Author Topic: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone  (Read 23300 times)

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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #105 on: April 17, 2014, 10:34:00 PM »

Offline gar

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Green seemed like  a different player in College. More fluid. Looked like he enjoyed the game more. Seems like it is a job now and this makes it hard work. Even with all of KG's passion for the game he admits it is hard work. You can see to toll it takes on a player like KG. Green is not that kind of force of nature that KG is. It will be hard for him to get to that next level. That is why he has the contract he has.

Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #106 on: April 17, 2014, 10:42:54 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I don't think an average 6ft 9 guy gets like 3 rebs a game.

An average player is more consistent than him.

An average player plays harder than him.

Jeff Green averages 5.1 rebounds per game for his career (and 5.6 per 36 minutes).  Guys 6'9" or taller who have averaged 3.5 or fewer rebounds per 36 minutes (Green had 4.9 this season) while playing at least 25 mpg in at least 50 games in a season include:
Corey Brewer - 2.6 in 2013-14, 3.4 in 2009-2010
Brad Sellers - 3.0 in 1987-88
James Worthy - 3.0 in 1992-93
Tayshaun Prince - 3.1 in 2013-14
Orlando Woolridge - 3.2 in 1992-93
Tim Thomas - 3.3 in 2004-05
Joe "Kobe's Daddy" Bryant - 3.4 in 1982-83
Hedo Turkoglu - 3.5 in 2004-05

Consistency doesn't mean that much in defining an average player.  What matters is the overall level of play, not the day-to-day variance.

I think Jeff Green plays hard.  I just don't think he plays hard in a way that makes him look like he's playing hard in the way that a guy like Ryan Hollins or Mikki Moore look like they are hustling without really accomplishing much.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2014, 11:06:32 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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When you look at minutes played and position played the only SFs worse than him in rebounding are Kyle Korver and Aaron Afflalo (if you even consider those guys SFs). He is literally the worst rebounder in the league. There are sooooo many point guards and players that are far smaller or are banged up that average about what he does in rebounds. It's really embarrassing. Basically he can't be bothered with that.

JR Smith (who basketball-reference.com classifies as a SF for this season), Kris Middleton, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy (barely), Corey Brewer (by a ton), Tayshaun Prince....

He's roughly in the neighborhood of guys such as Harrison Barnes, Gordon Hayward.

Jeff Green is not a good rebounder for a SF, but I don't think you can put him in the bottom five among starting SFs and he's not even close to the worst at the position.  I'm pretty sure that is the 6'9" Corey Brewer, who is averaging 2.6 rebounds per game and 2.9 rebounds per 36 minutes for Minnesota this season.  That may be because Kevin Love is hoovering up rebounds for the T-Wolves, but Brewer's career numbers are 3.0 and 4.2, respectively, which aren't close to what Green does.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2014, 12:45:43 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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i did not expect him to be a Celtic next year. But he's a pretty cerebral guy. Unless he made this statement when he was particularly distressed or keyed up, it suggests to me that he may have the expectation of being a Celtic next year. I don't see him making a comment like that recklessly... I would imagine he him having conversations that would lead him to believe he'll be around after the summer circus is all said and done.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2014, 07:01:16 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Jeff didn't exactly do it with help either when PP and KG were here nor in OKC with Durant and Westbrook.   He is a nice player but no star, period.

Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2014, 07:31:51 AM »

Offline Eja117

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When you look at minutes played and position played the only SFs worse than him in rebounding are Kyle Korver and Aaron Afflalo (if you even consider those guys SFs). He is literally the worst rebounder in the league. There are sooooo many point guards and players that are far smaller or are banged up that average about what he does in rebounds. It's really embarrassing. Basically he can't be bothered with that.

JR Smith (who basketball-reference.com classifies as a SF for this season), Kris Middleton, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy (barely), Corey Brewer (by a ton), Tayshaun Prince....

He's roughly in the neighborhood of guys such as Harrison Barnes, Gordon Hayward.

Jeff Green is not a good rebounder for a SF, but I don't think you can put him in the bottom five among starting SFs and he's not even close to the worst at the position.  I'm pretty sure that is the 6'9" Corey Brewer, who is averaging 2.6 rebounds per game and 2.9 rebounds per 36 minutes for Minnesota this season.  That may be because Kevin Love is hoovering up rebounds for the T-Wolves, but Brewer's career numbers are 3.0 and 4.2, respectively, which aren't close to what Green does.
Do they play as many minutes as him?  He's not just averaging almost no rebounds. He does it in 35 minutes. Also JR Smith is a 6th man who plays a lot of sg.

He's roughly in the neighborhood of Jrue Holiday and Eric Bledsoe and Kyle Lowry.

Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2014, 07:52:37 AM »

Online Roy H.

