Ray Allen was dealt here because Seattle (Soon to be Oklahoma) was in full nuclear rebuild. We needed Allen first to get KG. We also were in a better place salary wise back then as well. 

[Aymanelgowainy]

If my post is going to be referred to as a "straw man" argument, at least spell "straw man" correctly.

Moving on, no one who disagrees with me about "Stopping at Asik" mentions who else we would realistically get. Who could we really get? Plus, Love wants Max money, that has been made quite clear. Rondo also has been clear about wanting really big money. Asik is going to get around 12 million so that puts us at around 50-55 million on three players.

So until we produce this other brilliant player I reserve the right to stick to my argument that we can realistically get those three and that would be it. This leads to my point that Love would be in the same place with us that he was with Minnesota: A team that is good but not great.

Also, I want to reiterate my point that why would WE want Love, regardless if HE wanted US. He has put up brilliant numbers but has never made the playoffs. I worry he is this great numbers guy but it does not translate to wins. I am shocked that a player putting up those kinds of numbers has never made the playoffs. Has that ever happened? Having a player who statistically was that good yet the team does not make the playoffs? I am at a loss to think of someone. On this point I want to say that I think Sullinger will be close to Love statistically yet will cost much less. I think this. I may be wrong. Willing to debate this point but judging where Sullinger has been to where he is headed I truly think he will be at 18 and 11 next year or darn close. Maybe I am way off base on Olynyk but he seemed to be trending toward a great 6th man.
Regarding exhausting our assets, I admit we have no clue how much we will need to give up but from what is out there I think the price will be steep.
Finally, I still think Minnesota will not deal to us because of our history with KG. That point was not assailed so I contend it is a viable point.
In the end I do not see Love as the magic bullet that KG was. Remember too that Ray Allen was dealt here because Seattle (Soon to be Oklahoma) was in full nuclear rebuild. We needed Allen first to get KG. We also were in a better place salary wise back then as well.

Asik aint gonna make 12 mil for sure... Id much rather let him walk in FA next summer... Hes on the decline and if we offer him that much we'll regret it for sure... And to answer ur question about a 3rd star, Rondo and Love will attract anyone they want... Next summer when Wallace will be an expiring and we will have Asik and possibly Lin off the books, we'll have the cap space to go after one of Deandre Jordan, Marc Gasol as well as bring back Rondo and Love to near-max if not max contracts... Rondo doesnt seem to care too much about the money as even he thinks he's making star money now... IMO hes just waiting for FA to resign so he can get that no trade clause so all the BS rumors about him would stop... Therefore by all indications we could be able to resign Rondo for about $15mil and we can throw around $18-20 mil at Love... Marc Gasol isnt gonna get a max contract at that stage in his career so i think he'll sign for around $15mil as well...Thats just $50mil but with a much better option without Wallace, Green(if he uses his PO) and Asiks contracts... That gives us more than $25mil to play with for the rest of our roster... Sounds like a contender to me..

[Roy H.]

Enough bickering.  Warnings and/or other discipline have been issued.

[YoungOne87]

why trade for a very good PF despite having 2 promising PF's already?
why dont upgrade another position?

[Future Celtics Owner]

I will never understand why people read "we shouldn't trade away a ton of draft picks for Kevin Love" as "we should use those draft picks to draft rookies instead."

Please read this again.

You don't actually have to draft with all those picks.  You can move them in subsequent trade packages.

In order to get this team back to contendership, it's going to take more than Love.  More moves will have to be made. 

Those picks can also act as currency.

The point is not "we shouldn't trade picks for Kevin Love." The point is "we shouldn't trade too many picks for Kevin Love," which does not mean that the preferred plan is to use all of those remaining draft picks on prospective rookie players.

I think a lot of people are trying to express their fear of getting ripped off because most reports mention us giving up sully and then anywhere from 3-5 picks.

[Aymanelgowainy]

Enough bickering.  Warnings and/or other discipline have been issued.

Wait are only CelticsBlog writers allowed to write in that cool font? I want it too!!

[Aymanelgowainy]

why trade for a very good PF despite having 2 promising PF's already?
why dont upgrade another position?

