Author Topic: Say OKC gets booted , would they trade Westbrook for Rondo then ? and would you?  (Read 60993 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
So uh let's see now. Rondo has averaged about 10 or 11 assists a game for four years straight now. The highest Westbrook ever averaged was 8.2 his third year in the league.  Yep. No way Rondo could be a help to a developing player on that one.

Rondo has been on the first or second All Defensive team four times and Westbrook never has. Hmmm. Maybe playing with a good defender could help a young developing player somehow.

Rondo has played almost twice as many playoff games.  I wonder if that could be a help on some level.

Rondo makes 13mill next year. Westbrook makes 15.7. 

Pardon my ignorance. Give me Rondo all day every day. You can have Jeff Green.

Online jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Things seem to be getting pretty heated.

What seems clear to me is that Westbrook is clearly the better scorer and Rondo is clearly the better playmaker. Arguments can be made for the rest of their games. I guess what the OP is saying is would a change in philosophy benefit OKC? Durant obviously shined while Westbrook was out this season, but that didn't necessarily make them a better team. As others have said, OKC may need another scorer to spread the floor to make such a deal, but it is one that I could see them making if things turn sour for them these playoffs.

I am definitely in the camp that sees them as 'comparable' on the grand scale. For people to say that Westbrook (and his less than desirable %s) is a much better player than Rondo really need to take a closer look at exactly what it takes to win games.

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
So what you are saying is that Westbrook is the better passer and defender, and makes his teammates better, and is the better overall player especially when you take into account how much more he gets paid?

Ok. I completely disagree on all accounts.

Now say what you believe.

Say "I believe Westbrook is the better passer" and then say "I believe Westbrook is the better defender".

Go ahead. Say it. I could use a good laugh.

I have no idea what you're going on about as I've never said anything about how Westbrook is better or worse than Rondo, just that your comment about Rondo being better for those two players because of your silly bias against Westbrook is nonsense. Because it is.

BballTim: firstly, I didn't say anything like that. I'm an OKC fan; I watch them regularly. Forgive me if I'm choosing to disregard the opinions of those who don't even watch the team enough to know that
Lamb and Jones have barely shared the court with Westbrook.

Unless you're going to cite actual, in-game examples of how Westbrook is actively impeding their development, that's unfounded nonsense. When people make the silly arguments about how Westbrook is holding OKC back, they at least refer to how he often doesn't defer to Durant when he probably should. This is useless, lazy speculation.

Jones clearly hasn't been negatively impacted by seeing Westbrook play defense considering… gasp, his very role on the team is as a utility defender who can guard positions 2-4. Lamb clearly hasn't been negatively impacted by Westbrook being a "ball hog" considering… gasp, when Brooks actually played him earlier in the season, he was often tasked with facilitating the offense for the bench since Jackson was starting in place of Westbrook. And both guys performed commendably in their designated roles.

If anyone actually bothers to watch OKC regularly, they'll know that the issues commonly cited with the team stem around the notion that Westbrook and Durant aren't a good fit. Not that Westbrook doesn't do enough to set up his other teammates.
Ok, so let's get this straight. OKC played better (or just as well) without Westbrook.  When Westbrook got back Lamb clearly went into a nose dive.  You won't say Westbrook is the better passer or defender. The Celtics clearly missed Rondo big time in the past during the playoffs. Rondo has played twice as many playoff games.

But it's ignorant of me to suggest Rondo would be better for Lamb and Jones (and the rest of OKC). Gotcha.

Because playing with a better passer, better defender, and more experienced player is usually bad for young players.

Is that the theory here? Or that it doesn't matter at all?

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
So uh let's see now. Rondo has averaged about 10 or 11 assists a game for four years straight now. The highest Westbrook ever averaged was 8.2 his third year in the league.  Yep. No way Rondo could be a help to a developing player on that one.

Rondo has been on the first or second All Defensive team four times and Westbrook never has. Hmmm. Maybe playing with a good defender could help a young developing player somehow.

Rondo has played almost twice as many playoff games.  I wonder if that could be a help on some level.

Rondo makes 13mill next year. Westbrook makes 15.7. 

Pardon my ignorance. Give me Rondo all day every day. You can have Jeff Green.
Do you think that Rondo will continue to make all defensive teams now that he's not playing with Kevin Garnett?

