Author Topic: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?  (Read 14210 times)

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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2014, 11:50:32 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Asik is not worth a top 20 draft pick.

So, you wouldn't trade the #17 pick for a legit defensive-minded center?

We've been without a legit center for what 3 years now?  Danny drafts a bust in melo, passes on an available gorgi dieng and plumlee and ships iverson overseas.  I know Fav was our center until he got hurt but I've been really disappointed on how poorly Ainge has attempted to address our obvious rebounding and low post offensive for the past few years.  We have umpteen guards and power forwards but no decent center when there were 2 available in the draft last year.  Maybe that center will come in next years draft, or asik or embid will drop in our laps, but it's disheartening to see this team battle and not have any tough inside help on a weekly basis.  Danny needs to make this a main priority in the next 2-3 years.

Didn't you write this just a couple days ago? Has something changed your mind?
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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2014, 11:51:40 PM »

Offline footey

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Asik is not worth a top 20 draft pick.

He's playing tonight like a top 4 pick.

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2014, 11:52:55 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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A lot of what Dos said, but also, who's to say Ainge has to give up much of value? Or at least, value to the Celtics?

Danny seems to value cap space in 2015 extremely highly. So any contract that expires before then, gaining or sending, is almost inconsequential outside of a handful of players (Rondo, Sully, Olnyk, Green).

So really, it comes down to picks. Is Asik worth a lottery protected Celtics 1st? Maybe. A top-20 protected first? Almost certainly.

And what does Morey value? Smart money says immediate cap relief and future non-cap binding in 2014's summer assets (or picks).

I don't doubt that given enough motivation on Morey's part, a deal gets done. If Melo decides to go to Houston, which I really hope he does to redeem his sullied career, who's to say if Danny plays hardball we can't get Asik for non-guaranteed contracts and a 2nd?

I understand the situation your presenting.  If the Rockets sign Melo or another big contract definitely they will value non guaranteed contracts more than anything.  Which ends up being a better bargain for us (or worse some other team).

I'm presenting a situation where Houston doesn't get to bring in Melo and wants a fair value/slightly overpaid for a starting calibre Center.

On the flipside the Celts desperately need a starting Center , even if its for a one year rental. If we don't have that Center/Rim protector , its going to put alot of strain for the rest of the lineup again.  The Value for players like Green and Rondo will start plummeting. 


But even in your context, Bass holds negative value for Houston. Terrance Jones was flat out better this year. Why take on future salary when what you really need is an impact player? Houston has role players. Jones, Parsons, Beverly, Garcia, Casspi, Lin, Asik if he sticks. They're all shown to be capable role players. They need Brandon Bass at his current contract like a hole in the head.

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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 11:59:48 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Asik is not worth a top 20 draft pick.

What is he worth then?

He is considered a starting Center in the league

You don't give up a top 20 pick for a part time starting center like Dalembert, but thats likely the price you have to pay for guys like Mozgov, Asik. It's a hard position to fill

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 12:03:29 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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A lot of what Dos said, but also, who's to say Ainge has to give up much of value? Or at least, value to the Celtics?

Danny seems to value cap space in 2015 extremely highly. So any contract that expires before then, gaining or sending, is almost inconsequential outside of a handful of players (Rondo, Sully, Olnyk, Green).

So really, it comes down to picks. Is Asik worth a lottery protected Celtics 1st? Maybe. A top-20 protected first? Almost certainly.

And what does Morey value? Smart money says immediate cap relief and future non-cap binding in 2014's summer assets (or picks).

I don't doubt that given enough motivation on Morey's part, a deal gets done. If Melo decides to go to Houston, which I really hope he does to redeem his sullied career, who's to say if Danny plays hardball we can't get Asik for non-guaranteed contracts and a 2nd?

I understand the situation your presenting.  If the Rockets sign Melo or another big contract definitely they will value non guaranteed contracts more than anything.  Which ends up being a better bargain for us (or worse some other team).

I'm presenting a situation where Houston doesn't get to bring in Melo and wants a fair value/slightly overpaid for a starting calibre Center.

On the flipside the Celts desperately need a starting Center , even if its for a one year rental. If we don't have that Center/Rim protector , its going to put alot of strain for the rest of the lineup again.  The Value for players like Green and Rondo will start plummeting. 


