The effect of a good team. (Rondo/draft picks Dicussion)

[BballTim]

   Baby has a physicality to him that might have insulated him from some of the leadership ( you don't yell at guys who can knock you out as hard as guys who present little threat).

  I wonder how long it will take someone to find the video of KG making Baby cry on the bench at a game.

[Vermont Green]

The concept of Rondo on a bad team is not a hypothetical situation.  He was on a poor team at the start and he was on a worse team this past season.  In both cases, he did not perform at an all star level.  He did not appear to perform better because he was "featured" more.

Rondo's skill set and level of ability is best suited for being on a team of better players.  In that situation, his strengths are on display.  That seems to me to be pretty clear from the track record.  When he is on a lesser team, the effect is that his weaknesses are more exposed.  This also seems pretty clear.  It you want to argue against what to me is fairly obvious, a counter argument can be crafted.  Rondo was young when on the early bad teams.  Rondo is not 100% this year and will be way better next season. 

So yeah, nothing in sports is absolute but I think especially with Rondo, that the team that surrounds him makes a big difference.  More so for him than other players because he has such strong strengths and such weak weaknesses.  When the strengths are on display, he can be brilliant but when the weaknesses are exposed, he can be severely limited.

[BballTim]

The concept of Rondo on a bad team is not a hypothetical situation.  He was on a poor team at the start and he was on a worse team this past season.  In both cases, he did not perform at an all star level.  He did not appear to perform better because he was "featured" more.

Rondo's skill set and level of ability is best suited for being on a team of better players.  In that situation, his strengths are on display.  That seems to me to be pretty clear from the track record.  When he is on a lesser team, the effect is that his weaknesses are more exposed.  This also seems pretty clear.  It you want to argue against what to me is fairly obvious, a counter argument can be crafted.  Rondo was young when on the early bad teams.  Rondo is not 100% this year and will be way better next season. 

So yeah, nothing in sports is absolute but I think especially with Rondo, that the team that surrounds him makes a big difference.  More so for him than other players because he has such strong strengths and such weak weaknesses.  When the strengths are on display, he can be brilliant but when the weaknesses are exposed, he can be severely limited.

  It's true Rondo didn't make the all-star game as a rookie. But he played about 24 minutes a game in 78 games. When he was playing we outscored our opponents by just over a point a game and when he was on the bench we were outscored by over 7 points a game. He's the only player on the roster that played more than 100 minutes a game and we didn't get outscored when he played.

   As for this year, he wasn't playing at full speed due to his knee injury and he was put on a team that had lost 12 of their last 14 games and were already out of playoff contention. He wasn't as effective as he should be in the future, both because of his health and his being unfamiliar with many of his teammates. But he clearly showed that he can play at an all-star level on such a team. After his first 6 games back he averaged 13/6/11, leading the league in assists and 2nd among point guards in rebounding over that time.

[LilRip]

interesting topic. All we have to go on is our own judgement but i would think that it would've take him longer to mature, both in terms of skills and attitude.

FWIW, i think there are a lot of talented PG's out there, on less heralded teams. Kyle Lowry has really come into his own. Goran Dragic is another amazing talent. If Rondo was on a random team, I think he would've joined these group of guys who will regularly be underrated by fans of other teams.

   Sure, by all the people who can't differentiate between someone who's a 4 time all-star, been on 4 all-defense teams and has been on or on the fringes of multiple all-nba teams from players his own age who have never even been all-stars. Sadly, there are plenty of those people out there. It's true those two are coming into their own, but they're doing it 4-5 years older than Rondo did.

the difference in where we're coming from is that I dont think Rondo would've been a 4-time all star, and all-defense as quickly. Eventually, most likely yes, because the talent is there. But as I said, I think it would've taken longer for his skills and attitude to mature.

  Rondo would have taken on a bigger role on offense earlier and have been putting up bigger stats when he was younger, plus you wouldn't have seen all the ridiculous claims that his success was due to playing with the big three. There were people here who noticed Rondo's skills (and the possibility that he'd become the player he did) during his first few rookie exhibition games. It's very unlikely that giving him a bigger role earlier in his career would have slowed his development.