Because although theyre promising, theyre not superstar top 10 level players... Kevin Love type of players are only available once in a blue moon so u might as well take ur chance when u get it..

[D.o.s.]

Let's say Ainge stops with Asik and Love which is doubtful and the trade is Sully, Bass, Bogans, draft picks TPE to get these 2 guys.  We are still left with:

Asik/KO/Iverson
Love/Humphries(bird rights)
Green/Wallace
Bradley(bird rights), Bayless(bird rights)
Rondo/Pressey

That by itself is very solid team.  Then factor in Ainge will have leftover draft picks and the MLE to play with.

You have to get very lucky in the draft to get a star player of Love's caliber.  Consider the draft slots of 5, 11, and 14.  That's where Green, Bayless, and Humphries were drafted.  Even if we don't make the playoffs over the next couple years it will be hard to draft players better than these guys as it's such a crapshoot. It's also no guarantee we'll have better draft position with the future BKN picks.

It's not like Ainge will be selling off the entire future farm and it's crops.  He will still have some picks to play with.

Exactly!

There's either this misconception that landing Love will dry up all of our draft picks and/or we should instead save the draft picks in a trade for another player.

We have enough "assets" for more than one trade and who's the other player currently available that you're going to trade for? (crickets)

Asik is bandied about a lot. Larry Sanders is another one. Some people like Eric Gordon if you can move Wallace's contract at the same time.


This, by the way, is you shifting the framework of the discussion: I thought you'd already said you weren't going to use the phrase assets. 

Lol?.see the quotation marks.

And to your response, like I was saying, the Celts have enough chips to land both Love and a decent rim-protecting big like Asik or Sanders.

As for Eric Gordon, he's too injury prone. No interest him.

If there's anyone thinking we should maybe save some of the picks for someone else like Aldridge or M. Gasol, there's no indication either one of those guys will be available.

Hence the 

Personally, I'm hedging on the idea that Love Rondo + Change won't be enough to get us over the top, we're going to need reinforcements for them, and whether we end up using some of the draft picks to grab talented rookies or holding on to them to obtain further players or flexibility, the important thing is that we have to have them in the first place.

[Lucky17]

If my post is going to be referred to as a "straw man" argument, at least spell "straw man" correctly.

I call it poetic license. I've not misspelled it. I've simply removed the space. 

Moving on, no one who disagrees with me about "Stopping at Asik" mentions who else we would realistically get. Who could we really get?

Possibilities abound. Add a 1st rounder to Bradley, Green, or Asik for an upgrade at that position. Or consolidate some bench contracts (Bayless or Humphries via S&T) with a 1st for a an impact player. We can agree that Ainge can find a deal with those assets, even without naming specifics, surely.

Plus, Love wants Max money, that has been made quite clear. Rondo also has been clear about wanting really big money. Asik is going to get around 12 million so that puts us at around 50-55 million on three players.

Posters have demonstrated that Rondo will not necessarily ask for max money. Asik at 12 milion on his next contract? If that's true, sign and trade him to the team that wants to pay him that much, and recoup assets. If he commands that price tag, he's the #1 FA center out there. More grist for Ainge's trade mill.

So until we produce this other brilliant player I reserve the right to stick to my argument that we can realistically get those three and that would be it. This leads to my point that Love would be in the same place with us that he was with Minnesota: A team that is good but not great.

Then you're selling Ainge short. Because a Rondo/Love/Asik troika, plus Green and Bradley, probably wins the Atlantic. Meaning HCA in the 1st round of the playoffs. Meaning, a playoff team that can make noise. Ainge will still have the MLE and additional assets to add to that starting five.

Also, I want to reiterate my point that why would WE want Love, regardless if HE wanted US. He has put up brilliant numbers but has never made the playoffs. I worry he is this great numbers guy but it does not translate to wins. I am shocked that a player putting up those kinds of numbers has never made the playoffs. Has that ever happened? Having a player who statistically was that good yet the team does not make the playoffs? I am at a loss to think of someone. On this point I want to say that I think Sullinger will be close to Love statistically yet will cost much less. I think this. I may be wrong. Willing to debate this point but judging where Sullinger has been to where he is headed I truly think he will be at 18 and 11 next year or darn close. Maybe I am way off base on Olynyk but he seemed to be trending toward a great 6th man.

