Author Topic: 2014 NFL Draft  (Read 19730 times)

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Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2014, 09:56:41 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Pats just drafted a guy (DE) I never heard of from a school I didn't know existed. Coulda had Michael Sam.

The fix is in.  It's embarrassing

Or you know Sam might not be that good.  I really doubt the Pats would refrain from drafting a guy if they thought he was the BPA.
yeah. maybe the guy from Concordia was better than the SEC Defensive POY. Anyone know when the last time the SEC DPOY or OPOY for that matter wasn't drafted till the 7th round or after? Maybe Sam just isn't injury prone enough for the Pats

I'm the furthest thing from an NFL talent scout.  I just know that Sam has been projected in the mid-round to undrafted range all along.
yup....and when was the last time that happened to an SEC DPOY? 1892?
The SEC did not give out a DPOY award until 2003.  That year the immortal Chad Lavalais won the award.  He went on to be drafted in the 5th round and played 30 games in the NFL.  Sam is a courageous player, a great story and I hope he has a great career but in reality he is a borderline NFL talent and is being evaluated as such.  Keep in mind that he was not regarded as being the best player at his position on his own team.
Right and since then every single one was drafted in the first round (most of them in the top 20, if not top 10), with the exception of the 2nd rounder in 2005. Odd coincidence.
Yeah, but look at all the Heisman winners and where they get drafted.  College football awards have nothing to do with NFL draft position.  Nothing at all. 

Before the SEC separated the offensive and defensive awards they just had a player of the year and that stellar group includes 4th round pick Rudi Johnson, 2 time SEC player of the year and 4th round pick Danny Wuerffel, undrafted and never played a game in the NFL Jay Barker, 2 time SEC player of the year and undrafted Shane Matthews, and that just goes back to 1990.  Also in that list are huge flame outs like David Pollack and Tim Couch.

Again, college awards have nothing to do with NFL draft status.  After the combine, no one had Michael Sam as anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick.  His measurables were awful.  That isn't to say he won't have a very long solid career, he might, but the reason he was a 7th round pick has nothing to do with anything other than his physical measurements (he is small and was slow and weak at the combine).
So do you think if Clowney had shown up at the combine and done exactly what Sam did he would have been a 7th rounder? Because I don't.

Awards do have something to do with draft position. Yeah there are some Heismans that go undrafted like Jason White. There are also some that go #1.

But generally the ones that get the awards are the best players. That's why they get the awards. SEC DPOYs have never been drafted lower than 33rd, with the exception of one guy drafted 142nd, which was STILL 107 spots higher.

He was also a unanimous All-American. Where do you suppose the average (non kicker/punter/long snapper) unanimous All-American gets picked?
but Clowney couldn't show up at the combine and do what Sam did, because Clowney is significantly bigger than Sam (though if he showed up with poor measurements he certainly isn't the first pick in the draft).  Sam is short, slow, and weak.  If Johnny Manziel was a couple of inches taller and 15 pounds bigger he is the #1 pick in the draft without question, instead he dropped to #22 and some people still think that was too high.  Size matters especially in the NFL more so than any of the major sports because it is such a physically imposing game.  Sam plays at a position where he is going to need the size, strength and speed that he just doesn't have.  That isn't to say he might not overcome the physical limitations as it happens a fair amount, but the odds are stacked against him.

Again college awards mean nothing, Jason White was a Heisman trophy winner and a unanimous All American in 2004 and wasn't drafted.  In fact he had a few tryouts but never even made a NFL team. 

Jackson Jeffcoat a consensus All American this past year went undrafted.  Why not claim some giant conspiracy with him?  David Yankey, like Sam, was a 2013 unanimous all american (and who unlike Sam was also an all american in 2012) was a fifth round pick this past year.  Where is the outcry for him.  Or Cyril Richardson, also a 5th round pick.  How about Ka'Deem Carey and Andre Williams, both 4th round picks? 

The simple truth is Michael Sam was drafted where his physical attributes dictated he should be drafted.  NFL teams did not avoid drafting him because he is gay, they avoided drafting him because he is small, slow, and weak.  It really is that simple.
So your theory is that Sam was Doug Flutied?

That's an interesting theory, but when you look at his measurements vs the measurements of other players drafted before him (like his teammate Kony) they are very comparable, which is actually pretty good when you take into account the whole banquet circuit that award winners have to do. Also he has a better body of work in a better league than the vast majority of players drafted before him.

While it's common for players with less than stellar measurements to slide in the draft it's also common for them to rise (Tebow?). 

Jeffcoat and Yankey?   I think teams made mistakes on those, but maybe the big reason there's no outcry is because there's nothing about them that people are particularly phobic about. 

I'm not saying the league had some secret midnight meeting where they all got together and vowed to pass on him till the 7th round. I'm just saying he got screwed for the wrong reasons.

If his name were Manning? Then where does he get drafted?
Kony Ealy had significantly better combine numbers than Michael Sam.  The only thing they were close on was the 40 yard dash, but at the Missouri pro day, Ealy was significantly faster than Sam in that.  Ealy had much better measurables (not to mention is taller and heavier), which is why he was a late second round pick and why Sam was a 7th rounder.  Ealy was 5 inches better on the vertical, 5 more reps on the bench, a second faster on the cone, a longer broad jump, etc.  Then you combine that with his 12 pounds and 2 inch height advantage it isn't hard to figure out why Ealy went significantly higher than Sam.
I'm going by just a couple magazines here.  I have no problem with Ealy being drafted earlier. They both played well and Ealy does better running around with cones and jumping broad jumps, which will serve him great on the football field if he ever has to outbroad jump someone or tackle a cone.  I mean Tom Brady had pretty horrid measurements in this regard.