Really? You think there's absolutely no possibility that he would've turned out like Kemba Walker-lite, without a jump shot but with an attitude problem? Rolling his eyes whenever there's a dropped pass? No one would be claiming his success would've been from the big 3 but how much success early on would he have really achieved?

The effect of vet leadership is unmistakeable on Rondo. He's almost like KG at times. To dismiss the tremendous effect the vets had on Rondo's career is beyond ridiculous.

Someone brought up DMC and I think that's a pretty good use case. Another good example is probably Josh Smith. And Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry. And again, Brandon Jennings. That you think he's only as good as Mario Chalmers is again, pretty ridiculous in my eyes.

[Vox_Populi]

The concept of Rondo on a bad team is not a hypothetical situation.  He was on a poor team at the start and he was on a worse team this past season.  In both cases, he did not perform at an all star level.  He did not appear to perform better because he was "featured" more.

I don't understand. It's indicative of something that he didn't perform at an All-Star level as a rookie and then coming off an ACL tear in the middle of the season with no training camp? 

[pokeKingCurtis]

The concept of Rondo on a bad team is not a hypothetical situation.  He was on a poor team at the start and he was on a worse team this past season.  In both cases, he did not perform at an all star level.  He did not appear to perform better because he was "featured" more.

I don't understand. It's indicative of something that he didn't perform at an All-Star level as a rookie and then coming off an ACL tear in the middle of the season with no training camp? 

And we're not just talking about an ACL tear either. There's been massive changes in roles, in personnel, in everything.

It's like treating the NBA as a business of people, treating the players as people, is being frowned upon by some on the forum.

[BballTim]

interesting topic. All we have to go on is our own judgement but i would think that it would've take him longer to mature, both in terms of skills and attitude.

FWIW, i think there are a lot of talented PG's out there, on less heralded teams. Kyle Lowry has really come into his own. Goran Dragic is another amazing talent. If Rondo was on a random team, I think he would've joined these group of guys who will regularly be underrated by fans of other teams.

   Sure, by all the people who can't differentiate between someone who's a 4 time all-star, been on 4 all-defense teams and has been on or on the fringes of multiple all-nba teams from players his own age who have never even been all-stars. Sadly, there are plenty of those people out there. It's true those two are coming into their own, but they're doing it 4-5 years older than Rondo did.

the difference in where we're coming from is that I dont think Rondo would've been a 4-time all star, and all-defense as quickly. Eventually, most likely yes, because the talent is there. But as I said, I think it would've taken longer for his skills and attitude to mature.

  Rondo would have taken on a bigger role on offense earlier and have been putting up bigger stats when he was younger, plus you wouldn't have seen all the ridiculous claims that his success was due to playing with the big three. There were people here who noticed Rondo's skills (and the possibility that he'd become the player he did) during his first few rookie exhibition games. It's very unlikely that giving him a bigger role earlier in his career would have slowed his development.

Really? You think there's absolutely no possibility that he would've turned out like Kemba Walker-lite, without a jump shot but with an attitude problem? Rolling his eyes whenever there's a dropped pass? No one would be claiming his success would've been from the big 3 but how much success early on would he have really achieved?

  No, I didn't say there's absolutely no possibility it would happen. Are you saying there's absolutely no possibility it wouldn't? I'd say it's fairly unlikely though.

The effect of vet leadership is unmistakeable on Rondo. He's almost like KG at times. To dismiss the tremendous effect the vets had on Rondo's career is beyond ridiculous.

  All the young players on the team were in the same environment as Rondo and with the same leaders. At some point in time you need to look at why Rondo ended up so far ahead of the other guys. It's also worth pointing out that you're practically in awe of the veteran leadership of the big three. For one thing you're ignoring the fact that there was a serious rift between them and the younger players. It wasn't the rosy picture you're talking about. Also, the best players aren't always the best mentors. I think the player that was seen as one of Rondo's best mentors was Keyon Dooling. There are probably players like that on most team, Rondo chose to listen to them when some of your head case examples obviously didn't.

Someone brought up DMC and I think that's a pretty good use case. Another good example is probably Josh Smith. And Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry. And again, Brandon Jennings. That you think he's only as good as Mario Chalmers is again, pretty ridiculous in my eyes.

  No, I said he'd have a role like Chalmers on Miami.