Author Topic: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc  (Read 1227 times)

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If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« on: June 16, 2014, 09:30:01 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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Here's how history changes, during the KG era ...

2008 finals, clearly, Kobe ball loses and there's no needed game 4 comeback, nor the let up in game 5, as the C's handily beat the Lakers, 4-1. This is the best bench in the NBA and Pops uses every one of them well.

2009, yes, we beat the Magic and advance but lose to the Lakers 4-1, however, with a healthy KG/Powe, it's a full 7 games against the Lakers, no definitive winner as the Lakers have moved away from Kobe ball and is now a full team effort. I still think the Lakers can pull that one out, as Ariza/Odom were playing like there's no tomorrow.

2010 finals, we beat the Lakers in 6. Sorry, but the '10 Lakers were not the same team as the prior year. We start by winning game one and then, the Phil Jackson curse is waived. Six games in total.

2011, with Miami disposed of, the C's beat the Mavs in 7.

So there you have it, 3 titles in 4 years.

And why Pops couldn't do it with the Spurs in the west is that during that time period, they were highly dependent upon a healthy Ginobili, to be a Paul Pierce during Q4, a.k.a. sixth man closer. Well, Manu was injured more often than not (plus aging) and finally, the Spurs had grown additional talent, not to have to do that, these past couple of seasons, making 'em a much more versatile team. In contrast, under Doc, the C's seldom worked on their bench, despite having players who could shave the minutes from Pierce and Garnett.




Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2014, 12:12:48 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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Ok, only a year ago, this thread would have invited the Doc Rivers supporters, to validate all those Celtics wins and losses, during the KG era.

Today, I suspect that many Doc fans have felt betrayed and no longer believe that Rivers was as great as he'd thought that he was.

Personally, I believe that Doc simply drove the starters into their NBA graves, not too distinct from K.C. Jones, when the starting five of Bird/Chief/McHale/DJ/Ainge played most of the minutes during those years with minimal bench rotation, outside of the Walton title in '86.

In contrast to the Bird era, the KG/Pierce run, always had better subs available but yet, Doc did not know how to use them, w/o losing the lead, in countless games. In the end, the strategy was something akin to the Jim O'Brien era, get the ball to Paul (or Kevin), and get out of the way.

This is why that '08 title, took so many games. Clearly, there was no team, better than the C's that year, in terms of the starters and the bench. Sure, biased refs, etc, had helped LeBron and Kobe, but let's be real, their supporting casts were a joke, in contrast to the Celtics.




Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2014, 02:21:31 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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The commas make your posts sound like poetry.

While I agree, I wouldn't dock Doc Tommy Points for what he did with us. If doing what Pop did was easy, then everyone would be the Spurs.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2014, 03:08:01 AM »

Offline Sixth Man

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Ok, only a year ago, this thread would have invited the Doc Rivers supporters, to validate all those Celtics wins and losses, during the KG era.

Today, I suspect that many Doc fans have felt betrayed and no longer believe that Rivers was as great as he'd thought that he was.

Personally, I believe that Doc simply drove the starters into their NBA graves, not too distinct from K.C. Jones, when the starting five of Bird/Chief/McHale/DJ/Ainge played most of the minutes during those years with minimal bench rotation, outside of the Walton title in '86.

In contrast to the Bird era, the KG/Pierce run, always had better subs available but yet, Doc did not know how to use them, w/o losing the lead, in countless games. In the end, the strategy was something akin to the Jim O'Brien era, get the ball to Paul (or Kevin), and get out of the way.

This is why that '08 title, took so many games. Clearly, there was no team, better than the C's that year, in terms of the starters and the bench. Sure, biased refs, etc, had helped LeBron and Kobe, but let's be real, their supporting casts were a joke, in contrast to the Celtics.

Back in the 1980's, especially prior to 1985, who was there on the Celts bench who could
have come in and made any kind of positive contribution?  Heck, back in the 1970's we used
to yell at Heinsohn for playing Big Red way too many minutes given his chronic back condition.  But who was behind him?  Finkel, Ard?

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2014, 06:47:57 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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We have a young Pops here in Brad Stevens now.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2014, 08:31:22 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
We have a young Pops here in Brad Stevens now.

He could be a Larry Brown type as well.  Larry Brown was a great teacher and Brad Stevens seems to put an emphasis on teaching.  Here is to hoping he doesn't move around like Larry Brown.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 08:35:34 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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Quote
We have a young Pops here in Brad Stevens now.

He could be a Larry Brown type as well.  Larry Brown was a great teacher and Brad Stevens seems to put an emphasis on teaching.  Here is to hoping he doesn't move around like Larry Brown.

Larry Brown led the 04 Pistons, too.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 08:55:57 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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Back in the 1980's, especially prior to 1985, who was there on the Celts bench who could
have come in and made any kind of positive contribution?  Heck, back in the 1970's we used
to yell at Heinsohn for playing Big Red way too many minutes given his chronic back condition.  But who was behind him?  Finkel, Ard?

Well that's a part of the point, KC had very little depth, during the Bird era, minus the Walton year in '86 and the 'Hop on My Back' year in 84 w/ Max.


Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 09:06:30 AM »

Offline manl_lui

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I don't deny Doc is a great coach, one of the best in the league, however, Pop is another level. He is a lot better in utilizing every last player on his roster and developing them and also probably one of the best in time management.

Had Pop been our coach instead of Doc, we would easily squeeze 2 chips instead of 1. Arguably we could also grab one more.

With him as our coach, KG may or may not be injured in that Utah game as I ALWAYS felt Doc relies on his stars TOO much (not saying Doc doesn't use rookies or whatnot).

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 09:17:13 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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The commas make your posts sound like poetry.

While I agree, I wouldn't dock Doc Tommy Points for what he did with us. If doing what Pop did was easy, then everyone would be the Spurs.

Well ... here's part of why I'm not so Doc friendly, in general.

During the '08 title run, Kobe would chastise his teammates, telling 'em to feed him the ball, and then, he could initiate the play. In other words, Kobe drives and finds the open man. In a nutshell, that was the Laker's identity.

And yet, despite that insulting motif of a one man showboat team, we'd kept losing leads and managed to win games 2 & 4, given our extreme depth (game 2 was Powe on fire & game 4 was the Posey/House defensive-offense explosion matrix) and that fact that Tib's was our defensive specialist.

And finally, the Lakers got in that game 5 win, also based upon us letting up, and trying to catch up in the end.

Thus, the Lakers didn't make it a series by Jackson's alleged coaching but by the fact that Kobe ball was working, when a better C's coach could have shutdown that jerk & his 'all about me' game in 5, much easier.

And then, in '09, the above had changed and the '09 Lakers squad was much more of a team on a mission with some serious depth and not Kobe's b*tches.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 09:19:19 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Funny that you excuse Pop's loss in 09-10 to Manu's health, but don't consider KG/Rondo/Ray/Perk being banged up for the Finals.

Manu was great that year, the fact that they had Richard Jefferson playing 34 MPG and giving them nothing was the problem.

If you're going to be Harry Turtledove and write alternate history you should probably actually look at what happened that year instead of just making something up.

Also the idea that Boston had superior benches is strange to me. That's the roster area we've always lacked the most in. 09-10 was probably the best bench year for the C's, one of the reasons they made it so far. That was hurt by the fact that KG wasn't right yet, he was a much stronger player in 10-11 despite the shorter playoff run.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 09:21:30 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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And yet, despite that insulting motif of a one man showboat team, we'd kept losing leads and managed to win games 2 & 4, given our extreme depth (game 2 was Powe on fire & game 4 was the Posey/House defensive-offense explosion matrix) and that fact that Tib's was our defensive specialist.
Extreme depth?

Powe played 1 good game, after that he got minutes and did absolutely nothing that series to the point Doc had to pull him.

Our depth in 07-08 was Posey, House, Cassel, 40 year old PJ Brown, Powe, and Glen Davis. That's not an impressive bench by any means. Posey was the only high level well rounded player among the bunch. House/Powe had one elite skill that the provided but had to be covered up for defensively and offensively when not doing their one thing. (shooting and offensive board crashing)

I understand that Pop's a great coach, but the idea that he'd suddenly turn that crew into a bunch of world beating difference makers is nuts. It took the Spurs years to create their balanced team, and they've cycled through a lot of players looking for the great group.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 09:22:51 AM »

Offline fantankerous

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The counterfactual hubris assumed in this thread is silly.

And the legend of Popovich has grown so wildly that he is now imagined to do things that he's never accomplished in his career, i.e. win three championships in four years.

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 09:27:04 AM »

Offline TitleMaster

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The title year had Posey, House, Powe, Big Baby, Brown, Cassell, & T Allen.

In contrast, Larry Bird had Thirdkill, Carlisle, Kite, Carr, Buckner, & sometimes uninjured Wedman.

The 2008 bench alone, as a team, could wipe up many of Bird's supporting cast. That's depth at every position.

The Laker's best sub was Odom and in '08, Odom did not show up. Plus, Ariza was injured. The following year, these guys made a staggering comeback, albeit for a new contract  ;)

Re: If Pops was our coach, instead of Doc
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 09:27:05 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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The counterfactual hubris assumed in this thread is silly.


the whole premise is silly.

 

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