But even in your context, Bass holds negative value for Houston. Terrance Jones was flat out better this year. Why take on future salary when what you really need is an impact player? Houston has role players. Jones, Parsons, Beverly, Garcia, Casspi, Lin, Asik if he sticks. They're all shown to be capable role players. They need Brandon Bass at his current contract like a hole in the head.

Bass means little compared to the 17th pick. I was not able to come up with a trade to match salaries, unless Bass, Anthony was included (no way they take Wallace). I mean if Danny can come up with other ways to make it work fine.

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 12:13:29 AM »

Offline chambers

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The question is why?
This trade makes us mediocre and wins us another 5-10 games with a healthy Rondo and Asik protecting the rim.
We are giving up a first round pick for 12 months of Omer Asik.
What happens if Omer Asik walks at seasons end.
Then Rondo walks.
They're both playing contract years so you can bet they'll be playing their hearts out.

So either one of them walks, or both- and we are left with nothing but one less Brooklyn pick and a crappier 2015 pick of our own.

I'd love Asik, but I don't see the point in giving up valuable assets for a guy that Morey is desperate to get rid of and is expiring.
I asked the question in another thread regarding Asik and Lin coming here.
If Asik has a career year here on the Celtics as a starter, and builds his value up even more, do we match an offer from a team like Charlotte for a four year $60 million deal?
Wait till he's a free agent.
I just think we need to get the top 15-20 NBA player here first, locked in or at least on the roster before we start giving away picks and adding pointless wins to our 2015 season.

I don't understand the assumption that Ainge sits back after acquiring Asik and does nothing else to improve the roster.

He won't sit back, but he's also not going to make moves for the sake of making them. He'll obviously try and get Love or another top 20 player here. But what are the chances this actually occurs?
I can't see him gambling away assets on the hope that a free agent will re-sign with us. He's stated before that he doesn't like situations where 'rentals' are involved- it's just too risky.

If it means giving up a pick in a draft like this then no way. I think he'd rather wait till the offseason and see if he can lure them here on a longer deal which he can turn into a trade asset if things don't work out.
Now if he can get rid of Green's contract for an expiring Asik, then maybe he has to give up a Clippers pick in 15'. If they can't get Melo then perhaps. Green at 8-9 million is an okay 3rd/4th guy for them but they aren't taking his contract on until they know a better starting caliber small forward option isn't available.

I think it's much more likely you see something like Green+2nd rounder for Asik.
Both teams benefit more IMO.

"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2014, 12:28:31 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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The question is why?
This trade makes us mediocre and wins us another 5-10 games with a healthy Rondo and Asik protecting the rim.
We are giving up a first round pick for 12 months of Omer Asik.
What happens if Omer Asik walks at seasons end.
Then Rondo walks.
They're both playing contract years so you can bet they'll be playing their hearts out.

So either one of them walks, or both- and we are left with nothing but one less Brooklyn pick and a crappier 2015 pick of our own.

I'd love Asik, but I don't see the point in giving up valuable assets for a guy that Morey is desperate to get rid of and is expiring.
I asked the question in another thread regarding Asik and Lin coming here.
If Asik has a career year here on the Celtics as a starter, and builds his value up even more, do we match an offer from a team like Charlotte for a four year $60 million deal?
Wait till he's a free agent.
I just think we need to get the top 15-20 NBA player here first, locked in or at least on the roster before we start giving away picks and adding pointless wins to our 2015 season.

I don't understand the assumption that Ainge sits back after acquiring Asik and does nothing else to improve the roster.

He won't sit back, but he's also not going to make moves for the sake of making them. He'll obviously try and get Love or another top 20 player here. But what are the chances this actually occurs?
I can't see him gambling away assets on the hope that a free agent will re-sign with us. He's stated before that he doesn't like situations where 'rentals' are involved- it's just too risky.

If it means giving up a pick in a draft like this then no way. I think he'd rather wait till the offseason and see if he can lure them here on a longer deal which he can turn into a trade asset if things don't work out.
Now if he can get rid of Green's contract for an expiring Asik, then maybe he has to give up a Clippers pick in 15'. If they can't get Melo then perhaps. Green at 8-9 million is an okay 3rd/4th guy for them but they aren't taking his contract on until they know a better starting caliber small forward option isn't available.

I think it's much more likely you see something like Green+2nd rounder for Asik.
Both teams benefit more IMO.

But who starts at sf then?? If your hoping it will be a draft pick like wiggins , that is likely not going to happen.  He wont be ready

You could try to sign tashuan prince to a short term deal I guess.