My issue is more that Ealy was drafted right where he was supposed to be, but Sam was predicted as a 4th or even 5th rounder, then almost slips out entirely.

Also I have no problem with stating Ealy looks better in every regard, but let's say we compare Sam to other comparable first rounders, like say David Pollack or whatnot. Or various 2nd and 3rd rounders. You can't tell me that Sam's numbers are just that much worse than lots of these players.

6ft 2, 260, and a 4.74 are perfectly fine numbers for a football player at his positions. Most of these later round picks have to make their bones at special teams anyway at first.

Hey here's a question. Does he have two snapped ACLs, like a certain first rounder?

I just do not agree that Sam's total body of work as a prospect on the field and in the measurements somehow puts him in the 7th round.

Andre Williams and Yankey aren't as good of comparisons because it's not that hard to find a competent guard or running back. But a DE/OLB? Pretty different.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2014, 10:09:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Pats just drafted a guy (DE) I never heard of from a school I didn't know existed. Coulda had Michael Sam.

The fix is in.  It's embarrassing

Or you know Sam might not be that good.  I really doubt the Pats would refrain from drafting a guy if they thought he was the BPA.
yeah. maybe the guy from Concordia was better than the SEC Defensive POY. Anyone know when the last time the SEC DPOY or OPOY for that matter wasn't drafted till the 7th round or after? Maybe Sam just isn't injury prone enough for the Pats

I'm the furthest thing from an NFL talent scout.  I just know that Sam has been projected in the mid-round to undrafted range all along.
yup....and when was the last time that happened to an SEC DPOY? 1892?
The SEC did not give out a DPOY award until 2003.  That year the immortal Chad Lavalais won the award.  He went on to be drafted in the 5th round and played 30 games in the NFL.  Sam is a courageous player, a great story and I hope he has a great career but in reality he is a borderline NFL talent and is being evaluated as such.  Keep in mind that he was not regarded as being the best player at his position on his own team.
Right and since then every single one was drafted in the first round (most of them in the top 20, if not top 10), with the exception of the 2nd rounder in 2005. Odd coincidence.
Yeah, but look at all the Heisman winners and where they get drafted.  College football awards have nothing to do with NFL draft position.  Nothing at all. 

Before the SEC separated the offensive and defensive awards they just had a player of the year and that stellar group includes 4th round pick Rudi Johnson, 2 time SEC player of the year and 4th round pick Danny Wuerffel, undrafted and never played a game in the NFL Jay Barker, 2 time SEC player of the year and undrafted Shane Matthews, and that just goes back to 1990.  Also in that list are huge flame outs like David Pollack and Tim Couch.

Again, college awards have nothing to do with NFL draft status.  After the combine, no one had Michael Sam as anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick.  His measurables were awful.  That isn't to say he won't have a very long solid career, he might, but the reason he was a 7th round pick has nothing to do with anything other than his physical measurements (he is small and was slow and weak at the combine).
So do you think if Clowney had shown up at the combine and done exactly what Sam did he would have been a 7th rounder? Because I don't.

Awards do have something to do with draft position. Yeah there are some Heismans that go undrafted like Jason White. There are also some that go #1.

But generally the ones that get the awards are the best players. That's why they get the awards. SEC DPOYs have never been drafted lower than 33rd, with the exception of one guy drafted 142nd, which was STILL 107 spots higher.

He was also a unanimous All-American. Where do you suppose the average (non kicker/punter/long snapper) unanimous All-American gets picked?
but Clowney couldn't show up at the combine and do what Sam did, because Clowney is significantly bigger than Sam (though if he showed up with poor measurements he certainly isn't the first pick in the draft).  Sam is short, slow, and weak.  If Johnny Manziel was a couple of inches taller and 15 pounds bigger he is the #1 pick in the draft without question, instead he dropped to #22 and some people still think that was too high.  Size matters especially in the NFL more so than any of the major sports because it is such a physically imposing game.  Sam plays at a position where he is going to need the size, strength and speed that he just doesn't have.  That isn't to say he might not overcome the physical limitations as it happens a fair amount, but the odds are stacked against him.

Again college awards mean nothing, Jason White was a Heisman trophy winner and a unanimous All American in 2004 and wasn't drafted.  In fact he had a few tryouts but never even made a NFL team. 

Jackson Jeffcoat a consensus All American this past year went undrafted.  Why not claim some giant conspiracy with him?  David Yankey, like Sam, was a 2013 unanimous all american (and who unlike Sam was also an all american in 2012) was a fifth round pick this past year.  Where is the outcry for him.  Or Cyril Richardson, also a 5th round pick.  How about Ka'Deem Carey and Andre Williams, both 4th round picks? 

The simple truth is Michael Sam was drafted where his physical attributes dictated he should be drafted.  NFL teams did not avoid drafting him because he is gay, they avoided drafting him because he is small, slow, and weak.  It really is that simple.
So your theory is that Sam was Doug Flutied?

That's an interesting theory, but when you look at his measurements vs the measurements of other players drafted before him (like his teammate Kony) they are very comparable, which is actually pretty good when you take into account the whole banquet circuit that award winners have to do. Also he has a better body of work in a better league than the vast majority of players drafted before him.

While it's common for players with less than stellar measurements to slide in the draft it's also common for them to rise (Tebow?). 