I've got no problem with this. These are feelings, and I think they are legitimate, because they cannot be disproven. Sully could average 18 and 11. Olynyk could be a great 6th man. But Love has a demonstrated track record of performance. One could simply discredit him as "stat-padding", but if the Celtics with Sullinger and Olynyk aren't winning important games, couldn't the same be said of them if they put up big numbers?

Regarding exhausting our assets, I admit we have no clue how much we will need to give up
but from what is out there I think the price will be steep.

The price should be steep. Love is widely regarded as a top-10 or top-15 player. Boston will have to offer the Wolves value. But even if the price tag is Sully or KO, plus four picks (#6, #17, a future lottery-protected 1st, and the Philly "1st"), plus filler, I think that's worth the risk, and it still leaves plenty of bullets in Ainge's ammo belt.

Finally, I still think Minnesota will not deal to us because of our history with KG. That point was not assailed so I contend it is a viable point.

Only if Glen Taylor has a problem. No one else in the Wolves' FO was involved in the KG deal. And if Boston does offer the best value for Love, if the Wolves don't take it because of past history, they do themselves a disservice.

In the end I do not see Love as the magic bullet that KG was. Remember too that Ray Allen was dealt here because Seattle (Soon to be Oklahoma) was in full nuclear rebuild. We needed Allen first to get KG. We also were in a better place salary wise back then as well.

Love alone won't do it. He's talented, but Ainge would need to do more work. Asik would be a good complement to Love in the starting frontcourt, and there'd still be enough to add to the core going forward.

But, as you say, KG wasn't the magic bullet either. Ray Allen had to be secured before KG would agree to the trade, because he knew that Boston needed more to advance to contender level.

Love presents a terrific opportunity to add an All-Star caliber player to an All-Star caliber point guard. Having two All-Stars makes it easier to acquire a third. If the price is right, it's time for Ainge to strike.

[Beat LA]

Having Rondo and Love entices other players to want to come here now. Whose to say Carmelo won't look at Boston and say, "pretty good chance at a title right there."

I will never understand why anyone would be in favor of sucking for 5 years just to see what could POTENTIALLY come of draft picks. I want to watch good basketball now.

Why would we have to suck for 5 years?  If Danny could actually draft players, it wouldn't take that long.  Also, I've never liked the whole renting superstars thing.  It creates an atmosphere lacking any loyalty, because what person wants to be a pawn?  No - build from the draft, like the Celtics always have, like the Pacers did.  It's the right way to do it, and, imho, is far more rewarding.  Will it take time?  Yes, but it doesn't have to take forever.  I just hate labeling players as 'assets'.  The Celtics tradition was built on loyalty.  Plus, in the case of Kevin Love, the big question is who can he guard, especially if he has no shot blocker behind him?  Yes, we've been over Asik, but I don't get why people would want to trade for a center with no offensive talent, and who can't make free throws.  Why not get Okafor instead?  We wouldn't have to give anything, or anyone, up?  He's a UCONN guy.  I can't imagine he'd hate coming back to New England, but you never know.

[Lucky17]

Having Rondo and Love entices other players to want to come here now. Whose to say Carmelo won't look at Boston and say, "pretty good chance at a title right there."

I will never understand why anyone would be in favor of sucking for 5 years just to see what could POTENTIALLY come of draft picks. I want to watch good basketball now.

Why would we have to suck for 5 years?  If Danny could actually draft players, it wouldn't take that long.  Also, I've never liked the whole renting superstars thing.  It creates an atmosphere lacking any loyalty, because what person wants to be a pawn?  No - build from the draft, like the Celtics always have, like the Pacers did.  It's the right way to do it, and, imho, is far more rewarding.  Will it take time?  Yes, but it doesn't have to take forever.  I just hate labeling players as 'assets'.  The Celtics tradition was built on loyalty.  Plus, in the case of Kevin Love, the big question is who can he guard, especially if he has no shot blocker behind him?  Yes, we've been over Asik, but I don't get why people would want to trade for a center with no offensive talent, and who can't make free throws.  Why not get Okafor instead?  We wouldn't have to give anything, or anyone, up?  He's a UCONN guy.  I can't imagine he'd hate coming back to New England, but you never know.

