Author Topic: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo  (Read 22641 times)

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Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2014, 08:23:28 PM »

Online Roy H.

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  That assumes that teams are going to give up positive assets in order to pay Asik $15M this year. I don't think they'd get much more than a pick for that, unless they're taking back salary.

Right.  Assume the cost of acquiring Asik is a pick. 

So, if we're getting a pick with Lin (rather than sending one out), that means that we'd essentially be getting two #1s to take on Lin's salary:  the one we're retaining, and the one the OP suggests that we're getting from Houston.

Two #1s for taking on an expiring contract seems like pretty good value.  It's similar to what the Jazz got for taking on Biedrins' and Jefferson's contracts.


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Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2014, 08:28:29 PM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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  That assumes that teams are going to give up positive assets in order to pay Asik $15M this year. I don't think they'd get much more than a pick for that, unless they're taking back salary.

Right.  Assume the cost of acquiring Asik is a pick. 

So, if we're getting a pick with Lin (rather than sending one out), that means that we'd essentially be getting two #1s to take on Lin's salary:  the one we're retaining, and the one the OP suggests that we're getting from Houston.

Two #1s for taking on an expiring contract seems like pretty good value.  It's similar to what the Jazz got for taking on Biedrins' and Jefferson's contracts.

So this trade is pretty contingent on Houston being desperate for Melo.

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2014, 09:47:50 PM »

Offline chambers

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I'm not sure we need to make these moves to get Asik though. Just wait a season and let Houston pay his big final year bill. If he walks and we finish 'blowing things up' then we've wasted a crucial season of another possible top 5 pick.
Bring him in the offseason with the other free agents if we can afford it.
Adding Lin and Asik turns us into a 35ish win team? Maybe a first round exit and then they can walk to the highest bidder.

Danny Ainge doesn't operate like this. He's goes in guns blazing or he retreats to the strategy HQ- he doesn't muddle around in between.
Other than Eddie's points about Sully and KO being able to play their natural position there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to do this for just a late first round pick when the potential lottery pick we'd gain is worth squillions more. To continue on Eddie's point, we can still draft a center of our own or trade one of our 20 picks for a center we like this season if we need to move up a few spots from 18 and want Sully and KO to play their natural games.

The aim is to get a top 20 player here first. Fry a big fish, and then get guys like Asik. Move Jeff Green to get Asik if we need that elite rim protector. Give up a late first rounder of our own ie the Clippers pick if we have to.
 
I can't see any situation where an expiring Asik comes here with an expiring Lin as a filler in a rebuilding project- unless there is far more incentive than a lone late first rounder.
Just my opinion.

I understand your point of view, but I think you may go too far when you attribute this philosophy not only to yourself, but also to Danny.

How does this explain the fact (or, at least, strongly-sourced rumor) that Danny had interest in acquiring Asik last year, and would have surrendered trade assets to do so?

Good question.
The rumors I remember involved either Bass +Bogans or Jeff Green.

Morey didn't seem to bite- I think because he wants the cap room for Melo or another star.
In my opinion Danny wants to dump Jeff Green's contract more than anything on this roster- to make room for 2015 and 2016 free agents because there is no way that Green turns down his qualifying offer in 2015/16 and he'll be stuck with Green and Wallace's deals clogging up 20 million while we're trying to re-sign Rondo and some co-stars.

As I said earlier, if he has the groundwork in place with Flip Saunders for a sign and trade of Kevin Love or some kind of Carmelo trade in the works, then bringing Asik here makes sense because he can dump Green+Bass, and maybe even Wallace with one of our future first rounders in any of those deals- and we'd want to go as deep in the playoffs as possible.

There's simply not enough incentive for us to send all our expirings and make our team medicore instead of terrible for a single late first rounder.
Morey won't take Green or Bass until he knows Melo is off the table and even then he'd want a pick of his own to take on Green until 2016.

Just my take on the situation. Would the Bulls give us their pick from the Bobcats this year if we took Boozer off their hands? It would be pick #16 and he expires at the end of this year.
Or woud they swap their bobcats pick this year for our clippers pick if we took Boozer for a season?





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Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2014, 10:04:09 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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I thought it was Lee, Bass, and a protected 1st for Asik?
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Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2014, 10:17:13 PM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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Don't they want the space to re-sign Parsons, too?

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2014, 10:20:07 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Don't they want the space to re-sign Parsons, too?

He won't be a free agent until after the 2014/15 season. Rockets have him locked up for cheap via a team option.
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Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2014, 10:41:22 PM »

Offline celticsfan8591

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Isn't this not allowed though? We can't trade the exception in combination with other players and both asik and lin are making more than the exception next year.  The only way we could trade for either of them with the exception is if their salary for the purpose of the trade is their cap hit (possible but I don't know, does anyone have an idea?) Even if their "salary" is their cap hit, we'd run into the same problem as with our Clippers deal last year.  We'd have to convince the NBA that we weren't breaking a large deal into two smaller ones to circumvent league rules.  Which as we found out last year isn't easy to do.