Jeffcoat and Yankey?   I think teams made mistakes on those, but maybe the big reason there's no outcry is because there's nothing about them that people are particularly phobic about. 

I'm not saying the league had some secret midnight meeting where they all got together and vowed to pass on him till the 7th round. I'm just saying he got screwed for the wrong reasons.

If his name were Manning? Then where does he get drafted?
Kony Ealy had significantly better combine numbers than Michael Sam.  The only thing they were close on was the 40 yard dash, but at the Missouri pro day, Ealy was significantly faster than Sam in that.  Ealy had much better measurables (not to mention is taller and heavier), which is why he was a late second round pick and why Sam was a 7th rounder.  Ealy was 5 inches better on the vertical, 5 more reps on the bench, a second faster on the cone, a longer broad jump, etc.  Then you combine that with his 12 pounds and 2 inch height advantage it isn't hard to figure out why Ealy went significantly higher than Sam.
I'm going by just a couple magazines here.  I have no problem with Ealy being drafted earlier. They both played well and Ealy does better running around with cones and jumping broad jumps, which will serve him great on the football field if he ever has to outbroad jump someone or tackle a cone.  I mean Tom Brady had pretty horrid measurements in this regard.

My issue is more that Ealy was drafted right where he was supposed to be, but Sam was predicted as a 4th or even 5th rounder, then almost slips out entirely.

Also I have no problem with stating Ealy looks better in every regard, but let's say we compare Sam to other comparable first rounders, like say David Pollack or whatnot. Or various 2nd and 3rd rounders. You can't tell me that Sam's numbers are just that much worse than lots of these players.

6ft 2, 260, and a 4.74 are perfectly fine numbers for a football player at his positions. Most of these later round picks have to make their bones at special teams anyway at first.

Hey here's a question. Does he have two snapped ACLs, like a certain first rounder?

I just do not agree that Sam's total body of work as a prospect on the field and in the measurements somehow puts him in the 7th round.

Andre Williams and Yankey aren't as good of comparisons because it's not that hard to find a competent guard or running back. But a DE/OLB? Pretty different.
Sam was projected as a 4th or 5th rounder before the combine.  After the combine he was projected as a 6th or 7th rounder with some people thinking he wouldn't be drafted at all.  Sam had a horrible combine, that is what killed his draft status.  He increased some of his numbers at the Missouri pro day, but hurt his hamstring and couldn't even run the second 40 that was planned.  So while the number boost helped the fact that he got hurt didn't.

Michael Sam combine numbers 6'2", 261 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.91, Bench press 17 reps, vertical 25.5 inches, broad jump 114 inches, cone 7.8 seconds.

Since you mentioned David Pollack here are his numbers.  6'2", 265 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.75, bench press 25 reps, vertical 37 inches, broach jump 210 inches, cone 6.87 seconds.

Similar height and weight, but Pollack was significantly faster, stronger, and more explosive.  Those things matter.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
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Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2014, 10:14:38 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Pats just drafted a guy (DE) I never heard of from a school I didn't know existed. Coulda had Michael Sam.

The fix is in.  It's embarrassing

Or you know Sam might not be that good.  I really doubt the Pats would refrain from drafting a guy if they thought he was the BPA.
yeah. maybe the guy from Concordia was better than the SEC Defensive POY. Anyone know when the last time the SEC DPOY or OPOY for that matter wasn't drafted till the 7th round or after? Maybe Sam just isn't injury prone enough for the Pats

I'm the furthest thing from an NFL talent scout.  I just know that Sam has been projected in the mid-round to undrafted range all along.
yup....and when was the last time that happened to an SEC DPOY? 1892?
The SEC did not give out a DPOY award until 2003.  That year the immortal Chad Lavalais won the award.  He went on to be drafted in the 5th round and played 30 games in the NFL.  Sam is a courageous player, a great story and I hope he has a great career but in reality he is a borderline NFL talent and is being evaluated as such.  Keep in mind that he was not regarded as being the best player at his position on his own team.
Right and since then every single one was drafted in the first round (most of them in the top 20, if not top 10), with the exception of the 2nd rounder in 2005. Odd coincidence.
Yeah, but look at all the Heisman winners and where they get drafted.  College football awards have nothing to do with NFL draft position.  Nothing at all. 

Before the SEC separated the offensive and defensive awards they just had a player of the year and that stellar group includes 4th round pick Rudi Johnson, 2 time SEC player of the year and 4th round pick Danny Wuerffel, undrafted and never played a game in the NFL Jay Barker, 2 time SEC player of the year and undrafted Shane Matthews, and that just goes back to 1990.  Also in that list are huge flame outs like David Pollack and Tim Couch.

Again, college awards have nothing to do with NFL draft status.  After the combine, no one had Michael Sam as anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick.  His measurables were awful.  That isn't to say he won't have a very long solid career, he might, but the reason he was a 7th round pick has nothing to do with anything other than his physical measurements (he is small and was slow and weak at the combine).
So do you think if Clowney had shown up at the combine and done exactly what Sam did he would have been a 7th rounder? Because I don't.

Awards do have something to do with draft position. Yeah there are some Heismans that go undrafted like Jason White. There are also some that go #1.

But generally the ones that get the awards are the best players. That's why they get the awards. SEC DPOYs have never been drafted lower than 33rd, with the exception of one guy drafted 142nd, which was STILL 107 spots higher.

