Has Doc Rivers disproven the claims his detractors made about him this year?

[D.o.s.]

Vinny DN was 56-26 his last year and might have made a deeper playoff run but for injuries.  And it's not like the West was a cakewalk last season.

Doc will, at best, finish 58-24.

Mike

If you don't think that there was a change for the better from VDN to Doc, I present you with this Blake Griffin gem from last year:

We switch up our defensive principles every game

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9086277/vinny-del-negro-blake-griffin-expect-los-angeles-clippers-defense-improve

Are their style points in the NBA? 

Mike

Sure there are.

[MBunge]

Vinny DN was 56-26 his last year and might have made a deeper playoff run but for injuries.  And it's not like the West was a cakewalk last season.

Doc will, at best, finish 58-24.

Mike

If you don't think that there was a change for the better from VDN to Doc, I present you with this Blake Griffin gem from last year:

We switch up our defensive principles every game

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9086277/vinny-del-negro-blake-griffin-expect-los-angeles-clippers-defense-improve

Are their style points in the NBA? 

Mike

Sure there are.

Which is one of the things wrong with sports and fans today. 

Mike

[D.o.s.]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

[SparzWizard]

great article, I never doubted Doc. I had this talk with my director the other day and I think he can take them to the WCF, but iffy about making it to the finals. I have them vs the Spurs and I seriously don't know who to pick.

My director thinks they'll take the crown

Doc does have championship and deep-postseason run experiences. So it's a high possibility! I think CP3 will finally make it past the second round though. Can't wait to see OKC get taken out.

[GreenWarrior]

I really never liked doc but I respect a lot of the way he does things. he's certainly convinced me that offensive rebounding is a luxury stat.

[MBunge]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

What's not subjective is that Doc led the Clips to a whopping one more victory than Vinny did last year.  Now, you can still contend that Doc is a better coach than Vinny, but that would also indicate that coaching isn't all that important in the NBA if over the course of a season it only gets you one more win.

Of course, Doc could guide the Clips to a title this year.  That would prove something because it's the winning and losing that proves things, not stats. 

For the record, I think Doc is a good coach who was instrumental in Boston winning another title.  But no one can argue he was a "great" coach in Orlando.  He wasn't a "great" coach in Boston before KG arrived.  And you certainly can't suggest that being one win better than Vinny proves he's a "great" coach now.

Mike

[staticcc]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

What's not subjective is that Doc led the Clips to a whopping one more victory than Vinny did last year.  Now, you can still contend that Doc is a better coach than Vinny, but that would also indicate that coaching isn't all that important in the NBA if over the course of a season it only gets you one more win.

Of course, Doc could guide the Clips to a title this year.  That would prove something because it's the winning and losing that proves things, not stats. 

For the record, I think Doc is a good coach who was instrumental in Boston winning another title.  But no one can argue he was a "great" coach in Orlando.  He wasn't a "great" coach in Boston before KG arrived.  And you certainly can't suggest that being one win better than Vinny proves he's a "great" coach now.

Mike

Something is very wrong if you think that coaching is about winning a lot more games than the previous coach in the regular season. It doesn't matter that he only won one more game than VDN.

Coaching is about more than that; it includes getting the beast out of superstars, adjusting on the fly, making sure players buy into your system and forming team chemistry. Doc is better than VDN at all these things (and not just VDN by the way, he's better at these than maybe 90% of the coaches). Thats makes him great or on the cusp of greatness.

You're selling Doc way short. If KG, PP and even Kobe fricking Bryant say Doc is a great coach, I'll believe them more than mike from CelticsBlog.

[D.o.s.]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

I would very much like to see those numbers, actually. I contend that Doc implemented a better system than VDN, BBallTim offered a statement, I went in depth with some nuance because, on the face of it, you could say the Clippers were a better defensive team last year.

The truth, though, is somewhere in between.  As far as I can tell, the Clippers have played better defense most of the time this year. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

Do you have a problem with using team Defensive Rating?

[BballTim]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

I would very much like to see those numbers, actually. I contend that Doc implemented a better system than VDN, BBallTim offered a statement, I went in depth with some nuance because, on the face of it, you could say the Clippers were a better defensive team last year.

The truth, though, is somewhere in between.  As far as I can tell, the Clippers have played better defense most of the time this year. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

Do you have a problem with using team Defensive Rating?

  Team defensive rating works, and it clearly shows that the 2013 team was a little better defensively than the 2014 team. Over the course of 82 games the 2013 gave up fewer ppp than the 2014 team. You can claim that the difference is due to personnel changes but you can't really say that the team was better defensively this year.

[Clench123]

Doc not only relies on veteran players he also relies on veteran coaches. Look at his bench and you will see that he hired a very good HC  material assistant coach who is probably responsible for the real coaching just like Thib was responsible for the 88 chip.

Clippers are not winning anything.

Lol I know another creative excuse is going to come.  Get outta here with that

[D.o.s.]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

I would very much like to see those numbers, actually. I contend that Doc implemented a better system than VDN, BBallTim offered a statement, I went in depth with some nuance because, on the face of it, you could say the Clippers were a better defensive team last year.

The truth, though, is somewhere in between.  As far as I can tell, the Clippers have played better defense most of the time this year. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

Do you have a problem with using team Defensive Rating?

  Team defensive rating works, and it clearly shows that the 2013 team was a little better defensively than the 2014 team. Over the course of 82 games the 2013 gave up fewer ppp than the 2014 team. You can claim that the difference is due to personnel changes but you can't really say that the team was better defensively this year.

I will say that TDR shows that the most used lineups this year are better defensively than the most used lineup from 2013, which seems to be the most pertinent bit of information.

In the aggregate, and without Chris Paul, the 2014 team was worse on defense. That's true. That also has little bearing on the playoffs and how the Clippers D might fair.

[Fafnir]

Doc just being able to play DeAndre Jordan 35 MPG is huge for the Clippers. VDN's inability to utilize Jordan really limited the Clippers last year.

Combine that with getting CP3 to relinquish his iron clad grip on the offense to give more to Griffin and Doc's done a fabulous job this year.

[Eja117]

For a long period of time this blog was as divided about Doc Rivers being the coach of the Boston Celtics as tanking has divided the blog this year. The claims regarding Doc's coaching abilities that many detractors used against him were:

His offensive system was bad.
His defensive system was due only to Tom Thibodeau and Doc couldn't coach a good defensive team without Tibs.
He couldn't develop talent.
He wanted Rondo to hold the ball too often.

But Doc is now coaching the Clippers who have the highest offensive efficiency in the league and score the most points per game in the league.

The Clippers have the 9th highest defensive efficiency in the league.

Arguably Doc has developed the overall games of Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan and Darren Collison and moved them to be much better players than before being coached by Doc.

Doc has coached and stressed to Chris Paul all year that he needs to trust his team mates, advance the ball without dribbling, and allow them to make plays and play off the ball more.

These developments this year in LA tend to belie the claims many have made against Doc. So I wonder, has Doc's coaching performance this year in LA changed your opinion of him any if you were in fact a detractor of Doc's while he was here?

God no God no. I see no reason why on Earth that the Clippers shouldn't be better than the Spurs, but until I see otherwise I don't think they are. 

Do some winning of banners and we can talk and not a minute sooner. It is not enough to have a team like that and have a pretty good record. God no.

[Fafnir]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

I would very much like to see those numbers, actually. I contend that Doc implemented a better system than VDN, BBallTim offered a statement, I went in depth with some nuance because, on the face of it, you could say the Clippers were a better defensive team last year.

The truth, though, is somewhere in between.  As far as I can tell, the Clippers have played better defense most of the time this year. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

Do you have a problem with using team Defensive Rating?

  Team defensive rating works, and it clearly shows that the 2013 team was a little better defensively than the 2014 team. Over the course of 82 games the 2013 gave up fewer ppp than the 2014 team. You can claim that the difference is due to personnel changes but you can't really say that the team was better defensively this year.

If you don't consider talent when calibrating your expectations of a team and a coach then I think you're missing a lot.

The Clippers lost a major defensive talent and replaced him with two below average team/individual defenders. Of course they also don't trot out the zombie of Chauncey Billups to stand completely stationary on both ends either so there is that going the other way.

No matter how you spin it they've put up a nearly identical defensive rating, while the style of defense has changed I don't think there is a significant difference in results. Things like Pheonix being the 8th offense instead of the 29th offense will impact a teams rating, schedule, or just randomness will show changes at the level the past two years differences.

14
95.9 Pace
104.8 DRTG
9th in the league
-1.9 better than league average

13
91.1 Pace
103.6 DRTG
8th in the league
-2.3 better than league average

Last year's team relied on forcing turnovers, fouled a ton, and was average in eFG% defense. They also played a very slow game for a team that has a reputation for being nasty in transition.

This year's team is better at eFG%, forces fewer turnovers, and fouls a whole lot less. This was accomplished  while also playing a much more open court up tempo game.

[BballTim]

Ok Vince Lombardi, feel free to totally look past my posts that show the fact that the Clippers are, for all intents and purposes, better on defense under Doc than they were under VDN.

I would also submit to you that the very best defenses in the NBA *that does not include the Clippers* have historically forced the other team to bend to their defensive principles, rather than the other way around.

Also, feel free to elucidate to me on exactly what the right way to be a fan is, I'm clearly missing something if I enjoy sports aesthetically.

Wanna bet me a hundred bucks I can't roll out a bunch of stats that show the Clippers were a better defensive team last season?  We'll just end up arguing that this stat is better than that stat, which makes the whole thing so subjective that it's almost pointless.

I would very much like to see those numbers, actually. I contend that Doc implemented a better system than VDN, BBallTim offered a statement, I went in depth with some nuance because, on the face of it, you could say the Clippers were a better defensive team last year.

The truth, though, is somewhere in between.  As far as I can tell, the Clippers have played better defense most of the time this year. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

Do you have a problem with using team Defensive Rating?

  Team defensive rating works, and it clearly shows that the 2013 team was a little better defensively than the 2014 team. Over the course of 82 games the 2013 gave up fewer ppp than the 2014 team. You can claim that the difference is due to personnel changes but you can't really say that the team was better defensively this year.

If you don't consider talent when calibrating your expectations of a team and a coach then I think you're missing a lot.

  I wasn't commenting on that. If D.o.s. wants to claim that the personnel is worse on defense that's fine. If he wants to claim that they play a better style of defense that's fine. If he wants to claim the defense was better this year than last year then it's worth pointing out that it wasn't.