Lin goes into the TE, and Asik for Bogans and non-guaranteed filler works per the CBA. There's no salary aggregation taking place.

Can you explain this further? I understand that the two separate deals are legal (assuming, as I said before, that Lin/Asik's "salary" is their cap hit).  What I thought was illegal is that these two deals are essentially components of a larger deal that was broken into two smaller ones in order to get around the restrictions on trading trade exceptions.  Isn't it illegal to do that?  I thought all transactions had to be independent of each other.  I think we'd have a tough time arguing these deals aren't related, because the purpose of this trade for the Rockets is to clear enough cap space for Melo and neither individual trade does that.

It's a legal deal.  You can structure the deal however you want.  Breaking a trade down into components is how the Celtics got a big trade exception while dealing Pierce/Garnett.  If you are thinking of the failed Clippers trade, that was because you can't include a coach as part of a larger deal and the Celtics couldn't show that was an independent transaction.

But can't you also not include a trade exception as part of a larger deal? I don't see how this situation is different than the failed Clippers trade, aside from replacing a coach with a trade exception.  Both are large trades that are not legal and we are now trying to make it legal by breaking it into two smaller trades.  I don't see why the NBA wouldn't shoot this down for the same reasons it shot down the Clippers deal.

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2014, 10:46:26 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Isn't this not allowed though? We can't trade the exception in combination with other players and both asik and lin are making more than the exception next year.  The only way we could trade for either of them with the exception is if their salary for the purpose of the trade is their cap hit (possible but I don't know, does anyone have an idea?) Even if their "salary" is their cap hit, we'd run into the same problem as with our Clippers deal last year.  We'd have to convince the NBA that we weren't breaking a large deal into two smaller ones to circumvent league rules.  Which as we found out last year isn't easy to do.

Lin goes into the TE, and Asik for Bogans and non-guaranteed filler works per the CBA. There's no salary aggregation taking place.

Can you explain this further? I understand that the two separate deals are legal (assuming, as I said before, that Lin/Asik's "salary" is their cap hit).  What I thought was illegal is that these two deals are essentially components of a larger deal that was broken into two smaller ones in order to get around the restrictions on trading trade exceptions.  Isn't it illegal to do that?  I thought all transactions had to be independent of each other.  I think we'd have a tough time arguing these deals aren't related, because the purpose of this trade for the Rockets is to clear enough cap space for Melo and neither individual trade does that.

It's a legal deal.  You can structure the deal however you want.  Breaking a trade down into components is how the Celtics got a big trade exception while dealing Pierce/Garnett.  If you are thinking of the failed Clippers trade, that was because you can't include a coach as part of a larger deal and the Celtics couldn't show that was an independent transaction.

But can't you also not include a trade exception as part of a larger deal? I don't see how this situation is different than the failed Clippers trade, aside from replacing a coach with a trade exception.  Both are large trades that are not legal and we are now trying to make it legal by breaking it into two smaller trades.  I don't see why the NBA wouldn't shoot this down for the same reasons it shot down the Clippers deal.

You can't combine salary with a trade exception to bring back a contract larger than the TE.

But that's not happening here. It's a single trade with two, simultaneous components: Lin into the TE, and Asik for the nonguaranteed contracts.
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Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2014, 10:57:22 PM »

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Isn't this not allowed though? We can't trade the exception in combination with other players and both asik and lin are making more than the exception next year.  The only way we could trade for either of them with the exception is if their salary for the purpose of the trade is their cap hit (possible but I don't know, does anyone have an idea?) Even if their "salary" is their cap hit, we'd run into the same problem as with our Clippers deal last year.  We'd have to convince the NBA that we weren't breaking a large deal into two smaller ones to circumvent league rules.  Which as we found out last year isn't easy to do.

Lin goes into the TE, and Asik for Bogans and non-guaranteed filler works per the CBA. There's no salary aggregation taking place.

Can you explain this further? I understand that the two separate deals are legal (assuming, as I said before, that Lin/Asik's "salary" is their cap hit).  What I thought was illegal is that these two deals are essentially components of a larger deal that was broken into two smaller ones in order to get around the restrictions on trading trade exceptions.  Isn't it illegal to do that?  I thought all transactions had to be independent of each other.  I think we'd have a tough time arguing these deals aren't related, because the purpose of this trade for the Rockets is to clear enough cap space for Melo and neither individual trade does that.

It's a legal deal.  You can structure the deal however you want.  Breaking a trade down into components is how the Celtics got a big trade exception while dealing Pierce/Garnett.  If you are thinking of the failed Clippers trade, that was because you can't include a coach as part of a larger deal and the Celtics couldn't show that was an independent transaction.

But can't you also not include a trade exception as part of a larger deal? I don't see how this situation is different than the failed Clippers trade, aside from replacing a coach with a trade exception.  Both are large trades that are not legal and we are now trying to make it legal by breaking it into two smaller trades.  I don't see why the NBA wouldn't shoot this down for the same reasons it shot down the Clippers deal.

You are allowed to do what are called simultaneous trades. You can even structure the same trade differently for each team, even though it's the same sets of trades.  You just have to tell the league how it's working when you make the trade.  Trades like this happen all the time.  They're very common.  The Nets trade was actually two different trades from the Celtics perspective... Pierce for Bogans, and KG/JET for Wallace, hump, and Joseph.  For the nets, it was a single trade for everyone.  This is why we have a trade exception for Pierce... You can only get those in a 1-for 1 trade.

The Clippers thing was very different.  There is specific language in the CBA saying what players can and cannot be traded for.  They can't be traded for coaches, per the CBA.  There was concern given the protracted and public negotiations that a side deal would be made between the teams which would in essence result in a player being traded for Doc.  That's why they stepped in.  If Bledsoe had come to Boston, it's possible he/his agent/the players' association could have appealed the trade saying it went against league rules.  They put the one year limitation just to prevent any impropriety.


Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2014, 12:53:49 AM »

Offline footey

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If Jeremy Lin plays for us next year like he does tonight v. Portland, I'd gladly include him in the trade!!

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2014, 04:14:06 PM »

Offline erisred

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original proposal is an almost to-good-to-be-true offer.  Picking up Asik and Lin for so little value.  carry Lin for just 1 more year and cut him loose when we're ready to make a move in free agency.  resign Asik and Rondo that offseason to reasonable deals.  Bass is off the books.  Green and Wallace become better trade assets as expiring deals.  C's have a developing Sully, KO, (probably AB too) and 3 firsts from this year's draft as well as a load of picks (including 2 next year).

that's a pretty nice position to be in for improving the team after next year.
To me that would qualify as fireworks.

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2014, 04:21:30 PM »

Offline erisred

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I'm OK with this deal, if it can legally be pulled off...I do wonder if the NBA wouldn't just look at this as one large deal and not allow it...If so, then I'd be more than fine with the Asik part of the equation.  I've wanted Asik on this team for awhile now.

Actually happy that Ainge couldn't get a deal worked out before the deadline, because if Asik was on this team this year, they win at least 3-5 more games.  Not saying that he's the next Bill Russell, be we all know that rim protection/post defense was a gigantic issue and Asik is one of the best defensive big men in the game.

However, I agree with a prior post that we should wait on any deal involving Asik until draft night.  If we have a shot at Embiid, we take it and leave Asik alone.
Why? Embiid isn't going to set the NBA on fire as a rookie. Get Asik, start and play him 32 minutes a game. Let Embiid have the other 16 and develop the heck out of him.  The C's could make a decision about which to keep as the starter down the road a year or so from now.

Now if Asik is going to cost major assets, and the C's are getting Embiid, then maybe not, but the way this deal is structured Omer is only going to cost the owners $$$ and not (a) kill cap space or (b) siphon off "assets" that could be used for the "star" Danny still has to find.

Asik would be a very good "place holder", Embiid or not, at Center. He's a good defender, a better "rim protector" than anyone the C's have now, and his presence would allow Sully and Olynyk to spend most of their time at PF. A good year of PF development and Danny/Brad will have a very good idea about "keepers vs assets", too.

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2014, 04:31:38 PM »

Offline footey

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Asik wants out of Houston so he can start.  If we draft Embiid while trading for Asik, think he will stick around and re-up with us after his contract expires, so he can groom Embiid to become our long-time starter? No. So why rent him for a year, at a very high price?  I don't get it.

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2014, 04:55:01 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Asik wants out of Houston so he can start.  If we draft Embiid while trading for Asik, think he will stick around and re-up with us after his contract expires, so he can groom Embiid to become our long-time starter? No. So why rent him for a year, at a very high price?  I don't get it.

1) In this (perhaps unrealistic) universe discussed in this thread, we're only giving up salary space, and NOT cap space, to acquire him.  That's not a terribly high price, aside from the owners' pocketbooks.

2) Having someone like Asik will help Sully develop at his proper position of power forward.

3) I'm pretty high on Embiid.  Have been since before the college season began. But he's no sure thing.  He may not develop.  He'll probably develop better if he's not thrown to the wolves.  I doubt he played 30 minutes in a game all year, and maybe one back-to-back very early in the season.  I think getting a one-year center to let Embiid work on his game is preferable to having him start when he's not ready or signing a guy for three years.

4) Even if he does develop, he might be a great trade piece, which having Asik will allow.

Again, I don't think the trade (Asik and Lin for clearing space) is at all realistic, but if it were, I think the Celtics would be foolish to pass it up.

Re: How Boston Can Help Houston Land Melo
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2014, 05:03:18 PM »

Offline footey

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I also would like to get Asik, and would not mind if we had to take Lin in the process. But if we draft Embiid, I would not do it, for reasons stated above.