Author Topic: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense  (Read 11260 times)

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Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2014, 06:35:53 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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Having skimmed the title and the accompanying photograph, I can safely say that you're right, Rondo does pound the ball too much.
The OP does not agree with your assessment. Rondo's a great player.

Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2014, 06:37:25 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Having skimmed the title and the accompanying photograph, I can safely say that you're right, Rondo does pound the ball too much.
The OP does not agree with your assessment. Rondo's a great player.
Was referring to mmmmm's article

I also think everyone should read this, if they haven't already:
http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-read-anymore
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 06:42:29 PM by D.o.s. »
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Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2014, 06:44:34 PM »

Offline RRNoLookPass

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I don't have a lot of time to flesh this out so here's a brief outline of a though I've been kickin around.
Stevens envisions an offense that involves a lot of ball movement with no dominant playmaker.
(I'm far from a rondo hater but this involves moving on from the general)
Summer plan is to fill our team with good passers at as many positions as possible...

If available draft exum, draft slo mo with 17 or move up for him (17 + future 2nd)
Sign and trade for Stevenson
We would build around good passers with
Exum at 1 Stevenson at 2, slo mo at 3 oly at 4

Trade for defensive center (asik for arguments sake)
D anchored by Stevenson and asik
Use rondo, green, sully as chips to bring in center, Stevenson future talent...
Thoughts?

Coach Brad Stevens runs what is called a Motion Offense, not "Stevens ball movement offense" as you called it. There seems to be a lot of confusion amongst many of the posters on Celticsblog as to how a motion offense is run.

Here is some background info on the motion offense: The origin of the motion offense is usually credited to coach Henry Iba from Oklahoma State. From there, it was further developed & popularized by Coach Bob Knight at Indiana University, who utilized screening as a key part of the offense.

Now here is a brief definition of what a motion offense really is: 

The motion offense is a flexible offense that utilizes player movement, correct floor spacing, passing and cutting, and setting screens. Rather than running set plays (which can also be run in the motion offense), players move within a basic set of rules. This allows for greater flexibility than just running set plays, and will usually be effective against any kind of defense, whether man-to-man, zone or "junk" defenses. Players can move freely to open areas on the court. Once the basic concepts are learned, special patterns or plays can be designed by the coach to take advantage of his team's offensive strengths.

So if you read what a motion offense is truly based upon, and what it utilizes, you will realize that it is not simply all about ball movement. I think a lot of people read the word "motion", and then jump to the conclusion that a motion offense is strictly about ball movement.

After reading the actual definition of the motion offense, I think most people will understand that the "we need to move on from Rondo in order to utilize Coach Stevens' motion offense" argument is a rather groundless point of view. There is no rule that you can not have a dominant playmaker within a motion offense.
In fact, I think Stevens recognizes that Rondo is an excellent floor general for his motion offense, as Rondo is great at utilizing screens, recognizing his teammates' movements off the ball, and finding open cutters. Rondo is clearly one of the best playmakers in the league, and one of the best point guards at creating/implementing plays on the fly, rather than running set plays. He has shown in the past that he is superb at playing effectively against a variety of different defenses, which is also a big part of the motion offense.

And just a few more comments regarding the original post-- I think the summer plan, per Danny Ainge, is about finding a solid rim protector first & foremost. (Rather than finding good passers)...The C's already have a top tier passer in Rondo, and a creative back up PG/passer in Pressey, whom is on a very cheap contract if they decide to bring him back.

I also don't see the Pacers having much interest in a S&T involving Stevenson. Teams will most likely have to overpay to pry him away from the Pacers, and I don't see the C's being willing to do that, but you never know I guess.

Thank you for posting that clarification and I concur 100%.

I did a pretty detailed article on this very topic last week on the front page of CB:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/4/17/5625374/pounding-the-ball

Caution - it is long, there are numbers, and some of the best stuff is in the comments.

The short version is that I can see no reason to think that Rondo is not a good fit for Steven's motion offense.

Thanks mmmmm, and I could not agree you with more.

Your article was excellent by the way. It was great to see a post on 'pounding the ball' that was based on facts for once, rather than personal opinion. I actually read that article last wk when you first posted it, and it grabbed my attention from start to finish...It's rare that I have the incentive to read an article that long from top to bottom, but you had a ton of great info in it.

Tp for such an in-depth breakdown of the whole 'pounding the ball' topic, and all the time you probably spent on the writing & research involved.

