Has LeBron surpassed Bird?

[slamtheking]

I'd take Bird 10 times out of 10 over Lebron.  not even a hesitation.

Lebron's an incredible athlete and I'll go with being the best player in the league for the past several years.  but he's not as great as Bird.  Or Magic.  or Jordan.  I've had the good fortune of seeing all their careers and all 3 of those players are better than Lebron.

Heck, Lebron didn't have much of an outside shot until the past few years.  lives off generous officiating on both offense and defense.  he doesn't make his teammates better unlike Bird (and Magic) and as for being a great individual player, he's not on Jordan's level either. 

[BballTim]

Yeah the 86 Celtics would stomp any version of LeBron's Heat.  Not the same as saying Bird's better than LeBron, though.  Which is also not the same as saying Bird accomplished more than LeBron, which is probably the fairest way of assessing this sort of thing and is tilting increasingly sharply in LeBron's favor.

  I don't think "best player" and "best career" are the same, especially when you factor in health.

[fairweatherfan]

Yeah the 86 Celtics would stomp any version of LeBron's Heat.  Not the same as saying Bird's better than LeBron, though.  Which is also not the same as saying Bird accomplished more than LeBron, which is probably the fairest way of assessing this sort of thing and is tilting increasingly sharply in LeBron's favor.

I'm not sure that accomplishments are the fairest way to settle things without evaluating the level of competition a player played against.  Those Lakers and Sixers teams that Larry lost to were legitimately great teams.  I don't think any team in today's era rises to that level other than the Heat, and the aging Spurs.

I meant individual accomplishments too, but part of my problem with evaluating teams like that is that a big part of what makes a team "great" is winning championships, and all-timers tend to snap a lot of those up. 

If Jordan never played or never got a decent team around him, the late 90s Jazz would probably be a "great" team today; because Jordan got in their way they aren't.  If OKC had beaten Miami 2 years ago they'd probably be "great" already, but instead they're not there yet.  Conversely, if we'd won Game 7 in 2010 LeBron beating us in 2011+2012 would be more highly regarded.

Extraordinary players and teams tend to make everyone else look more ordinary in comparison, which later makes them seem less extraordinary because the competition isn't as highly regarded.  And that's without factoring in the biases fans and the media are always going to have, which clouds things further.  We had a Miami fan in here a couple days ago dumping on the level of competition Russell's teams went through; naturally we Celtics fans didn't buy it for a second.  Relative to the league they played against seems cleaner to me.  But that's the fun in this kind of debate.

[Celtics17]

This is a pretty tough question. Bird saw the game unfolding all game long where Lebron makes it go his way in spurts. Bird was actually the better scorer while Lebron is undoubtedly the better individual defender. Bird however was a great team defender. Bird was the better rebounder, passer and shooter as well.

I think if you reversed them as far as eras and teams it would also be difficult. You would have to wonder if Bird couldnt average 35 a game in today's watered down league and Lebron on the 80's Celtics would have negated some of the advantages the Lakers had as far as athleticism goes. For now I have to stay with Larry and if Lebron wins at least 4 titles then I will reconsider. Keep in mind Bird's teams won  3 titles in the best era the NBA has ever seen.

[Banner18now!]

you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers.

Seems pretty open minded.


I would like to see the '86 Celtics play against the 2013 Heat under the official rules of the modern era, though. My guess is that the Heat bury them with wide open corner threes, even though I vastly prefer watching tape of the '86 Celtics.

I'm also interested as to why people haven't brought up the evolution of the game from a coaching standpoint, either. Especially since so many of the posts are talking about the "team game" aspect.

1 on 1, I  take LeBron > Bird.

5 on 5, that's much more interesting.

You didn't take my whole quote, so I will ask you, you think Lebron is a better passer than Larry was?
Because we were talking about assists when I said there was no way he could convince me regardless of the numbers that Lebron was better at that part of the game.
Lebron is a good passer has very good court vision but Larry is the best passing forward of all-time. Have you seen Larry play in his prime? Who do you think was the better passer?

[Clench123]

Can we please match stats and gold to settle this?

Personally I feel that Lebron is better than Jordan (and definitely like him as a person compared to Jordan) but I can't possibly bring myself to say he's better than Bird.