Do you think that Westbrook will have played in enough playoff games by his 8th season in the league to make their playoff experience more comparable?

Do you think Rondo will continue to make less than Westbrook when he signs his next contract?

Why do you insist on having assists be the only benchmark of helping other players develop?
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline Endless Paradise

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2853
  • Tommy Points: 182
Am I speaking another language or something? No, Lamb didn't go into a nosedive when Westbrook returned. Lamb didn't go into anything because Brooks doesn't play him. What is so hard to understand about this? Lamb is not in the rotation at all - how in the world is that unclear? And no, he didn't drop out of the rotation because of Westbrook; he dropped out because they signed Caron Butler, which you would know if, again, you bothered to actually learn about the Thunder before waxing poetic about how Westbrook is killing the team.

As for your notion about OKC supposedly playing better without Westbrook: the Celtics had a better record without Rondo last year, so clearly there's no reason for OKC to even want him, right? Rondo is obviously the weak link here. ::)

Oh yeah, and the Celtics missed Rondo in the playoffs? So somehow that line of thinking doesn't apply to OKC, who were eliminated in 5 games by the Grizzlies without Westbrook. Gotcha.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:27:05 AM by Endless Paradise »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6069
  • Tommy Points: 336
So what you are saying is that Westbrook is the better passer and defender, and makes his teammates better, and is the better overall player especially when you take into account how much more he gets paid?

Ok. I completely disagree on all accounts.

Now say what you believe.

Say "I believe Westbrook is the better passer" and then say "I believe Westbrook is the better defender".

Go ahead. Say it. I could use a good laugh.

I have no idea what you're going on about as I've never said anything about how Westbrook is better or worse than Rondo, just that your comment about Rondo being better for those two players because of your silly bias against Westbrook is nonsense. Because it is.

BballTim: firstly, I didn't say anything like that. I'm an OKC fan; I watch them regularly. Forgive me if I'm choosing to disregard the opinions of those who don't even watch the team enough to know that
Lamb and Jones have barely shared the court with Westbrook.

Unless you're going to cite actual, in-game examples of how Westbrook is actively impeding their development, that's unfounded nonsense. When people make the silly arguments about how Westbrook is holding OKC back, they at least refer to how he often doesn't defer to Durant when he probably should. This is useless, lazy speculation.

Jones clearly hasn't been negatively impacted by seeing Westbrook play defense considering… gasp, his very role on the team is as a utility defender who can guard positions 2-4. Lamb clearly hasn't been negatively impacted by Westbrook being a "ball hog" considering… gasp, when Brooks actually played him earlier in the season, he was often tasked with facilitating the offense for the bench since Jackson was starting in place of Westbrook. And both guys performed commendably in their designated roles.

If anyone actually bothers to watch OKC regularly, they'll know that the issues commonly cited with the team stem around the notion that Westbrook and Durant aren't a good fit. Not that Westbrook doesn't do enough to set up his other teammates.

As someone out in the Midwest who watches a lot of Thunder - because I like good basketball. and the Celtics haven't played any in a good while - you're on point completely in your evaluations. I enjoy your posts and I hope you continue posting.

Don't fall victim to the belligerance and the goading with this Rondo thing. You will find extensive efforts here to conflate his abilities and his performance, complete with statistical, uh, distortions that would do Karl Rove or James Carville proud.

A lot of people here - a lot - are Rondo fans first, second and third, and since the NBA markets individuals instead of its great teams - something I see as an insult to the game itself - I get that. It's fascinating to me how the greatest franchise in NBA history becomes an afterthought in these point guard arguments. I often wonder if some of these folks would even be here if Rondo gets traded, and as a longtime coach who finds the team element of this great game beautiful and intoxicating, nothing makes me feel more out of place here than the politicization of Rondo's ability.

TP to you. I hope you continue posting.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:46:51 AM by CoachBo »
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
I'll cosign the first half of CoachBo's post, for sure.

that would be the bit about EP's spot on assessments of the Thunder.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:53:33 AM by D.o.s. »
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
So uh let's see now. Rondo has averaged about 10 or 11 assists a game for four years straight now. The highest Westbrook ever averaged was 8.2 his third year in the league.  Yep. No way Rondo could be a help to a developing player on that one.