I'd love them both, frankly.

And during the 2012-13 season, the last meaningful season (e.g., close to 30 mpg) they both played, Asik averaged more points, rebounds, and blocks than Okafor.

[SHAQATTACK]

To get Flip Saunders fired ?

[Beat LA]

Having Rondo and Love entices other players to want to come here now. Whose to say Carmelo won't look at Boston and say, "pretty good chance at a title right there."

I will never understand why anyone would be in favor of sucking for 5 years just to see what could POTENTIALLY come of draft picks. I want to watch good basketball now.

Why would we have to suck for 5 years?  If Danny could actually draft players, it wouldn't take that long.  Also, I've never liked the whole renting superstars thing.  It creates an atmosphere lacking any loyalty, because what person wants to be a pawn?  No - build from the draft, like the Celtics always have, like the Pacers did.  It's the right way to do it, and, imho, is far more rewarding.  Will it take time?  Yes, but it doesn't have to take forever.  I just hate labeling players as 'assets'.  The Celtics tradition was built on loyalty.  Plus, in the case of Kevin Love, the big question is who can he guard, especially if he has no shot blocker behind him?  Yes, we've been over Asik, but I don't get why people would want to trade for a center with no offensive talent, and who can't make free throws.  Why not get Okafor instead?  We wouldn't have to give anything, or anyone, up?  He's a UCONN guy.  I can't imagine he'd hate coming back to New England, but you never know.

I'd love them both, frankly.

And during the 2012-13 season, the last meaningful season (e.g., close to 30 mpg) they both played, Asik averaged more points, rebounds, and blocks than Okafor.

Okay.  Question then - Asik is set to make about $8.4 million dollars for 14-15.  Why not, instead of getting him, we sign Okafor and Oden instead?  They could probably both be had for less than what Asik currently makes.  Sorry, I've just always wanted Oden on the Celtics haha.

[Lucky17]

Having Rondo and Love entices other players to want to come here now. Whose to say Carmelo won't look at Boston and say, "pretty good chance at a title right there."

I will never understand why anyone would be in favor of sucking for 5 years just to see what could POTENTIALLY come of draft picks. I want to watch good basketball now.

Why would we have to suck for 5 years?  If Danny could actually draft players, it wouldn't take that long.  Also, I've never liked the whole renting superstars thing.  It creates an atmosphere lacking any loyalty, because what person wants to be a pawn?  No - build from the draft, like the Celtics always have, like the Pacers did.  It's the right way to do it, and, imho, is far more rewarding.  Will it take time?  Yes, but it doesn't have to take forever.  I just hate labeling players as 'assets'.  The Celtics tradition was built on loyalty.  Plus, in the case of Kevin Love, the big question is who can he guard, especially if he has no shot blocker behind him?  Yes, we've been over Asik, but I don't get why people would want to trade for a center with no offensive talent, and who can't make free throws.  Why not get Okafor instead?  We wouldn't have to give anything, or anyone, up?  He's a UCONN guy.  I can't imagine he'd hate coming back to New England, but you never know.

I'd love them both, frankly.

And during the 2012-13 season, the last meaningful season (e.g., close to 30 mpg) they both played, Asik averaged more points, rebounds, and blocks than Okafor.

Okay.  Question then - Asik is set to make about $8.4 million dollars for 14-15.  Why not, instead of getting him, we sign Okafor and Oden instead?  They could probably both be had for less than what Asik currently makes.  Sorry, I've just always wanted Oden on the Celtics haha.

Because the way to get Asik is via the TPE, which will evaporate if it's not used. Ainge is playing with free money here. Houston's been reported to be actively and aggressively pursuing cap space this offseason. It's quite possible that if Ainge takes Lin back as well, Asik may not cost anything more than the TPE.

Ainge could potentially acquire Okafor via the TPE, but it'd be better to get him via the MLE, or some other avenue, thereby keeping the TPE intact.

I can't put much faith in Oden's ability to play meaningful minutes for a contender, seeing as he couldn't this season.

[Mazingerz]

Because you know, Celtics