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When you look at minutes played and position played the only SFs worse than him in rebounding are Kyle Korver and Aaron Afflalo (if you even consider those guys SFs). He is literally the worst rebounder in the league. There are sooooo many point guards and players that are far smaller or are banged up that average about what he does in rebounds. It's really embarrassing. Basically he can't be bothered with that.

JR Smith (who basketball-reference.com classifies as a SF for this season), Kris Middleton, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy (barely), Corey Brewer (by a ton), Tayshaun Prince....

He's roughly in the neighborhood of guys such as Harrison Barnes, Gordon Hayward.

Jeff Green is not a good rebounder for a SF, but I don't think you can put him in the bottom five among starting SFs and he's not even close to the worst at the position.  I'm pretty sure that is the 6'9" Corey Brewer, who is averaging 2.6 rebounds per game and 2.9 rebounds per 36 minutes for Minnesota this season.  That may be because Kevin Love is hoovering up rebounds for the T-Wolves, but Brewer's career numbers are 3.0 and 4.2, respectively, which aren't close to what Green does.
Do they play as many minutes as him?  He's not just averaging almost no rebounds. He does it in 35 minutes. Also JR Smith is a 6th man who plays a lot of sg.

He's roughly in the neighborhood of Jrue Holiday and Eric Bledsoe and Kyle Lowry.

Among guys 6'9" and taller and who play more than 10 minutes per game, Green ranks 141st out of 146 players in TRB% (total rebounding percentage).  The players behind him:  Mike Dunleavy, Rashard Lewis, Tayshaun Prince, Steve Novak, and Corey Brewer.

Now, in fairness to Green, the majority of players 6'9" and taller are power forwards or centers. 


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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2014, 11:20:24 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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When you look at minutes played and position played the only SFs worse than him in rebounding are Kyle Korver and Aaron Afflalo (if you even consider those guys SFs). He is literally the worst rebounder in the league. There are sooooo many point guards and players that are far smaller or are banged up that average about what he does in rebounds. It's really embarrassing. Basically he can't be bothered with that.

JR Smith (who basketball-reference.com classifies as a SF for this season), Kris Middleton, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy (barely), Corey Brewer (by a ton), Tayshaun Prince....

He's roughly in the neighborhood of guys such as Harrison Barnes, Gordon Hayward.

Jeff Green is not a good rebounder for a SF, but I don't think you can put him in the bottom five among starting SFs and he's not even close to the worst at the position.  I'm pretty sure that is the 6'9" Corey Brewer, who is averaging 2.6 rebounds per game and 2.9 rebounds per 36 minutes for Minnesota this season.  That may be because Kevin Love is hoovering up rebounds for the T-Wolves, but Brewer's career numbers are 3.0 and 4.2, respectively, which aren't close to what Green does.
Do they play as many minutes as him?  He's not just averaging almost no rebounds. He does it in 35 minutes. Also JR Smith is a 6th man who plays a lot of sg.

He's roughly in the neighborhood of Jrue Holiday and Eric Bledsoe and Kyle Lowry.

Among guys 6'9" and taller and who play more than 10 minutes per game, Green ranks 141st out of 146 players in TRB% (total rebounding percentage).  The players behind him:  Mike Dunleavy, Rashard Lewis, Tayshaun Prince, Steve Novak, and Corey Brewer.

Now, in fairness to Green, the majority of players 6'9" and taller are power forwards or centers.

"6' 9" and taller"????

So automatically, in that pool of player, Green is among the shorter end of your pool of players?

And TRB%?  That's going to give equal weight to ORB%, which is going to be heavily affected by scheme (how much the coach emphasizes crashing the boards) and offensive role of the player.

Not that I'm going to claim Green is a great rebounder.  He's not.  Though I don't think that's really his job.

If you restrict it to just guys 6' 9" exactly (at least 'listed' that height), of the 34 such players who got over 1000 minutes, Green still ends up with mediocre to crappy rebounding numbers.  He's among the lowest in DRB% as well.  Of course, that still puts him in competition with power forwards like our own Jared Sullinger, who lives in the paint to rebound.

Clearly, even though Green and Sully have the same height, they have completely different jobs on both offense and defense.   Among those same 34 6' 9" players, Green took the 3rd most 3PA attempts per 36.   'Hard to grab a lot of rebounds from outside the arc.

The fact is, at the SF position, 6' 9" is on the high end.  For Green's position and job, he should be better compared to SFs, who are going to range from 6' 7" - 6' 9".  And probably to guys who play, like Green, predominantly on the perimeter on defense and from the outside-in on offense.

If you make a search of guys in that height range and restrict it to guys who took at least 3 3PT attempts per 36, it becomes a set of 35 players that are predominantly SFs, with only a little overlap into SG & PF.  In that pool Green ends up right near the middle of nearly every rebounding category, except a little lower for ORB & ORB%.

What this probably says is that for his job, Green is a mediocre rebounder.  Not great.  Not terrible.  Mediocre.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2014, 11:33:32 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Not that I'm going to claim Green is a great rebounder.  He's not.  Though I don't think that's really his job.

The team has expressed that rebounding is a skill that Green needs to work on.  There are incentives in his contract that prioritize rebounding. 

Quote
The most glaring deficiency since Green came to Boston has been his rebounding. The Celtics were so bothered by his lack of production in that area that when they signed him to a 4-year, $36 million extension last summer, Ainge included a rebounding incentive clause in the deal.

More rebounds, more pay.

“That one area was our biggest concern,” Ainge said. “To me, it’s not a lack of effort. It’s about bad habits.

“I don’t think Jeff has ever focused on rebounding in his life, from what I can tell.” ...

The emphasis on rebounding and aggressiveness — there’s that word again — has been hammered home by coach Doc Rivers and forward Kevin Garnett, who implores Green to look at the basket more.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy


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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #114 on: April 18, 2014, 01:36:23 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Not that I'm going to claim Green is a great rebounder.  He's not.  Though I don't think that's really his job.

The team has expressed that rebounding is a skill that Green needs to work on.  There are incentives in his contract that prioritize rebounding. 

Quote
The most glaring deficiency since Green came to Boston has been his rebounding. The Celtics were so bothered by his lack of production in that area that when they signed him to a 4-year, $36 million extension last summer, Ainge included a rebounding incentive clause in the deal.

More rebounds, more pay.

“That one area was our biggest concern,” Ainge said. “To me, it’s not a lack of effort. It’s about bad habits.

“I don’t think Jeff has ever focused on rebounding in his life, from what I can tell.” ...

The emphasis on rebounding and aggressiveness — there’s that word again — has been hammered home by coach Doc Rivers and forward Kevin Garnett, who implores Green to look at the basket more.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy

Yeah, yeah. Old news.

That has nothing to do with what really has been happening on the floor.

Every coach ends up doing the same things with Green.  They play Green as an outside-in scorer, taking 3PT shots to space the defense and only coming in on slashes of his own.   On the other end of the floor they play him primarily as a perimeter defender, usually assigned to try to isolate a wing.    These usages of Green play to his strengths.  This makes sense to use him this way.  So this is how he gets used.

He's not the only SF who gets used this way.  Lots of them do.  I could identify probably around 30 such players in the league getting rotation minutes.   And among those sorts of players, Green's rebound numbers are pretty average.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2014, 01:51:38 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Yeah, yeah. Old news.

That has nothing to do with what really has been happening on the floor.

Every coach ends up doing the same things with Green.  They play Green as an outside-in scorer, taking 3PT shots to space the defense and only coming in on slashes of his own.   On the other end of the floor they play him primarily as a perimeter defender, usually assigned to try to isolate a wing.    These usages of Green play to his strengths.  This makes sense to use him this way.  So this is how he gets used

He's not the only SF who gets used this way.  Lots of them do.  I could identify probably around 30 such players in the league getting rotation minutes.   And among those sorts of players, Green's rebound numbers are pretty average.

So, Danny is wrong when he identifies it as a weakness?

Also, does Green's role differ that much from Paul Pierce's?  The Captain played mostly outside, as well.  Yet, his TRB% last year was much better than Green's this season; he pulled in 45% more of the rebounds available to him.  The difference was even more pronounced on the defensive boards, where Pierce got 19.7% of all rebounds, compared to 13.7% for Green this year.


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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2014, 02:23:24 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Green seemed like  a different player in College. More fluid. Looked like he enjoyed the game more. Seems like it is a job now and this makes it hard work. Even with all of KG's passion for the game he admits it is hard work. You can see to toll it takes on a player like KG. Green is not that kind of force of nature that KG is. It will be hard for him to get to that next level. That is why he has the contract he has.
Could that be due to the fact that college teams are not very good?

The NBA is hard work. Guys are waaaay more talented than college kids. They are also far more experienced and savvy.

Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2014, 02:33:33 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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When you look at minutes played and position played the only SFs worse than him in rebounding are Kyle Korver and Aaron Afflalo (if you even consider those guys SFs). He is literally the worst rebounder in the league. There are sooooo many point guards and players that are far smaller or are banged up that average about what he does in rebounds. It's really embarrassing. Basically he can't be bothered with that.

JR Smith (who basketball-reference.com classifies as a SF for this season), Kris Middleton, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy (barely), Corey Brewer (by a ton), Tayshaun Prince....

He's roughly in the neighborhood of guys such as Harrison Barnes, Gordon Hayward.

Jeff Green is not a good rebounder for a SF, but I don't think you can put him in the bottom five among starting SFs and he's not even close to the worst at the position.  I'm pretty sure that is the 6'9" Corey Brewer, who is averaging 2.6 rebounds per game and 2.9 rebounds per 36 minutes for Minnesota this season.  That may be because Kevin Love is hoovering up rebounds for the T-Wolves, but Brewer's career numbers are 3.0 and 4.2, respectively, which aren't close to what Green does.
Do they play as many minutes as him?  He's not just averaging almost no rebounds. He does it in 35 minutes. Also JR Smith is a 6th man who plays a lot of sg.

He's roughly in the neighborhood of Jrue Holiday and Eric Bledsoe and Kyle Lowry.

The guys I named all have fewer rebounds per 36 minutes, which allows you to compare players with differing minutes per game.  My guess is that Green is probably about 0.5 rebounds per 36 minutes less than the median starting SF, but I don't feel like going back and figuring it out.  Feel free to actually go team by team and list the starting SF, as well as anyone else who got significant minutes at the position, and compile their rpg, r/36m, and TRB%.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2014, 02:34:10 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think Jeff Green plays hard.  I just don't think he plays hard in a way that makes him look like he's playing hard in the way that a guy like Ryan Hollins or Mikki Moore look like they are hustling without really accomplishing much.

Nailed it.
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Re: Jeff Green: I can't do it alone
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2014, 02:50:37 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Yeah, yeah. Old news.

That has nothing to do with what really has been happening on the floor.

Every coach ends up doing the same things with Green.  They play Green as an outside-in scorer, taking 3PT shots to space the defense and only coming in on slashes of his own.   On the other end of the floor they play him primarily as a perimeter defender, usually assigned to try to isolate a wing.    These usages of Green play to his strengths.  This makes sense to use him this way.  So this is how he gets used

He's not the only SF who gets used this way.  Lots of them do.  I could identify probably around 30 such players in the league getting rotation minutes.   And among those sorts of players, Green's rebound numbers are pretty average.

So, Danny is wrong when he identifies it as a weakness?

Also, does Green's role differ that much from Paul Pierce's?  The Captain played mostly outside, as well.  Yet, his TRB% last year was much better than Green's this season; he pulled in 45% more of the rebounds available to him.  The difference was even more pronounced on the defensive boards, where Pierce got 19.7% of all rebounds, compared to 13.7% for Green this year.

Seriously?  You don't see how vastly different Green and Pierce have been and are used?

Pierce has never been as good a perimeter man defender as Green, but is much stronger at holding the post.  On P&R , Green is often tasked with taking the ball handler, whereas Pierce would normally take the roller.  On offense, the differences are a longer list.   Green gets barely 1.7 close touches (recieved passes within 12 feet) per game.    Pierce probably got at least twice that.  Pierce routinely posted up players from the elbow inward.  Green posts up once every blue moon.

ORB%, TRB% and DRB% are fine stats for measuring impact on team rebounding, but they don't really measure how well an individual player rebounds the chances that he actually has at a ball.   If Avery Bradley shoots from outside the arc and the carom goes to the other side and is grabbed by someone 20 feet away, that counts against his ORB% and TRB% - even though he never had a chance at grabbing that rebound.

NBA.com's Player Tracking tracks the number of times a player is within 3.5 feet of a rebound as a 'rebounding chance'.  This provides some illuminating information about the impact of a player's role and floor responsibilities on their rebounding numbers.

Jared Sullinger is, I think we would all agree, a great rebounder.  Well, given his role on the team, he was within 3.5 feet of a rebound on average 13.3 times per game.   He grabbed 60.9% of them to reach his per-game average of 8.1.   

Jeff Green, playing a different role, was only within 3.5 feet of a rebound 7.8 times per game.  He grabbed 59.3% of them to reach his per-game average of 4.6.

So, within their actual opportunities, both players grabbed 60%.   

If we are going to get down on Green for his low rebounding numbers, the real thing we are questioning is where he should be on the floor.    So it becomes a trade off question.  Is Green more valuable to you if he posts-up more or crashes the boards or plays defense in the paint than he is as a floor-spacing shooter and slasher and get-back-quick-on-transition D perimeter player?

It's a fair question, but so far his coaches have consistently used him in the latter fashion.

Let's return to the comparison between Sullinger and Green from up above.  Both grabbed about 60% of the rebound chances they got.  But a larger portion of Sullinger's chances were contested: Some 46% compared to just 24.2% for Green.   There is no guarantee that if they switched places that Green wrestles some of those away inside and thus maybe he wouldn't maintain that 60% rate of grabbing his chances if he's down low where Sully plays.   On the flip side, maybe Sully is too slow to chase down some of the wide bouncing outside rebounds were Green usually plays.  So maybe his percentage drops too.

Players need to be deployed to best take advantage of their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses.  It is up to the coach make sure that happens.


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