Author Topic: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?  (Read 40177 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2014, 03:45:08 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7221
  • Tommy Points: 1796
  • The Dude Abides
Converse vs Nike? I don't know. I'll go with Larry. Sports medicine, technology etc have VASTLY improved since Larry's days. Apples and Oranges, imo.
"An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching." - M.K. Gandhi


Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2014, 03:53:14 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7221
  • Tommy Points: 1796
  • The Dude Abides
LeBron definitely has an edge when it comes to steroids though....that jawline and receding hairline is magnificent.
"An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching." - M.K. Gandhi


Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2014, 03:53:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Lebron came into the league at age 18 and will play much more healthy seasons than Larry Bird did so right from the top most people would assume Lebron because of all his stats. I will compare Larry from 83-87 and take those years over Lebrons best years.
Lebron is the better defender and of course has a stronger game to the basket then Bird.
LeBron has a good basketball IQ but Larry still edges him in that department. Bird had no where near the physical abilities that Lebron was born with yet Larry still dominated the league.

Bird was by far a superior shooter than Lebron and by far more clutch. Bird was also the better rebounder and even though Lebron is a good passer Larry still has him beat there.

I would have also loved to see how Lebron would have responded getting knocked around in a tough 80's league  for a guy his size he doesn't like contact were Bird seemed to thrive on it and get p---ed.

So don't fall in love with ESPN hype machine of Lebron, yes he is a great player but give me Larry from 83-87 over Lebron any day of the week.
If you actually look at rates, Lebron is a more efficient shooter than Larry, both in TS% and eFG% (though Larry is slightly better from three).  Lebron is also a much better passer than Larry was based on AST%.  Larry was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates).  Lebron in 50 less career games already has more points and assists than Larry did. 

If Lebron hasn't yet passed Larry on the all time list, he will very shortly.  In fact, Lebron will pass pretty much everyone when all is said and done if he stays healthy.  He is just that good.

That statement is wrong. Lebron has played in 11 seasons, Bird's first 11 he missed an entire year except for 6 games. After 11 years in both careers Lebron played in 50 more games not 50 less than Bird.

Lebron had 5,790 assist Bird had 5,489 in 50 less games. The year before Bird got hurt he was averaging 7.6 assist which would give him in 50 more games 79 more assist than James.

Lebron has a higher shooting % because his game to the basket was better than Larry's thus giving him a higher % being closer to the basket. There is no way on god's green earth you will ever convince me Lebron is a better shooter than Larry.

Larry is also know as the best passing forward in NBA history so again you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers. Again Bird played 50 less games had he not he would have had more assists then Lebron.
I was talking about career totals.

James 842 games, 23170 points, 5790 assists
Bird 897 games, 21791 points, 5695 assists

James in 55 fewer games has give or take 1400 more points and 100 more assists

And of course there are far fewer baskets in today's game then when Bird was playing, which further emphasizes that point.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2014, 04:01:07 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42583
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
I don't think you can really anoint LeBron until he wins another championship. But Moranis's point is a good one, if you adjusted Larry Bird's totals to Pace, LeBron would've outpaced his entire career last season.

If (and I almost put 'once' here) LeBron gets another title, he'll have cemented his place as the best 3 of all time.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2014, 04:27:02 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
Statistically? Obviously he will pass Bird.  However, here is why he will never surpass any of the true greats (Jordan/Magic/Bird) in terms of actual greatness-

He plays against NO competition!

As Dave Chappelle would say "You win by default". 

Never in the history of any other major sport has there been a collusion of great players in their prime to create a superteam that would unbalance the league.  Well, maybe the Lakers getting Shaq and Kobe, and Karl Malone and Gary Payton, and Dwight Howard ;D , but none of those players really liked one another, let alone were BFF's with an agenda to rig sports.

Also, I know a lot of people would argue that Jordan benefited from a lack of competition like Lebron did, but Jordan didn't have to collude with Barkley and Olijuwon to form his superteam, he let the G.M take care of that without tampering like the CHeat do.

But, seriously the Heat have no competition. 

Lebron is the Pharell of the N.B.A.  Let me explain my analogy-

Let's say Lebron is Pharell, so Larry Bird is....Stevie Wonder. 

Pharell has talent, but can't make hit music without the aid of others powerful elements- Compilations, samples, and the big one Autotune!- To correct the fact that this world famous "singer" can't even sing!  Yet he is the top artist in the world.  Music is bad now a days, really bad, and Pharell benefits from that lack of competition.

Lebron has talent, but can't win without the aid of other powerful elements- Superstar team mates, Massive media attention, and the big one....The League handing him an excuse to every hole in his game.  Lebron can't dribble, he "never commits fouls" and everything about his game is not clutch.  He relies on the contributions of other stars to succeed.  I mean please, 38 yr old Ray Allen saves him last year and gets him a ring? What a legend!

Meanwhile, Larry Bird, (Stevie Wonder) will go down as one of the best singer/songwriters of his time, even though he played in an era where there where other great artists doing their thing.  (Competition) Also, Stevie Wonder doesn't use Autotune like Lebron/Pharell uses Officiating to fix holes in his game (Autotune). And this is against weak competition!!!!!!!!

Meaning- Bird never really got the "Jordan" or "Lebron" calls from the refs, handing him his victories.  Bird played against greater competition than either of them and worked his tail off doing so.  Unfortunately, after actually having to work for his victories and dive all over the court etc., his body eventually breaks down, and you're left with the career that is now being "surpassed" by Lebron.   ;D
this entire post is just silly.
Agreed.  The "lack of competition" thing is relatively new and pretty ridiculous.  The two teams LeBron beat in the finals were darn good.

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2014, 04:34:33 PM »

Offline aporel#18

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2332
  • Tommy Points: 170
LeBron is already the greatest ever, didn't you get the memo?  ::)

Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but comparing LeBron to Larry Bird is just silly. I don't care if LeBron wins another or another three, he'll never be half the BASKETBALL player Larry was. He's an incredible athlete, and that alone makes him one of the greatest, and he has some skills, but we're talking about Larry Legend, a basketball god. He was the MVP in a League that had Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Dr. J, Isiah, and a young Jordan amongst others, and he has a terrific basketball mind.

LeBron is a great player, incredible athlete, but he's like Jordan in that he only wins when his competition has declined because of injuries/age. Of course, he helped that process by teaming up with Bosh/Wade, but that's happened before and will happen in the future.


Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2014, 04:45:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Lebron came into the league at age 18 and will play much more healthy seasons than Larry Bird did so right from the top most people would assume Lebron because of all his stats. I will compare Larry from 83-87 and take those years over Lebrons best years.
Lebron is the better defender and of course has a stronger game to the basket then Bird.
LeBron has a good basketball IQ but Larry still edges him in that department. Bird had no where near the physical abilities that Lebron was born with yet Larry still dominated the league.

Bird was by far a superior shooter than Lebron and by far more clutch. Bird was also the better rebounder and even though Lebron is a good passer Larry still has him beat there.

I would have also loved to see how Lebron would have responded getting knocked around in a tough 80's league  for a guy his size he doesn't like contact were Bird seemed to thrive on it and get p---ed.

So don't fall in love with ESPN hype machine of Lebron, yes he is a great player but give me Larry from 83-87 over Lebron any day of the week.
If you actually look at rates, Lebron is a more efficient shooter than Larry, both in TS% and eFG% (though Larry is slightly better from three).  Lebron is also a much better passer than Larry was based on AST%.  Larry was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates).  Lebron in 50 less career games already has more points and assists than Larry did. 

If Lebron hasn't yet passed Larry on the all time list, he will very shortly.  In fact, Lebron will pass pretty much everyone when all is said and done if he stays healthy.  He is just that good.

That statement is wrong. Lebron has played in 11 seasons, Bird's first 11 he missed an entire year except for 6 games. After 11 years in both careers Lebron played in 50 more games not 50 less than Bird.

Lebron had 5,790 assist Bird had 5,489 in 50 less games. The year before Bird got hurt he was averaging 7.6 assist which would give him in 50 more games 79 more assist than James.

Lebron has a higher shooting % because his game to the basket was better than Larry's thus giving him a higher % being closer to the basket. There is no way on god's green earth you will ever convince me Lebron is a better shooter than Larry.

Larry is also know as the best passing forward in NBA history so again you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers. Again Bird played 50 less games had he not he would have had more assists then Lebron.
I was talking about career totals.

James 842 games, 23170 points, 5790 assists
Bird 897 games, 21791 points, 5695 assists

James in 55 fewer games has give or take 1400 more points and 100 more assists

And of course there are far fewer baskets in today's game then when Bird was playing, which further emphasizes that point.

   You have to consider the fact that Bird was capable of putting up better stats than he did, he was just more of a team player than most of the superstars and probably the most skilled. Image a small forward who averaged 10 rebounds a game and that wasn't one of his best skills. He was arguably the best shooter of all time and arguably the best passer of all time.

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2014, 04:45:24 PM »

Offline Banner18now!

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 889
  • Tommy Points: 81
Lebron came into the league at age 18 and will play much more healthy seasons than Larry Bird did so right from the top most people would assume Lebron because of all his stats. I will compare Larry from 83-87 and take those years over Lebrons best years.
Lebron is the better defender and of course has a stronger game to the basket then Bird.
LeBron has a good basketball IQ but Larry still edges him in that department. Bird had no where near the physical abilities that Lebron was born with yet Larry still dominated the league.

Bird was by far a superior shooter than Lebron and by far more clutch. Bird was also the better rebounder and even though Lebron is a good passer Larry still has him beat there.

I would have also loved to see how Lebron would have responded getting knocked around in a tough 80's league  for a guy his size he doesn't like contact were Bird seemed to thrive on it and get p---ed.

So don't fall in love with ESPN hype machine of Lebron, yes he is a great player but give me Larry from 83-87 over Lebron any day of the week.
If you actually look at rates, Lebron is a more efficient shooter than Larry, both in TS% and eFG% (though Larry is slightly better from three).  Lebron is also a much better passer than Larry was based on AST%.  Larry was a better rebounder (both in totals and rates).  Lebron in 50 less career games already has more points and assists than Larry did. 

If Lebron hasn't yet passed Larry on the all time list, he will very shortly.  In fact, Lebron will pass pretty much everyone when all is said and done if he stays healthy.  He is just that good.

That statement is wrong. Lebron has played in 11 seasons, Bird's first 11 he missed an entire year except for 6 games. After 11 years in both careers Lebron played in 50 more games not 50 less than Bird.

Lebron had 5,790 assist Bird had 5,489 in 50 less games. The year before Bird got hurt he was averaging 7.6 assist which would give him in 50 more games 79 more assist than James.

Lebron has a higher shooting % because his game to the basket was better than Larry's thus giving him a higher % being closer to the basket. There is no way on god's green earth you will ever convince me Lebron is a better shooter than Larry.

Larry is also know as the best passing forward in NBA history so again you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers. Again Bird played 50 less games had he not he would have had more assists then Lebron.
I was talking about career totals.

James 842 games, 23170 points, 5790 assists
Bird 897 games, 21791 points, 5695 assists

James in 55 fewer games has give or take 1400 more points and 100 more assists

And of course there are far fewer baskets in today's game then when Bird was playing, which further emphasizes that point.


Do you realize Bird wasn't the same after 88 right? Played with a bad back double spur surgery, so Lebron is obviously going to have when it's said and done better numbers than Larry because he played longer and healthier.

So to me that is an easy way to look at it, well Lebron has scored more points in his career and more assists, no kidding. Why don't we compare Lebron's 4 best years to Larry's 4 best?
Give me Bird any day of the week.  Bird lived for the tough moments last shots to win the game he is probably with Jordan the most clutch player to ever play do you not agree?
LeBron with all his stats has turtled in a number of situations, plus the fact he flops which is sad have you ever seen Larry flop like the queen?
Give me 1986 Bird to any year you want of Lebron's then lets talk about who was ever the better player. I will give you Lebron overall career because of Larry's health issues but in a 4 year snap shot Larry has the queen all day long.


Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2014, 05:01:08 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers.

Seems pretty open minded.


I would like to see the '86 Celtics play against the 2013 Heat under the official rules of the modern era, though. My guess is that the Heat bury them with wide open corner threes, even though I vastly prefer watching tape of the '86 Celtics.

I'm also interested as to why people haven't brought up the evolution of the game from a coaching standpoint, either. Especially since so many of the posts are talking about the "team game" aspect.

1 on 1, I  take LeBron > Bird.

5 on 5, that's much more interesting.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2014, 05:14:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers.

Seems pretty open minded.

  If you saw Bird play it's pretty realistic.

I would like to see the '86 Celtics play against the 2013 Heat under the official rules of the modern era, though. My guess is that the Heat bury them with wide open corner threes, even though I vastly prefer watching tape of the '86 Celtics.

I'm also interested as to why people haven't brought up the evolution of the game from a coaching standpoint, either. Especially since so many of the posts are talking about the "team game" aspect.

1 on 1, I  take LeBron > Bird.

5 on 5, that's much more interesting.

  I don't think you'd see that many wide open corner threes. I think LeBron would be a little but not a lot better than he was against Dallas, with players like Chief or McHale or Walton near the rim. And the Celts front line would overwhelm the Heat. Want to see Birdman or Bosh or Haslem or the like guard McHale and Parrish?

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2014, 05:19:18 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
LeBron is closer to Dr. J than he will ever be the Bird.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2014, 05:28:12 PM »

Offline Mr October

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Tommy Points: 247
you will never convince me Lebron is better there no matter how you try to slice the numbers.

Seems pretty open minded.

  If you saw Bird play it's pretty realistic.

I would like to see the '86 Celtics play against the 2013 Heat under the official rules of the modern era, though. My guess is that the Heat bury them with wide open corner threes, even though I vastly prefer watching tape of the '86 Celtics.

I'm also interested as to why people haven't brought up the evolution of the game from a coaching standpoint, either. Especially since so many of the posts are talking about the "team game" aspect.

1 on 1, I  take LeBron > Bird.

5 on 5, that's much more interesting.

  I don't think you'd see that many wide open corner threes. I think LeBron would be a little but not a lot better than he was against Dallas, with players like Chief or McHale or Walton near the rim. And the Celts front line would overwhelm the Heat. Want to see Birdman or Bosh or Haslem or the like guard McHale and Parrish?

Yeah i will take the best Celtic or Laker team from the 80s against almost any team.

McHale or Jabbar alone would average an easy 30 against Miami.

In a time machine matchup i would like to see how those 80s team would do against the Russell Celtics, Jordan Bulls, and the Shaq Lakers.

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2014, 05:29:53 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Sure, but what rules are we working with? That's more illustrative of my point -- there's a lot more to this Player from era X is better than player from era Y idea than is usually accounted for.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2014, 05:35:14 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42583
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Sure, but what rules are we working with? That's more illustrative of my point -- there's a lot more to this Player from era X is better than player from era Y idea than is usually accounted for.

Great point. They couldn't bully Lebron, and his length and athleticism would bother Bird. They also couldn't bully Wade on the perimeter, assuming his knees didn't flare up.

But McHale would feast on whomever the Heat sent his way, same with Parish.

86 Celtics take this IMO, although Lebron would put up his usual numbers, and I'd bet Bird doesn't have his best series.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Has LeBron surpassed Bird?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2014, 05:40:25 PM »

Offline Mr October

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Tommy Points: 247
Sure, but what rules are we working with? That's more illustrative of my point -- there's a lot more to this Player from era X is better than player from era Y idea than is usually accounted for.

When talking different eras, i would give each team time to adjust to the different rules, and to adjust to the different comforts/medical knowledge/ media attention. That being said there are so many factors when comparing eras, that it becomes an unwinnable argument.

I think the 80s celtics or lakers would still dominate today's era. Miami still cant stop the interior post play of the C's and L's. All the teams' scorers would benefit from the no hand check rules.

I firmly believe that great players can adjust to new rules and still be great.