Rondo has been on the first or second All Defensive team four times and Westbrook never has. Hmmm. Maybe playing with a good defender could help a young developing player somehow.

Rondo has played almost twice as many playoff games.  I wonder if that could be a help on some level.

Rondo makes 13mill next year. Westbrook makes 15.7. 

Pardon my ignorance. Give me Rondo all day every day. You can have Jeff Green.
Do you think that Rondo will continue to make all defensive teams now that he's not playing with Kevin Garnett?

Do you think that Westbrook will have played in enough playoff games by his 8th season in the league to make their playoff experience more comparable?

Do you think Rondo will continue to make less than Westbrook when he signs his next contract?

Why do you insist on having assists be the only benchmark of helping other players develop?
Yes I think Rondo will keep making all defensive teams or will at least continue to be a good defensive player. It will be harder for him to gamble.

Yes, Westbrook will catch up a bit

Yes I think Rondo will make less than Westbrook. If he doesn't what does that tell you?

If other players were improving in any phase of the game maybe I could agree that Westbrook's presence is helping the young players, but none of them are developing. I don't lay that all at Westbrook's feet, but Rondo has played with many young players that developed well. Westbrook not as much.  Rondo makes players around him better. Westbrook it's a lot harder to say.

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
Am I speaking another language or something? No, Lamb didn't go into a nosedive when Westbrook returned. Lamb didn't go into anything because Brooks doesn't play him. What is so hard to understand about this? Lamb is not in the rotation at all - how in the world is that unclear? And no, he didn't drop out of the rotation because of Westbrook; he dropped out because they signed Caron Butler, which you would know if, again, you bothered to actually learn about the Thunder before waxing poetic about how Westbrook is killing the team.

As for your notion about OKC supposedly playing better without Westbrook: the Celtics had a better record without Rondo last year, so clearly there's no reason for OKC to even want him, right? Rondo is obviously the weak link here. ::)

Oh yeah, and the Celtics missed Rondo in the playoffs? So somehow that line of thinking doesn't apply to OKC, who were eliminated in 5 games by the Grizzlies without Westbrook. Gotcha.
Did I miss the part where there were great young players that have developed around Westbrook? Brackins? Steve Adams?  Andre Roberson?  I don't think that team is a team that's easy to develop on for a young player right, now and I think a part of that is because it's a star dominated team. We saw Perk take a step back there, and I don't think Caron Butler is having some resurgence there.

I don't compare a tanking team to the Thunder. I just don't. I'm not even saying the Thunder are better without Westbrook. Westbrook is a good player. But give me Rondo over him all day every day.
He's better for winning. He's better for helping players develop. He's not better for scoring lots of points.

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Yes I think Rondo will keep making all defensive teams or will at least continue to be a good defensive player. It will be harder for him to gamble.

Yes, Westbrook will catch up a bit

Yes I think Rondo will make less than Westbrook. If he doesn't what does that tell you?

If other players were improving in any phase of the game maybe I could agree that Westbrook's presence is helping the young players, but none of them are developing. I don't lay that all at Westbrook's feet, but Rondo has played with many young players that developed well. Westbrook not as much.  Rondo makes players around him better. Westbrook it's a lot harder to say.

The bolded is the kind of blanket statement that makes some posters wonder how many OKC games you actually watch.

Anyway, I think that it's very possible that Rondo makes more than Westbrook on his next contract simply because the salary cap is poised to be so much higher than it was when Westbrook signed his deal.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:23:38 AM by D.o.s. »
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
Yes I think Rondo will keep making all defensive teams or will at least continue to be a good defensive player. It will be harder for him to gamble.

Yes, Westbrook will catch up a bit

Yes I think Rondo will make less than Westbrook. If he doesn't what does that tell you?

If other players were improving in any phase of the game maybe I could agree that Westbrook's presence is helping the young players, but none of them are developing. I don't lay that all at Westbrook's feet, but Rondo has played with many young players that developed well. Westbrook not as much.  Rondo makes players around him better. Westbrook it's a lot harder to say.

The bolded is the kind of blanket statement that makes some posters wonder how many OKC games you actually watch.