He was also a unanimous All-American. Where do you suppose the average (non kicker/punter/long snapper) unanimous All-American gets picked?
but Clowney couldn't show up at the combine and do what Sam did, because Clowney is significantly bigger than Sam (though if he showed up with poor measurements he certainly isn't the first pick in the draft).  Sam is short, slow, and weak.  If Johnny Manziel was a couple of inches taller and 15 pounds bigger he is the #1 pick in the draft without question, instead he dropped to #22 and some people still think that was too high.  Size matters especially in the NFL more so than any of the major sports because it is such a physically imposing game.  Sam plays at a position where he is going to need the size, strength and speed that he just doesn't have.  That isn't to say he might not overcome the physical limitations as it happens a fair amount, but the odds are stacked against him.

Again college awards mean nothing, Jason White was a Heisman trophy winner and a unanimous All American in 2004 and wasn't drafted.  In fact he had a few tryouts but never even made a NFL team. 

Jackson Jeffcoat a consensus All American this past year went undrafted.  Why not claim some giant conspiracy with him?  David Yankey, like Sam, was a 2013 unanimous all american (and who unlike Sam was also an all american in 2012) was a fifth round pick this past year.  Where is the outcry for him.  Or Cyril Richardson, also a 5th round pick.  How about Ka'Deem Carey and Andre Williams, both 4th round picks? 

The simple truth is Michael Sam was drafted where his physical attributes dictated he should be drafted.  NFL teams did not avoid drafting him because he is gay, they avoided drafting him because he is small, slow, and weak.  It really is that simple.
So your theory is that Sam was Doug Flutied?

That's an interesting theory, but when you look at his measurements vs the measurements of other players drafted before him (like his teammate Kony) they are very comparable, which is actually pretty good when you take into account the whole banquet circuit that award winners have to do. Also he has a better body of work in a better league than the vast majority of players drafted before him.

While it's common for players with less than stellar measurements to slide in the draft it's also common for them to rise (Tebow?). 

Jeffcoat and Yankey?   I think teams made mistakes on those, but maybe the big reason there's no outcry is because there's nothing about them that people are particularly phobic about. 

I'm not saying the league had some secret midnight meeting where they all got together and vowed to pass on him till the 7th round. I'm just saying he got screwed for the wrong reasons.

If his name were Manning? Then where does he get drafted?
Kony Ealy had significantly better combine numbers than Michael Sam.  The only thing they were close on was the 40 yard dash, but at the Missouri pro day, Ealy was significantly faster than Sam in that.  Ealy had much better measurables (not to mention is taller and heavier), which is why he was a late second round pick and why Sam was a 7th rounder.  Ealy was 5 inches better on the vertical, 5 more reps on the bench, a second faster on the cone, a longer broad jump, etc.  Then you combine that with his 12 pounds and 2 inch height advantage it isn't hard to figure out why Ealy went significantly higher than Sam.
I'm going by just a couple magazines here.  I have no problem with Ealy being drafted earlier. They both played well and Ealy does better running around with cones and jumping broad jumps, which will serve him great on the football field if he ever has to outbroad jump someone or tackle a cone.  I mean Tom Brady had pretty horrid measurements in this regard.

My issue is more that Ealy was drafted right where he was supposed to be, but Sam was predicted as a 4th or even 5th rounder, then almost slips out entirely.

Also I have no problem with stating Ealy looks better in every regard, but let's say we compare Sam to other comparable first rounders, like say David Pollack or whatnot. Or various 2nd and 3rd rounders. You can't tell me that Sam's numbers are just that much worse than lots of these players.

6ft 2, 260, and a 4.74 are perfectly fine numbers for a football player at his positions. Most of these later round picks have to make their bones at special teams anyway at first.

Hey here's a question. Does he have two snapped ACLs, like a certain first rounder?

I just do not agree that Sam's total body of work as a prospect on the field and in the measurements somehow puts him in the 7th round.

Andre Williams and Yankey aren't as good of comparisons because it's not that hard to find a competent guard or running back. But a DE/OLB? Pretty different.
Sam was projected as a 4th or 5th rounder before the combine.  After the combine he was projected as a 6th or 7th rounder with some people thinking he wouldn't be drafted at all.  Sam had a horrible combine, that is what killed his draft status.  He increased some of his numbers at the Missouri pro day, but hurt his hamstring and couldn't even run the second 40 that was planned.  So while the number boost helped the fact that he got hurt didn't.

Michael Sam combine numbers 6'2", 261 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.91, Bench press 17 reps, vertical 25.5 inches, broad jump 114 inches, cone 7.8 seconds.

Since you mentioned David Pollack here are his numbers.  6'2", 265 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.75, bench press 25 reps, vertical 37 inches, broach jump 210 inches, cone 6.87 seconds.

Similar height and weight, but Pollack was significantly faster, stronger, and more explosive.  Those things matter.
But then for all his greatness Pollack promptly got hurt and barely played.

Was there some actual problem with Sam's actual play? In the SEC? Did he tend to look like one of the best players on one of the best teams in the single best conference? How did that project? Did that project to 7th round or a little higher?

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2014, 10:28:58 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Pats just drafted a guy (DE) I never heard of from a school I didn't know existed. Coulda had Michael Sam.

The fix is in.  It's embarrassing

Or you know Sam might not be that good.  I really doubt the Pats would refrain from drafting a guy if they thought he was the BPA.
yeah. maybe the guy from Concordia was better than the SEC Defensive POY. Anyone know when the last time the SEC DPOY or OPOY for that matter wasn't drafted till the 7th round or after? Maybe Sam just isn't injury prone enough for the Pats

I'm the furthest thing from an NFL talent scout.  I just know that Sam has been projected in the mid-round to undrafted range all along.
yup....and when was the last time that happened to an SEC DPOY? 1892?
The SEC did not give out a DPOY award until 2003.  That year the immortal Chad Lavalais won the award.  He went on to be drafted in the 5th round and played 30 games in the NFL.  Sam is a courageous player, a great story and I hope he has a great career but in reality he is a borderline NFL talent and is being evaluated as such.  Keep in mind that he was not regarded as being the best player at his position on his own team.
Right and since then every single one was drafted in the first round (most of them in the top 20, if not top 10), with the exception of the 2nd rounder in 2005. Odd coincidence.
Yeah, but look at all the Heisman winners and where they get drafted.  College football awards have nothing to do with NFL draft position.  Nothing at all. 

Before the SEC separated the offensive and defensive awards they just had a player of the year and that stellar group includes 4th round pick Rudi Johnson, 2 time SEC player of the year and 4th round pick Danny Wuerffel, undrafted and never played a game in the NFL Jay Barker, 2 time SEC player of the year and undrafted Shane Matthews, and that just goes back to 1990.  Also in that list are huge flame outs like David Pollack and Tim Couch.

Again, college awards have nothing to do with NFL draft status.  After the combine, no one had Michael Sam as anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick.  His measurables were awful.  That isn't to say he won't have a very long solid career, he might, but the reason he was a 7th round pick has nothing to do with anything other than his physical measurements (he is small and was slow and weak at the combine).
So do you think if Clowney had shown up at the combine and done exactly what Sam did he would have been a 7th rounder? Because I don't.

Awards do have something to do with draft position. Yeah there are some Heismans that go undrafted like Jason White. There are also some that go #1.

But generally the ones that get the awards are the best players. That's why they get the awards. SEC DPOYs have never been drafted lower than 33rd, with the exception of one guy drafted 142nd, which was STILL 107 spots higher.

He was also a unanimous All-American. Where do you suppose the average (non kicker/punter/long snapper) unanimous All-American gets picked?
but Clowney couldn't show up at the combine and do what Sam did, because Clowney is significantly bigger than Sam (though if he showed up with poor measurements he certainly isn't the first pick in the draft).  Sam is short, slow, and weak.  If Johnny Manziel was a couple of inches taller and 15 pounds bigger he is the #1 pick in the draft without question, instead he dropped to #22 and some people still think that was too high.  Size matters especially in the NFL more so than any of the major sports because it is such a physically imposing game.  Sam plays at a position where he is going to need the size, strength and speed that he just doesn't have.  That isn't to say he might not overcome the physical limitations as it happens a fair amount, but the odds are stacked against him.

Again college awards mean nothing, Jason White was a Heisman trophy winner and a unanimous All American in 2004 and wasn't drafted.  In fact he had a few tryouts but never even made a NFL team. 

Jackson Jeffcoat a consensus All American this past year went undrafted.  Why not claim some giant conspiracy with him?  David Yankey, like Sam, was a 2013 unanimous all american (and who unlike Sam was also an all american in 2012) was a fifth round pick this past year.  Where is the outcry for him.  Or Cyril Richardson, also a 5th round pick.  How about Ka'Deem Carey and Andre Williams, both 4th round picks? 

The simple truth is Michael Sam was drafted where his physical attributes dictated he should be drafted.  NFL teams did not avoid drafting him because he is gay, they avoided drafting him because he is small, slow, and weak.  It really is that simple.
So your theory is that Sam was Doug Flutied?

That's an interesting theory, but when you look at his measurements vs the measurements of other players drafted before him (like his teammate Kony) they are very comparable, which is actually pretty good when you take into account the whole banquet circuit that award winners have to do. Also he has a better body of work in a better league than the vast majority of players drafted before him.

While it's common for players with less than stellar measurements to slide in the draft it's also common for them to rise (Tebow?). 

Jeffcoat and Yankey?   I think teams made mistakes on those, but maybe the big reason there's no outcry is because there's nothing about them that people are particularly phobic about. 

I'm not saying the league had some secret midnight meeting where they all got together and vowed to pass on him till the 7th round. I'm just saying he got screwed for the wrong reasons.

If his name were Manning? Then where does he get drafted?
Kony Ealy had significantly better combine numbers than Michael Sam.  The only thing they were close on was the 40 yard dash, but at the Missouri pro day, Ealy was significantly faster than Sam in that.  Ealy had much better measurables (not to mention is taller and heavier), which is why he was a late second round pick and why Sam was a 7th rounder.  Ealy was 5 inches better on the vertical, 5 more reps on the bench, a second faster on the cone, a longer broad jump, etc.  Then you combine that with his 12 pounds and 2 inch height advantage it isn't hard to figure out why Ealy went significantly higher than Sam.
I'm going by just a couple magazines here.  I have no problem with Ealy being drafted earlier. They both played well and Ealy does better running around with cones and jumping broad jumps, which will serve him great on the football field if he ever has to outbroad jump someone or tackle a cone.  I mean Tom Brady had pretty horrid measurements in this regard.

My issue is more that Ealy was drafted right where he was supposed to be, but Sam was predicted as a 4th or even 5th rounder, then almost slips out entirely.

Also I have no problem with stating Ealy looks better in every regard, but let's say we compare Sam to other comparable first rounders, like say David Pollack or whatnot. Or various 2nd and 3rd rounders. You can't tell me that Sam's numbers are just that much worse than lots of these players.

6ft 2, 260, and a 4.74 are perfectly fine numbers for a football player at his positions. Most of these later round picks have to make their bones at special teams anyway at first.

Hey here's a question. Does he have two snapped ACLs, like a certain first rounder?

I just do not agree that Sam's total body of work as a prospect on the field and in the measurements somehow puts him in the 7th round.

Andre Williams and Yankey aren't as good of comparisons because it's not that hard to find a competent guard or running back. But a DE/OLB? Pretty different.
Sam was projected as a 4th or 5th rounder before the combine.  After the combine he was projected as a 6th or 7th rounder with some people thinking he wouldn't be drafted at all.  Sam had a horrible combine, that is what killed his draft status.  He increased some of his numbers at the Missouri pro day, but hurt his hamstring and couldn't even run the second 40 that was planned.  So while the number boost helped the fact that he got hurt didn't.

Michael Sam combine numbers 6'2", 261 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.91, Bench press 17 reps, vertical 25.5 inches, broad jump 114 inches, cone 7.8 seconds.

Since you mentioned David Pollack here are his numbers.  6'2", 265 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.75, bench press 25 reps, vertical 37 inches, broach jump 210 inches, cone 6.87 seconds.

Similar height and weight, but Pollack was significantly faster, stronger, and more explosive.  Those things matter.
But then for all his greatness Pollack promptly got hurt and barely played.

Was there some actual problem with Sam's actual play? In the SEC? Did he tend to look like one of the best players on one of the best teams in the single best conference? How did that project? Did that project to 7th round or a little higher?

I know you're smart enough to realize that a college athlete's prospects in the NFL hinges on several factors outside of just actual play at the college football level.  Size measurables being another way to analyze and project.

When the guys at the next level are bigger & faster than what you're playing against at the college level, pro scouts tend to look heavily at combine measurables... when determining how well that prospect will perform at the next level. Actual play certainly helps but its not the end-all, be-all.

Combine measurables certainly not foolproof to determine NFL success (see Mike Mamula) but it can certainly help. 

Almost everything I read or saw after the combine had Sam as a 3rd day draft pick to undrafted.  I think he went just about where he belonged. 

If you're hinting at some sort of larger conspiracy theory, I don't know what to tell you besides I'm not buying it.  Maybe a team or two shied away from the idea of a possible media circus but I don't think 32 teams and a league were consipiring to drop the kid 5 rounds or whatever, either.


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Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2014, 10:47:33 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Pats just drafted a guy (DE) I never heard of from a school I didn't know existed. Coulda had Michael Sam.

The fix is in.  It's embarrassing

Or you know Sam might not be that good.  I really doubt the Pats would refrain from drafting a guy if they thought he was the BPA.
yeah. maybe the guy from Concordia was better than the SEC Defensive POY. Anyone know when the last time the SEC DPOY or OPOY for that matter wasn't drafted till the 7th round or after? Maybe Sam just isn't injury prone enough for the Pats

I'm the furthest thing from an NFL talent scout.  I just know that Sam has been projected in the mid-round to undrafted range all along.
yup....and when was the last time that happened to an SEC DPOY? 1892?
The SEC did not give out a DPOY award until 2003.  That year the immortal Chad Lavalais won the award.  He went on to be drafted in the 5th round and played 30 games in the NFL.  Sam is a courageous player, a great story and I hope he has a great career but in reality he is a borderline NFL talent and is being evaluated as such.  Keep in mind that he was not regarded as being the best player at his position on his own team.
Right and since then every single one was drafted in the first round (most of them in the top 20, if not top 10), with the exception of the 2nd rounder in 2005. Odd coincidence.
Yeah, but look at all the Heisman winners and where they get drafted.  College football awards have nothing to do with NFL draft position.  Nothing at all. 

Before the SEC separated the offensive and defensive awards they just had a player of the year and that stellar group includes 4th round pick Rudi Johnson, 2 time SEC player of the year and 4th round pick Danny Wuerffel, undrafted and never played a game in the NFL Jay Barker, 2 time SEC player of the year and undrafted Shane Matthews, and that just goes back to 1990.  Also in that list are huge flame outs like David Pollack and Tim Couch.

Again, college awards have nothing to do with NFL draft status.  After the combine, no one had Michael Sam as anything more than a 6th or 7th round pick.  His measurables were awful.  That isn't to say he won't have a very long solid career, he might, but the reason he was a 7th round pick has nothing to do with anything other than his physical measurements (he is small and was slow and weak at the combine).
So do you think if Clowney had shown up at the combine and done exactly what Sam did he would have been a 7th rounder? Because I don't.

Awards do have something to do with draft position. Yeah there are some Heismans that go undrafted like Jason White. There are also some that go #1.

But generally the ones that get the awards are the best players. That's why they get the awards. SEC DPOYs have never been drafted lower than 33rd, with the exception of one guy drafted 142nd, which was STILL 107 spots higher.

He was also a unanimous All-American. Where do you suppose the average (non kicker/punter/long snapper) unanimous All-American gets picked?
but Clowney couldn't show up at the combine and do what Sam did, because Clowney is significantly bigger than Sam (though if he showed up with poor measurements he certainly isn't the first pick in the draft).  Sam is short, slow, and weak.  If Johnny Manziel was a couple of inches taller and 15 pounds bigger he is the #1 pick in the draft without question, instead he dropped to #22 and some people still think that was too high.  Size matters especially in the NFL more so than any of the major sports because it is such a physically imposing game.  Sam plays at a position where he is going to need the size, strength and speed that he just doesn't have.  That isn't to say he might not overcome the physical limitations as it happens a fair amount, but the odds are stacked against him.

Again college awards mean nothing, Jason White was a Heisman trophy winner and a unanimous All American in 2004 and wasn't drafted.  In fact he had a few tryouts but never even made a NFL team. 

Jackson Jeffcoat a consensus All American this past year went undrafted.  Why not claim some giant conspiracy with him?  David Yankey, like Sam, was a 2013 unanimous all american (and who unlike Sam was also an all american in 2012) was a fifth round pick this past year.  Where is the outcry for him.  Or Cyril Richardson, also a 5th round pick.  How about Ka'Deem Carey and Andre Williams, both 4th round picks? 

The simple truth is Michael Sam was drafted where his physical attributes dictated he should be drafted.  NFL teams did not avoid drafting him because he is gay, they avoided drafting him because he is small, slow, and weak.  It really is that simple.
So your theory is that Sam was Doug Flutied?

That's an interesting theory, but when you look at his measurements vs the measurements of other players drafted before him (like his teammate Kony) they are very comparable, which is actually pretty good when you take into account the whole banquet circuit that award winners have to do. Also he has a better body of work in a better league than the vast majority of players drafted before him.

While it's common for players with less than stellar measurements to slide in the draft it's also common for them to rise (Tebow?). 

Jeffcoat and Yankey?   I think teams made mistakes on those, but maybe the big reason there's no outcry is because there's nothing about them that people are particularly phobic about. 

I'm not saying the league had some secret midnight meeting where they all got together and vowed to pass on him till the 7th round. I'm just saying he got screwed for the wrong reasons.

If his name were Manning? Then where does he get drafted?
Kony Ealy had significantly better combine numbers than Michael Sam.  The only thing they were close on was the 40 yard dash, but at the Missouri pro day, Ealy was significantly faster than Sam in that.  Ealy had much better measurables (not to mention is taller and heavier), which is why he was a late second round pick and why Sam was a 7th rounder.  Ealy was 5 inches better on the vertical, 5 more reps on the bench, a second faster on the cone, a longer broad jump, etc.  Then you combine that with his 12 pounds and 2 inch height advantage it isn't hard to figure out why Ealy went significantly higher than Sam.
I'm going by just a couple magazines here.  I have no problem with Ealy being drafted earlier. They both played well and Ealy does better running around with cones and jumping broad jumps, which will serve him great on the football field if he ever has to outbroad jump someone or tackle a cone.  I mean Tom Brady had pretty horrid measurements in this regard.

My issue is more that Ealy was drafted right where he was supposed to be, but Sam was predicted as a 4th or even 5th rounder, then almost slips out entirely.

Also I have no problem with stating Ealy looks better in every regard, but let's say we compare Sam to other comparable first rounders, like say David Pollack or whatnot. Or various 2nd and 3rd rounders. You can't tell me that Sam's numbers are just that much worse than lots of these players.

6ft 2, 260, and a 4.74 are perfectly fine numbers for a football player at his positions. Most of these later round picks have to make their bones at special teams anyway at first.

Hey here's a question. Does he have two snapped ACLs, like a certain first rounder?

I just do not agree that Sam's total body of work as a prospect on the field and in the measurements somehow puts him in the 7th round.

Andre Williams and Yankey aren't as good of comparisons because it's not that hard to find a competent guard or running back. But a DE/OLB? Pretty different.
Sam was projected as a 4th or 5th rounder before the combine.  After the combine he was projected as a 6th or 7th rounder with some people thinking he wouldn't be drafted at all.  Sam had a horrible combine, that is what killed his draft status.  He increased some of his numbers at the Missouri pro day, but hurt his hamstring and couldn't even run the second 40 that was planned.  So while the number boost helped the fact that he got hurt didn't.

Michael Sam combine numbers 6'2", 261 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.91, Bench press 17 reps, vertical 25.5 inches, broad jump 114 inches, cone 7.8 seconds.

Since you mentioned David Pollack here are his numbers.  6'2", 265 pounds, 40 yard dash 4.75, bench press 25 reps, vertical 37 inches, broach jump 210 inches, cone 6.87 seconds.

Similar height and weight, but Pollack was significantly faster, stronger, and more explosive.  Those things matter.
But then for all his greatness Pollack promptly got hurt and barely played.

Was there some actual problem with Sam's actual play? In the SEC? Did he tend to look like one of the best players on one of the best teams in the single best conference? How did that project? Did that project to 7th round or a little higher?

I know you're smart enough to realize that a college athlete's prospects in the NFL hinges on several factors outside of just actual play at the college football level.  Size measurables being another way to analyze and project.

When the guys at the next level are bigger & faster than what you're playing against at the college level, pro scouts tend to look heavily at combine measurables... when determining how well that prospect will perform at the next level. Actual play certainly helps but its not the end-all, be-all.

Combine measurables certainly not foolproof to determine NFL success (see Mike Mamula) but it can certainly help. 

Almost everything I read or saw after the combine had Sam as a 3rd day draft pick to undrafted.  I think he went just about where he belonged. 

If you're hinting at some sort of larger conspiracy theory, I don't know what to tell you besides I'm not buying it.  Maybe a team or two shied away from the idea of a possible media circus but I don't think 32 teams and a league were consipiring to drop the kid 5 rounds or whatever, either.
That's not what I'm saying.  I've been watching the draft a long time and what I'm saying is that players with comparable bodies of work on the field and in the combine (actually with less comparable bodies of work) are routinely drafted higher than where he was.

There is no way on Earth Clowney shows up there and gets dropped to the 7th round because he put up 17 reps instead of 22 or because he jumps a couple feet less than he was supposed to.

I'm not sure why Sam was even in the 3rd day discussion to begin with. Prospects from the SEC that win the kind of recognition he got routinely don't even work out at the combine.

If he's a bust he's a bust. People can point to his numbers and say "Well he was drafted at the right spot and it was pretty predictable that he'd bust", but there will be quite a lot of players picked above him that will be busts too. I mean you can take the guy that runs fast or you can take the guy that played better.

I don't think his combo of numbers, health, intangibles, and play make him a 7th rounder in comparison to a lot of other players.  If you want to say his combo of attributes points to the 7th round that's fine, but then you gotta admit a lot of other players were overdrafted and reached for.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2014, 10:50:06 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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I don't think his combo of numbers, health, intangibles, and play make him a 7th rounder in comparison to a lot of other players. If you want to say his combo of attributes points to the 7th round that's fine, but then you gotta admit a lot of other players were overdrafted and reached for.

Sure.  But that happens in every draft. 


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Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2014, 10:53:23 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I'm curious about this reality show that Sam is doing.  If it's only related to his personal life, and won't attempt to involve cameras in the locker room, on the practice field, etc., then I think it's just a poor decision.  If he is attempting to turn training camp into a circus, then I think he will be (and deserves to be) quickly cut.


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Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2014, 11:01:57 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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I'm curious about this reality show that Sam is doing.  If it's only related to his personal life, and won't attempt to involve cameras in the locker room, on the practice field, etc., then I think it's just a poor decision.  If he is attempting to turn training camp into a circus, then I think he will be (and deserves to be) quickly cut.

Such a dumb idea.  He's going to be fighting for his life for a roster spot and he does this?  Not the brightest thing.  A.J. McCarron can attest to that and Sam should've seen what was going on there and reconsidered (supposedly this had been under wraps for awhile).

Didn't Sam want the focus to be on football too & just be seen as a football player?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 11:07:54 AM by Donoghus »


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Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2014, 11:07:20 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I'm curious about this reality show that Sam is doing.  If it's only related to his personal life, and won't attempt to involve cameras in the locker room, on the practice field, etc., then I think it's just a poor decision.  If he is attempting to turn training camp into a circus, then I think he will be (and deserves to be) quickly cut.

Such a dumb idea.  He's going to be fighting for his life for a roster spot and he does this?  Not the brightest thing.  A.J. McCarron can attest to that and Sam should've seen what was going on there and reconsidered (supposedly this had been under wraps for awhile).

Did Sam want the focus to be on football too & just be seen as a football player?
agreed.  I think it depends a bit on the kind of show, but still.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2014, 11:10:22 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I don't think his combo of numbers, health, intangibles, and play make him a 7th rounder in comparison to a lot of other players. If you want to say his combo of attributes points to the 7th round that's fine, but then you gotta admit a lot of other players were overdrafted and reached for.

Sure.  But that happens in every draft.
I have to disagree. A player with his total body of work doesn't usually slide to the 7th round while players with a lesser body of work get drafted above him.  It happens every draft to SOMEONE. Usually someone people aren't phobic about or that aren't SEC DPOY and unanimous all-americans.

On some level this will partly play itself out later. If he bombs like Tebow then he was drafted in the right spot. If he excels....well then that will be interesting.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2014, 12:43:25 PM »

Offline Eja117

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If people think Sam played and measured out like a 7th rounder then that's one interpretation I guess.

But to look at this from a different perspective....If Clowney comes out as gay 15 days before the draft does he still get picked #1? How about Blake Bortles? Is he still #3 or are Aaron Murray and AJ McCarron looking a little better all of a sudden?

How about Jimmy Garopalo? If he comes out a couple weeks before the draft, then right after the draft says he's making a documentary is he still a Patriot?


I'm not sure.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2014, 01:57:21 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I believe some teams passed on him in the 7th (or even 6th) because teams do not want to bring in the fringe talent (which is what those late round picks tend to be.  Some find a niche.  Some end up better then expected) that causes a distraction.  (not because of his interaction with his teammates but because of the over coverage from the media)


He is bringing a media circus with him.  Not his fault, but few NFL teams like that and only really accept it from their top stars.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2014, 02:15:02 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I'll definitely be interested to see what kind of circus he brings. I suppose Jackie Robinson was a circus but he was also really really good. Plus he's technically not really breaking a barrier per se.

Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2014, 02:17:29 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I'll definitely be interested to see what kind of circus he brings. I suppose Jackie Robinson was a circus but he was also really really good. Plus he's technically not really breaking a barrier per se.

I'm guessing less than Tebowmania.   

The Jason Collins thing died down relatively quick and there wasn't much of a circus, if any, once he started playing.   

The Sam stuff will play in the early days of training camp.  Maybe his first regular season game if he makes the team.  I don't think it'll be some ongoing circus, though.


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Re: 2014 NFL Draft
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2014, 02:22:23 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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If people think Sam played and measured out like a 7th rounder then that's one interpretation I guess.

But to look at this from a different perspective....If Clowney comes out as gay 15 days before the draft does he still get picked #1? How about Blake Bortles? Is he still #3 or are Aaron Murray and AJ McCarron looking a little better all of a sudden?

How about Jimmy Garopalo? If he comes out a couple weeks before the draft, then right after the draft says he's making a documentary is he still a Patriot?


I'm not sure.

It would almost undoubtedly affect their draft stock in a negative way -- the same way it certainly added some negative value to Sam's draft stock.
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