What about asik plus 25th for the 17th pick and expiring contracts?  Could be just good enough for morey to say yes.

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2014, 12:29:03 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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A lot of what Dos said, but also, who's to say Ainge has to give up much of value? Or at least, value to the Celtics?

Danny seems to value cap space in 2015 extremely highly. So any contract that expires before then, gaining or sending, is almost inconsequential outside of a handful of players (Rondo, Sully, Olnyk, Green).

So really, it comes down to picks. Is Asik worth a lottery protected Celtics 1st? Maybe. A top-20 protected first? Almost certainly.

And what does Morey value? Smart money says immediate cap relief and future non-cap binding in 2014's summer assets (or picks).

I don't doubt that given enough motivation on Morey's part, a deal gets done. If Melo decides to go to Houston, which I really hope he does to redeem his sullied career, who's to say if Danny plays hardball we can't get Asik for non-guaranteed contracts and a 2nd?

I understand the situation your presenting.  If the Rockets sign Melo or another big contract definitely they will value non guaranteed contracts more than anything.  Which ends up being a better bargain for us (or worse some other team).

I'm presenting a situation where Houston doesn't get to bring in Melo and wants a fair value/slightly overpaid for a starting calibre Center.

On the flipside the Celts desperately need a starting Center , even if its for a one year rental. If we don't have that Center/Rim protector , its going to put alot of strain for the rest of the lineup again.  The Value for players like Green and Rondo will start plummeting. 


But even in your context, Bass holds negative value for Houston. Terrance Jones was flat out better this year. Why take on future salary when what you really need is an impact player? Houston has role players. Jones, Parsons, Beverly, Garcia, Casspi, Lin, Asik if he sticks. They're all shown to be capable role players. They need Brandon Bass at his current contract like a hole in the head.

Bass means little compared to the 17th pick. I was not able to come up with a trade to match salaries, unless Bass, Anthony was included (no way they take Wallace). I mean if Danny can come up with other ways to make it work fine.

Bogans+all our expirings works, as does our trade exception.

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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2014, 12:32:23 AM »

Offline Lucky17

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I think it's much more likely you see something like Green+2nd rounder for Asik.
Both teams benefit more IMO.

I don't see why Houston would trade Asik for a $9 million SF when they have Chandler Parsons, though.
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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2014, 01:12:22 AM »

Offline chambers

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The question is why?
This trade makes us mediocre and wins us another 5-10 games with a healthy Rondo and Asik protecting the rim.
We are giving up a first round pick for 12 months of Omer Asik.
What happens if Omer Asik walks at seasons end.
Then Rondo walks.
They're both playing contract years so you can bet they'll be playing their hearts out.

So either one of them walks, or both- and we are left with nothing but one less Brooklyn pick and a crappier 2015 pick of our own.

I'd love Asik, but I don't see the point in giving up valuable assets for a guy that Morey is desperate to get rid of and is expiring.
I asked the question in another thread regarding Asik and Lin coming here.
If Asik has a career year here on the Celtics as a starter, and builds his value up even more, do we match an offer from a team like Charlotte for a four year $60 million deal?
Wait till he's a free agent.
I just think we need to get the top 15-20 NBA player here first, locked in or at least on the roster before we start giving away picks and adding pointless wins to our 2015 season.

I don't understand the assumption that Ainge sits back after acquiring Asik and does nothing else to improve the roster.

He won't sit back, but he's also not going to make moves for the sake of making them. He'll obviously try and get Love or another top 20 player here. But what are the chances this actually occurs?
I can't see him gambling away assets on the hope that a free agent will re-sign with us. He's stated before that he doesn't like situations where 'rentals' are involved- it's just too risky.

If it means giving up a pick in a draft like this then no way. I think he'd rather wait till the offseason and see if he can lure them here on a longer deal which he can turn into a trade asset if things don't work out.
Now if he can get rid of Green's contract for an expiring Asik, then maybe he has to give up a Clippers pick in 15'. If they can't get Melo then perhaps. Green at 8-9 million is an okay 3rd/4th guy for them but they aren't taking his contract on until they know a better starting caliber small forward option isn't available.

I think it's much more likely you see something like Green+2nd rounder for Asik.
Both teams benefit more IMO.

But who starts at sf then?? If your hoping it will be a draft pick like wiggins , that is likely not going to happen.  He wont be ready

You could try to sign tashuan prince to a short term deal I guess.

What about asik plus 25th for the 17th pick and expiring contracts?  Could be just good enough for morey to say yes.

Why wouldn't he be ready?
Most top 5 picks would start for their team- particularly if they're considered to be potential All Stars.
He'd make an immediate impact on the defensive end. If Avery Bradley can start for the Celtics then Wiggins can start his first game too.

Asik+the 25th pick might work but again, I'm in favor of getting a top 20 player here first if Asik is expiring. If Asik had 2 years left on his deal I'd be all for it.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2014, 01:17:57 AM »

Offline chambers

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I think it's much more likely you see something like Green+2nd rounder for Asik.
Both teams benefit more IMO.

I don't see why Houston would trade Asik for a $9 million SF when they have Chandler Parsons, though.

Because there's a pretty good chance he walks at the end of the year for a 12-14 million offer which they can't afford. Green has 2 more years on his deal. He'd be locked up as they make a playoff run with Harden and Howard for 2 years at 9 million. He'd fill the Parsons role for a reasonable price.
Green expires the same year as Howard, so they release his 9 million when the time comes to re-sign Howard and use it toward another 3rd string guy like Green/Parsons.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2014, 01:19:56 AM »

Offline Lucky17

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I think it's much more likely you see something like Green+2nd rounder for Asik.
Both teams benefit more IMO.

I don't see why Houston would trade Asik for a $9 million SF when they have Chandler Parsons, though.

Because there's a pretty good chance he walks at the end of the year for a 12-14 million offer which they can't afford. Green has 2 more years on his deal. He'd be locked up as they make a playoff run with Harden and Howard for 2 years at 9 million. He'd fill the Parsons role for a reasonable price.
Green expires the same year as Howard, so they release his 9 million when the time comes to re-sign Howard and use it toward another 3rd string guy like Green/Parsons.

Even if Parsons does demand $14 mil, why can't Houston afford to pay him that?

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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2014, 01:22:07 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Ab provided little to no impact in year 1. Some thought he was a bust

Wiggins will have a tough time imo. Though a top talent is still a kid. If he was stronger maybe

Like someone already pointed out also the rockets already have parsons

Having green for the short term is ok. He should play better with a rim protector which only helps the team and increases his value

Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2014, 06:52:43 AM »

Offline BleedGreen1989

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I'm sick of the obsession with Asik... He's not that good first of all. Second of all, what's the point of trading for him? He's gonna help us win 5 more games. Hes not gonna turn us into a contender. The guy is not Dwight Howard, he's not Tim Duncan.... He's Omer Asik.

If every guy Ainge wants to acquire has to be Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard, we're not making a lot of moves.

For some reason, there's this notion from some people that unless a player is a star and can instantly turn the Celtics into "contenders", then Ainge should have no interest. It's simply not how a real life roster is built.

Like you said, if that's the case, we might as well get use to Kris Humphries and Brandon Bass holding down the fort.

Then there's the contracts. If a players contract expires soon, then "he's going to walk" and we should have no interest. If a players contract is too long, then it "hampers flexibility" and we should have no interest. You can't have it both ways.

I need some coffee. I'm grumpy this morning.
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Re: Asik for 2014 Celtics 2nd 1st - one of the key plans?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2014, 06:58:48 AM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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I'm sick of the obsession with Asik... He's not that good first of all. Second of all, what's the point of trading for him? He's gonna help us win 5 more games. Hes not gonna turn us into a contender. The guy is not Dwight Howard, he's not Tim Duncan.... He's Omer Asik.

If every guy Ainge wants to acquire has to be Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard, we're not making a lot of moves.

For some reason, there's this notion from some people that unless a player is a star and can instantly turn the Celtics into "contenders", then Ainge should have no interest. It's simply not how a real life roster is built.

Like you said, if that's the case, we might as well get use to Kris Humphries and Brandon Bass holding down the fort.

Then there's the contracts. If a players contract expires soon, then "he's going to walk" and we should have no interest. If a players contract is too long, then it "hampers flexibility" and we should have no interest. You can't have it both ways.

I need some coffee. I'm grumpy this morning.

So true.

And the opposite is true, too. Just because Bass or Green aren't stars doesn't mean they are absolutely worthless.

Morey got where he is by being stingy and frugal. Maybe there's something to it.