Anyway, I think that it's very possible that Rondo makes more than Westbrook on his next contract simply because the salary cap is poised to be so much higher than it was when Westbrook signed his deal.
Other than Reggie Jackson, who clearly got his chance when Westbrook wasn't around who exactly are the young Thunder that everyone is so excited about? What are the major contributions being made by the young Thunder players?

Also....for these super educated OKC fans that watch OKC and watch random teams far away from them....are you ever going to tell me where I'm wrong? Are you going to explain in what way Westbrook is helping his teammates play better? Are you going to explain how the Thunder would get worse with Rondo?

We're all waiting.

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
I've made the Westbrook/Rondo argument many times before, but some CliffsNotes:

-OKC needs Westbrook, or a scorer like Westbrook, in order to keep teams from smothering Durant. We saw it in the playoffs last year, and someone made it a point in this thread earlier, I believe: You put Rondo on that team, and there's no reason they're not going to rotate all of their best defenders onto KD, who will be forced to play all 48 minutes of every game because they're not scoring enough points without Westbrook.

-Rondo is great at many things, but his strengths don't lie on being a threat to score on every single possession. That's exactly what OKC's offense demands -- a pair of wings that demand absolute attention on every possession from 25 feet in. The fact that OKC's offense is still super basic is partially to blame here, but the idea that Rondo will make guys like Perkins, Butler and Ibaka better by getting them the ball is dumb. They're not great offensive players, they're never going to be great offensive players (Butler's good, but he's real old). 

I'm not sure which young players you're referring to that aren't being made better by Westbrook so much as they're not seeing the floor because the Thunder are trying to win a championship, so Scott Brookes is playing the players he knows are, you know, already good at basketball.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Also, I'd add that a request for nuanced discussion when you've ignored and/or blithely dismissed the stuff that other posters have already put forward in this thread, while your own argument seems to rest on "but the assists and the playoff experience" is pretty lame.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Offline celticmania

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 706
  • Tommy Points: 39
Westbrook is better. The thunder would be stupid if they do that deal

Offline Celtics18

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11688
  • Tommy Points: 1469
I've made the Westbrook/Rondo argument many times before, but some CliffsNotes:

-OKC needs Westbrook, or a scorer like Westbrook, in order to keep teams from smothering Durant. We saw it in the playoffs last year, and someone made it a point in this thread earlier, I believe: You put Rondo on that team, and there's no reason they're not going to rotate all of their best defenders onto KD, who will be forced to play all 48 minutes of every game because they're not scoring enough points without Westbrook.

-Rondo is great at many things, but his strengths don't lie on being a threat to score on every single possession. That's exactly what OKC's offense demands -- a pair of wings that demand absolute attention on every possession from 25 feet in. The fact that OKC's offense is still super basic is partially to blame here, but the idea that Rondo will make guys like Perkins, Butler and Ibaka better by getting them the ball is dumb. They're not great offensive players, they're never going to be great offensive players (Butler's good, but he's real old). 

I'm not sure which young players you're referring to that aren't being made better by Westbrook so much as they're not seeing the floor because the Thunder are trying to win a championship, so Scott Brookes is playing the players he knows are, you know, already good at basketball.

I don't think that first part that I bolded is necessarily true.  It seems to imply the oft repeated around here, but false, adage that defenses don't need to pay close attention to Rondo.  Defenses have to pay very close attention to Rondo.  His ability to get in the lane and find open players means defenses have to pack the paint against him.  His deceptiveness and ability to find open players means that defenses are often caught off guard and left scrambling to find players to guard.  He doesn't overpower defenses the way Westbrook does, rather he confuses them. 

Having Rondo on the Thunder might well help get a few more easy looks per game for the likes of Ibaka, Perkins, Sefolosha, and Butler.  That is not to say that he would turn those guys into great offensive players (although, Ibaka is a fairly talented offensive player), but I could easily see them getting enough better looks each with Rondo as their point guard to off-set the difference in individual scoring output between the two players. 

I guess I do think this current Thunder team would be a legitimate title contender if they had a healthy Rondo (unfortunately, 2014 Rondo probably wouldn't cut it) instead of Westbrook. 

I happen to think they might even be a little better.   

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson