Has LeBron surpassed Bird?

[BballTim]

This whole "LeBron is a great athlete, but Larry was a great basketball player" argument is obnoxious and perhaps a little bit offensive. As much as it pains me to admit it, LeBron is better than Bird was, and the only way his career won't end up better than Bird's is if he doesn't play again after this year.

  Why is it offensive? It's absolutely true. Again, 10 rebounds a game from a player who was arguably the best passer *and* the best shooter ever. His court vision was amazing, well beyond LeBron's, as was the speed at which he processed what was happening.

  If you saw Bird play late in his career it was fairly painful to watch. He was slowed by the double heel surgery and his back injury really hampered his play. In spite of that, at the age of 35, he was able to average 20/10/7. If LeBron's athletic ability deteriorated to that point he'd be lucky to give you half that production.

[GreenFaith1819]

This is a pretty tough question. Bird saw the game unfolding all game long where Lebron makes it go his way in spurts. Bird was actually the better scorer while Lebron is undoubtedly the better individual defender. Bird however was a great team defender. Bird was the better rebounder, passer and shooter as well.

I think if you reversed them as far as eras and teams it would also be difficult. You would have to wonder if Bird couldnt average 35 a game in today's watered down league and Lebron on the 80's Celtics would have negated some of the advantages the Lakers had as far as athleticism goes. For now I have to stay with Larry and if Lebron wins at least 4 titles then I will reconsider. Keep in mind Bird's teams won  3 titles in the best era the NBA has ever seen.

Bird was not a great defender - individually or team.  He was average. He was however the best passing forward I've ever seen, a great rebounder and in his prime, he pretty much toyed with the opposition offensively - much the way LeBron does now.   

  Bird was a very good defender, in fact he was 2nd team all-defense 3 times in a row. I think they made some small modifications to the way people were allowed to defend because of him. He wasn't the best 1v1 defender ever but he was terrific at disrupting offenses by covering the passing lanes.

Agreed.

This fact is not mentioned enough.

In perhaps the Golden Age of the NBA, Larry defended well enough to get three of these.

Under-rated defender.

[mqtcelticsfan]

This whole "LeBron is a great athlete, but Larry was a great basketball player" argument is obnoxious and perhaps a little bit offensive. As much as it pains me to admit it, LeBron is better than Bird was, and the only way his career won't end up better than Bird's is if he doesn't play again after this year.

  Why is it offensive? It's absolutely true. Again, 10 rebounds a game from a player who was arguably the best passer *and* the best shooter ever. His court vision was amazing, well beyond LeBron's, as was the speed at which he processed what was happening.

  If you saw Bird play late in his career it was fairly painful to watch. He was slowed by the double heel surgery and his back injury really hampered his play. In spite of that, at the age of 35, he was able to average 20/10/7. If LeBron's athletic ability deteriorated to that point he'd be lucky to give you half that production.

The problem is that the argument is discounting LeBron's actual basketball skills and chalking up his dominance to athleticism. Yes, he's a superior athlete to Bird. However, he's also an incredibly skilled player. That's why at this point he's on track to absolutely crush Bird's career. Unless something dramatically changes in the next 5 years, this will look like an absurd discussion, because the combination of athletic ability and basketball skill make LeBron better than Bird. It's unfair to LeBron to say that he's just a great athlete, which is what a number of people are doing, and I fear that at least some of the people in this thread mean something a little more offensive than you do.

[D.o.s.]

you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers.

Seems pretty open minded.


I would like to see the '86 Celtics play against the 2013 Heat under the official rules of the modern era, though. My guess is that the Heat bury them with wide open corner threes, even though I vastly prefer watching tape of the '86 Celtics.

I'm also interested as to why people haven't brought up the evolution of the game from a coaching standpoint, either. Especially since so many of the posts are talking about the "team game" aspect.

1 on 1, I  take LeBron > Bird.

5 on 5, that's much more interesting.

You didn't take my whole quote, so I will ask you, you think Lebron is a better passer than Larry was?
Because we were talking about assists when I said there was no way he could convince me regardless of the numbers that Lebron was better at that part of the game.
Lebron is a good passer has very good court vision but Larry is the best passing forward of all-time. Have you seen Larry play in his prime? Who do you think was the better passer?

It's not even worth discussing, really, since there's already no way I could convince you even if I did think LeBron was a better passer than Bird (which isn't a premise I'm particularly sold on), right?

[D.o.s.]

It's unfair to LeBron to say that he's just a great athlete, which is what a number of people are doing, and I fear that at least some of the people in this thread mean something a little more offensive than you do.

I don't think your suspicion is accurate, in this case, but I'm sure #33 would've won each 'Makes the most of his limited athletic ability' GM award while he was in the league. 

[loco_91]

of course, the drive to rank all time greatness is always based on a little bit of a false premise. But I think Lebron is a slightly more dominant player now than Bird was in his prime. In terms of achievement, it's likely that Lebron will surpass Bird but he hasn't yet.

[GreenFaith1819]

of course, the drive to rank all time greatness is always based on a little bit of a false premise. But I think Lebron is a slightly more dominant player now than Bird was in his prime. In terms of achievement, it's likely that Lebron will surpass Bird but he hasn't yet.

You have to define dominant, though.

Plus, LeBron didn't sprint out of the gates a winner...Larry won a Banner in just his 2nd season. There were questions about LeBron's choices, too - as far as gameplay.

He seemed to defer at times...with all the talent and physical gifts he has, he didn't - IMO - become dominant until he got to MIA - with his Big Three.

Not Larry. Larry came out of the gates swinging. I truly love Lebron's game, but the media nowadays is just too quick to define greatness...

So one day soon Lebron will surpass Bill Russell, I suppose..........

[Celtics17]

I dont think anyone is discounting Lebron's game by saying he is a great athlete. That is just the main difference between Lebron and Larry. Lebron can't shoot with Larry, that's just crazy to even compare the two. Lebron though has the speed to defend, the stength as well, and he also can outjump most players too. Those physical attributes are what make him great but that is not to say that he is not also a great basketball player without the physical skills-just not as good as Bird.

A good way to see the difference might be to watch the 86 Celtics play this year's Heat. The top three players on the Heat are more athetic then the top three on the Celtics 86 team but the end result would be a joke. There is noone on the Heat who would slow down Parish or McHale and DJ and Ainge would do much better on their guards then you might think. Walton comes off the bench and destroys the Heat as well. Lebron would sure slow down Larry's offensive game but he would also get worn down doing so.

[BballTim]

This whole "LeBron is a great athlete, but Larry was a great basketball player" argument is obnoxious and perhaps a little bit offensive. As much as it pains me to admit it, LeBron is better than Bird was, and the only way his career won't end up better than Bird's is if he doesn't play again after this year.

  Why is it offensive? It's absolutely true. Again, 10 rebounds a game from a player who was arguably the best passer *and* the best shooter ever. His court vision was amazing, well beyond LeBron's, as was the speed at which he processed what was happening.

  If you saw Bird play late in his career it was fairly painful to watch. He was slowed by the double heel surgery and his back injury really hampered his play. In spite of that, at the age of 35, he was able to average 20/10/7. If LeBron's athletic ability deteriorated to that point he'd be lucky to give you half that production.

The problem is that the argument is discounting LeBron's actual basketball skills and chalking up his dominance to athleticism. Yes, he's a superior athlete to Bird. However, he's also an incredibly skilled player. That's why at this point he's on track to absolutely crush Bird's career. Unless something dramatically changes in the next 5 years, this will look like an absurd discussion, because the combination of athletic ability and basketball skill make LeBron better than Bird. It's unfair to LeBron to say that he's just a great athlete, which is what a number of people are doing, and I fear that at least some of the people in this thread mean something a little more offensive than you do.

  LeBron is on track to have a better career than Bird but that's mainly because he'll have a much longer healthy career in the nba than Bird. As I stated earlier, there's a difference between "best career" and "best player". In terms of Bird vs LeBron, if you look at what stands out historically, Bird is possibly the most skilled player ever and LeBron is possibly the most athletic (in terms of size and athleticism) ever. Even if you think LeBron's a little better than Bird, it's clear to all that LeBron's significantly more athletic than Bird. But Bird's skill level was far enough beyond LeBron's to make up for that difference in athleticism.

[LilRip]

Larry is a legend. that said, i believe Lebron will join the ranks of Bird/Magic/Jordan when it's all said and done, but right now, he still needs to win more.

for fun, my very loose tiers/ranks are:

A. Wilt/Russell - practically mythical players
B. Bird/Magic/Jordan - in the conversation for GOAT
C. Shaq/Duncan - dominated the league and surefire, top-of-mind HOF'er

i think lebron is in "tier C"

[Celtics17]

Lebron is one of the most athletic players ever but I dont think he has anything on Wilt. Size, speed, strength, agility all go to Wilt. MJ also was a great athlete as was Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell. Lebron is big and agile and incredibly strong which is a rare combination in the NBA, at least at his level.

[Moranis]

Lebron came into the league at age 18 and will play much more healthy seasons than Larry Bird did so right from the top most people would assume Lebron because of all his stats. I will compare Larry from 83-87 and take those years over Lebrons best years.
Lebron is the better defender and of course has a stronger game to the basket then Bird.
LeBron has a good basketball IQ but Larry still edges him in that department. Bird had no where near the physical abilities that Lebron was born with yet Larry still dominated the league.

Bird was by far a superior shooter than Lebron and by far more clutch. Bird was also the better rebounder and even though Lebron is a good passer Larry still has him beat there.

I would have also loved to see how Lebron would have responded getting knocked around in a tough 80's league  for a guy his size he doesn't like contact were Bird seemed to thrive on it and get p---ed.

So don't fall in love with ESPN hype machine of Lebron, yes he is a great player but give me Larry from 83-87 over Lebron any day of the week.

If you actually look at rates, Lebron is a more efficient shooter than Larry, both in TS% and eFG% (though Larry is slightly better from three).  Lebron is also a much better passer than Larry was based on AST%.  Larry was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates).  Lebron in 50 less career games already has more points and assists than Larry did. 

If Lebron hasn't yet passed Larry on the all time list, he will very shortly.  In fact, Lebron will pass pretty much everyone when all is said and done if he stays healthy.  He is just that good.

That statement is wrong. Lebron has played in 11 seasons, Bird's first 11 he missed an entire year except for 6 games. After 11 years in both careers Lebron played in 50 more games not 50 less than Bird.

Lebron had 5,790 assist Bird had 5,489 in 50 less games. The year before Bird got hurt he was averaging 7.6 assist which would give him in 50 more games 79 more assist than James.

Lebron has a higher shooting % because his game to the basket was better than Larry's thus giving him a higher % being closer to the basket. There is no way on god's green earth you will ever convince me Lebron is a better shooter than Larry.

Larry is also know as the best passing forward in NBA history so again you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers. Again Bird played 50 less games had he not he would have had more assists then Lebron.

I was talking about career totals.

James 842 games, 23170 points, 5790 assists
Bird 897 games, 21791 points, 5695 assists

James in 55 fewer games has give or take 1400 more points and 100 more assists

And of course there are far fewer baskets in today's game then when Bird was playing, which further emphasizes that point.

Do you realize Bird wasn't the same after 88 right? Played with a bad back double spur surgery, so Lebron is obviously going to have when it's said and done better numbers than Larry because he played longer and healthier.

So to me that is an easy way to look at it, well Lebron has scored more points in his career and more assists, no kidding. Why don't we compare Lebron's 4 best years to Larry's 4 best?
Give me Bird any day of the week.  Bird lived for the tough moments last shots to win the game he is probably with Jordan the most clutch player to ever play do you not agree?
LeBron with all his stats has turtled in a number of situations, plus the fact he flops which is sad have you ever seen Larry flop like the queen?
Give me 1986 Bird to any year you want of Lebron's then lets talk about who was ever the better player. I will give you Lebron overall career because of Larry's health issues but in a 4 year snap shot Larry has the queen all day long.

well sure, but his assists per game in his last 3 years were the 3 highest 3 year stretch in his career.  His points were down, but his assists were not.  And again there were a lot more baskets when Bird was playing then now. 

[Moranis]

Just to put some numbers out there on the pace factor.

The 86 Celtics had 7312 FGA (6th in league) making 50.8% (2nd) and scoring 9359 points (8th).  The opponents for the 86 Celtics shot 7476 FGA (21st) hitting 46.1% (1st) and scoring 8587 points (3rd).

The 14 Heat had 6272 FGA (30th) making 50.1% (1st) and scoring 8380 points (12th).  The opponents for the 14 Heat shot 6475 FGA (2nd) hitting 45.7% (16th) and scoring 7990 points (5th).


The difference in made and missed baskets is massive even from 86 until today.  That totally affects total points, rebounds, and assists for Lebron, but it doesn't affect the rates, which take into account the available opportunities. 

[ACF]

James has missed 40 games thus far in his career.  I'm guessing most of those games missed were simply due to rest. Bird missed 169 games in total over 13 years, including 76 games in 1988-89.

Juicing up really does wonders, doesn't it?

[aporel#18]

Larry is a legend. that said, i believe Lebron will join the ranks of Bird/Magic/Jordan when it's all said and done, but right now, he still needs to win more.

for fun, my very loose tiers/ranks are:

A. Wilt/Russell - practically mythical players
B. Bird/Magic/Jordan - in the conversation for GOAT
C. Shaq/Duncan - dominated the league and surefire, top-of-mind HOF'er

i think lebron is in "tier C"

TP... I'd just put Kareem in tier B and Olajuwon+Mikan in tier C, but I agree completely with this.