I knew someone else had defined the motion offense recently, but I couldn't remember where I had seen it. ...Looks like we both found some of the same info on coach's clipboard...that site has a great breakdown of the motion offense. I wish more people would read your article, or research what a motion offense is before making their own conclusions about it.

And I too, see no reason to believe that Rondo is not a good fit for Stevens' motion offense.



Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2014, 07:21:28 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Isn't Stephenson a free agent though?  I feel he would be an upgrade over AB because he can pass the ball better and can shoot the outside ball well while also being 3 inches taller.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1990575-what-is-lance-stephenson-worth-to-indiana-pacers

S&T AB plus a future pick for Stephenson?  He clearly doesn't get along with Evan Turner, so one of them has to go for the Pacers.

Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2014, 09:56:23 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Having skimmed the title and the accompanying photograph, I can safely say that you're right, Rondo does pound the ball too much.
The OP does not agree with your assessment. Rondo's a great player.
Was referring to mmmmm's article

I also think everyone should read this, if they haven't already:
http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-read-anymore
i wanted to read it, but was not allowed due to the title.  ;)
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Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2014, 11:29:38 PM »

Offline RRNoLookPass

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Isn't Stephenson a free agent though?  I feel he would be an upgrade over AB because he can pass the ball better and can shoot the outside ball well while also being 3 inches taller.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1990575-what-is-lance-stephenson-worth-to-indiana-pacers

S&T AB plus a future pick for Stephenson?  He clearly doesn't get along with Evan Turner, so one of them has to go for the Pacers.

Yes, Stephenson is a free agent this year, but he stated several times this season that his preference is to remain with the Pacers.  The Pacers have also indicated that they will look to re-sign him in the offseason. The only way I see the Pacers letting Stephenson go is for financial reasons, but I doubt Ainge would be willing to offer him any more than the Pacers will.

Stephenson is a very good rebounder and a solid passer for his position, but he is certainly no upgrade over AB when it comes to 3p shooting. Stephenson, in his 4th season in the league this yr, shot a career high 35.2% from 3p range.
Bradley hit the 3p shot at 39.5% this year. That marks the second time in 4yrs that Bradley has shot a very respectable percentage from behind the arc, as he also made 40.7% of his 3p attempts in his sophomore season.

Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2014, 11:50:54 PM »

Offline Sixth Man

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I don't have a lot of time to flesh this out so here's a brief outline of a though I've been kickin around.
Stevens envisions an offense that involves a lot of ball movement with no dominant playmaker.
(I'm far from a rondo hater but this involves moving on from the general)
Summer plan is to fill our team with good passers at as many positions as possible...

If available draft exum, draft slo mo with 17 or move up for him (17 + future 2nd)
Sign and trade for Stevenson
We would build around good passers with
Exum at 1 Stevenson at 2, slo mo at 3 oly at 4

Trade for defensive center (asik for arguments sake)
D anchored by Stevenson and asik
Use rondo, green, sully as chips to bring in center, Stevenson future talent...
Thoughts?

Coach Brad Stevens runs what is called a Motion Offense, not "Stevens ball movement offense" as you called it. There seems to be a lot of confusion amongst many of the posters on Celticsblog as to how a motion offense is run.

Here is some background info on the motion offense: The origin of the motion offense is usually credited to coach Henry Iba from Oklahoma State. From there, it was further developed & popularized by Coach Bob Knight at Indiana University, who utilized screening as a key part of the offense.

Now here is a brief definition of what a motion offense really is: 

The motion offense is a flexible offense that utilizes player movement, correct floor spacing, passing and cutting, and setting screens. Rather than running set plays (which can also be run in the motion offense), players move within a basic set of rules. This allows for greater flexibility than just running set plays, and will usually be effective against any kind of defense, whether man-to-man, zone or "junk" defenses. Players can move freely to open areas on the court. Once the basic concepts are learned, special patterns or plays can be designed by the coach to take advantage of his team's offensive strengths.

So if you read what a motion offense is truly based upon, and what it utilizes, you will realize that it is not simply all about ball movement. I think a lot of people read the word "motion", and then jump to the conclusion that a motion offense is strictly about ball movement.

After reading the actual definition of the motion offense, I think most people will understand that the "we need to move on from Rondo in order to utilize Coach Stevens' motion offense" argument is a rather groundless point of view. There is no rule that you can not have a dominant playmaker within a motion offense.
In fact, I think Stevens recognizes that Rondo is an excellent floor general for his motion offense, as Rondo is great at utilizing screens, recognizing his teammates' movements off the ball, and finding open cutters. Rondo is clearly one of the best playmakers in the league, and one of the best point guards at creating/implementing plays on the fly, rather than running set plays. He has shown in the past that he is superb at playing effectively against a variety of different defenses, which is also a big part of the motion offense.

And just a few more comments regarding the original post-- I think the summer plan, per Danny Ainge, is about finding a solid rim protector first & foremost. (Rather than finding good passers)...The C's already have a top tier passer in Rondo, and a creative back up PG/passer in Pressey, whom is on a very cheap contract if they decide to bring him back.

I also don't see the Pacers having much interest in a S&T involving Stevenson. Teams will most likely have to overpay to pry him away from the Pacers, and I don't see the C's being willing to do that, but you never know I guess.

Thank you for posting that clarification and I concur 100%.

I did a pretty detailed article on this very topic last week on the front page of CB:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/4/17/5625374/pounding-the-ball

Caution - it is long, there are numbers, and some of the best stuff is in the comments.

The short version is that I can see no reason to think that Rondo is not a good fit for Steven's motion offense.

I read your article, and thank you for your efforts.  However, I didn't see what I would assume would be the most important stat re Rondo, namely the average number of seconds he takes to advance the ball to half-court from the beginning of the possession.  Seconds per touch incorporates all his touches, not the first one alone, which is what I would be interested in...

Also, the average number of seconds before making his first pass each possession would be quite useful...

Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2014, 11:52:44 PM »

Offline Sixth Man

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That said, all other things being equal, I think the best players for Stevens will be guys who can pass, fill multiple roles on offense, cover multiple positions on defense, and hit the outside shot at a reliable rate.
This applies to every team no matter who the coach is.

Yeah, I guess that's true. But it's especially true in an offense that's all about constant movement and frequent passing, with an emphasis on high efficiency shots.

As opposed to an offense that is about infrequent movement, not much passing and an emphasis on low efficiency shots?

Congratulations, you win today's "Pointlessly Snarky" award... ;) :)

Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2014, 10:20:30 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Thank you for posting that clarification and I concur 100%.

I did a pretty detailed article on this very topic last week on the front page of CB:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/4/17/5625374/pounding-the-ball

Caution - it is long, there are numbers, and some of the best stuff is in the comments.

The short version is that I can see no reason to think that Rondo is not a good fit for Steven's motion offense.

I read your article, and thank you for your efforts.  However, I didn't see what I would assume would be the most important stat re Rondo, namely the average number of seconds he takes to advance the ball to half-court from the beginning of the possession.  Seconds per touch incorporates all his touches, not the first one alone, which is what I would be interested in...

Also, the average number of seconds before making his first pass each possession would be quite useful...

This question was addressed in the comments.  Basically, your concern boils down to:  Is the average time of possession per touch watered down by a ton of other touches that are very short in duration?

While this is a valid concern, in reality that is based on a misconception about how the flow of touches works out.  The misconception is that a player (Rondo, Parker, whomever) is touching the ball multiple times during a possession.

The reality is, if you do the math, is that they average just a little more than one touch per possession. 

Tony Parker, for example, averaged 76 touches per game.  He was on the floor for about 57 possesions per game.  Thus, he averaged 1.33 touches per possession.

On the vast majority of their possessions then, the 'bring up the ball and initiate the play touch' is the only one they may have on that possession.   On some smaller share of the possessions, they may get an additional touch, if the ball comes back to them and on a very, very small share they might get a third touch.  I.E. Tony is getting an extra touch maybe every third possession or so.

I spent some time watching videos of the various point guards mentioned in the article, watching for this and that's pretty much the pattern.  On the vast majority of possessions the point guard would get one touch, during which some 5-ish seconds would pass as the offense would setup or go in motion or whatever and then the ball would leave their hands.   Only occasionally would it come back for an additional touch.

Obviously, there is some variance to all this, but this was the general pattern and this suggests that, in reality, the initial touch is likely the largest statistical weight in the average.
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Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 10:23:15 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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^needz moar pickshures.

But TP for the legwork -- data mining is an effort, even when it's fun.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2014, 10:50:39 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Are there any centers available later in the draft whose skill set includes being a good passer out of the high post?
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Re: Drafting for Stevens ball movement offense
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2014, 12:45:52 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Having skimmed the title and the accompanying photograph, I can safely say that you're right, Rondo does pound the ball too much.
The OP does not agree with your assessment. Rondo's a great player.
Was referring to mmmmm's article

I also think everyone should read this, if they haven't already:
http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-read-anymore

Really a thought provoking piece.  Highly recommended.
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