[Banner18now!]

And a question to those who side on the Queen being a better player, who would you rather have on your team with the game on the line? Who would you rather have shoot that 3? Take 2 free throws with the game on the line? I find it hard to believe anyone who is saying Lebron watched Larry in his prime.

[Banner18now!]

Can we please match stats and gold to settle this?

Personally I feel that Lebron is better than Jordan (and definitely like him as a person compared to Jordan) but I can't possibly bring myself to say he's better than Bird.

 I hated Jordan too but there is no way in hell Lebron is better than Jordan. Jordan is better at all phases of the game then Lebron.

[Eja117]

Thanks to the OP. I needed a laugh.   

Hey does anyone think Lebron has flop insurance? You know, like if he hurts himself really bad flopping he gets a large payout?  He should think about it sorta like how Keith Richards or something insured his fingers for a million bucks.

[BASS_THUMPER]

He surpassed Bird only at McDonald's commercials

sippin

[Kuberski33]

This is a pretty tough question. Bird saw the game unfolding all game long where Lebron makes it go his way in spurts. Bird was actually the better scorer while Lebron is undoubtedly the better individual defender. Bird however was a great team defender. Bird was the better rebounder, passer and shooter as well.

I think if you reversed them as far as eras and teams it would also be difficult. You would have to wonder if Bird couldnt average 35 a game in today's watered down league and Lebron on the 80's Celtics would have negated some of the advantages the Lakers had as far as athleticism goes. For now I have to stay with Larry and if Lebron wins at least 4 titles then I will reconsider. Keep in mind Bird's teams won  3 titles in the best era the NBA has ever seen.

Bird was not a great defender - individually or team.  He was average. He was however the best passing forward I've ever seen, a great rebounder and in his prime, he pretty much toyed with the opposition offensively - much the way LeBron does now.   

However there are two factors you'd need to consider: Against Bird- team defense is FAR better now than in Bird's era.  He's have to be in better shape or teams would attempt to wear him down and probably succeed to a degree.  In Bird's favor - the 3 pointer was introduced in the NBA his rookie season I believe.  So he never had the luxury of factoring the 3 into his game as he grew up.  Personally I think he would be DEVASTATING in today's game because of his ability to hit the 3.  He would be the single most valuable offensive player in the league which....is what he was when he played. 

But that all said, Lebron is an excellent individual and team defender and he's close enough to Bird in the other areas where I'd go with him.  And this is from someone who can't stand LeBron...

[mqtcelticsfan]

This whole "LeBron is a great athlete, but Larry was a great basketball player" argument is obnoxious and perhaps a little bit offensive. As much as it pains me to admit it, LeBron is better than Bird was, and the only way his career won't end up better than Bird's is if he doesn't play again after this year.

[Kuberski33]

The thing about LeBron is he's a force of nature both in transition and going to his right.  You don't stop him in either situation.  Bird had a totally different game.

[BballTim]

This is a pretty tough question. Bird saw the game unfolding all game long where Lebron makes it go his way in spurts. Bird was actually the better scorer while Lebron is undoubtedly the better individual defender. Bird however was a great team defender. Bird was the better rebounder, passer and shooter as well.

I think if you reversed them as far as eras and teams it would also be difficult. You would have to wonder if Bird couldnt average 35 a game in today's watered down league and Lebron on the 80's Celtics would have negated some of the advantages the Lakers had as far as athleticism goes. For now I have to stay with Larry and if Lebron wins at least 4 titles then I will reconsider. Keep in mind Bird's teams won  3 titles in the best era the NBA has ever seen.

Bird was not a great defender - individually or team.  He was average. He was however the best passing forward I've ever seen, a great rebounder and in his prime, he pretty much toyed with the opposition offensively - much the way LeBron does now.   

  Bird was a very good defender, in fact he was 2nd team all-defense 3 times in a row. I think they made some small modifications to the way people were allowed to defend because of him. He wasn't the best 1v1 defender ever but he was terrific at disrupting offenses by covering the passing lanes.

[staticcc]

he doesn't make his teammates better unlike Bird (and Magic)

That is crazy talk.