Author Topic: Pounding the Ball and Rondo  (Read 5716 times)

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Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2014, 08:13:54 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.
The year we won the title, the ball flowed through Pierce.   Rondo was a role player sharing the court with 3 hall of fame players close to their peak.   Those first two seasons we won 60+ with the ball flowing through the Captain.

As Pierce regressed, they found a nice little pocket where Rondo's rise coincided with Paul's fall.  Rondo took over the playmaking in 09-10. 

Maybe you're right...  I think if we land another elite scorer in the Melo/Durant/Bron mold, we'll be best off having the ball flow through that player.  That's typically how champions are built in this league.   You want your scorers to have the ball.

It seems to me that the best teams generally have more than one guy who is elite at making plays with the ball in his hands--see James, Wade or Westbrook, Durant for examples.

You absolutely want a balance.  You need some good spot up shooters out on the floor with a guy like Rondo, but those guys don't necessarily have to be "hall of famers."

In 2010, as you point out, there was a nice "little pocket" where Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo both spent a lot of time with the ball in their respective hands, making plays. 

I don't buy this idea that a lot of fans seem to subscribe to that Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen are the only possible combination of players that Rajon Rondo can effectively play with.

Sure, if Rondo sticks around, Danny will need to put a team together that maximizes his skills and the skills of those players around him.  But, isn't that the case with any NBA player?  Are there any that don't have some weaknesses?
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
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Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2014, 08:23:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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whenever the topic of Rondo as being a ball-stopper comes up, i sometimes can't help but wonder if it's more because of that's how he NEEDS to play, rather than just a bad habit. Don't flame me just yet. I'll try as best i can to explain myself.

Rondo's best skill is seeing the floor and setting up his teammates. His worst skill is shooting. Let's first get that out of the way.

Now, for Rondo to be effective on offense, IMO he "needs the ball in his hands". This sort of phrase is usually reserved for scorers, but I think it's pretty true in Rondo's case. He can pass to anyone, anywhere, anytime he wants. But to be able to pass the ball, he needs to have the ball.

In situations where he's off the ball though, defenses don't have to respect him much because of his lack of shooting, which really kills spacing. His defender oftentimes plays like a "safety" on defense, allowing defenders to clog passing and driving lanes. The offense can swing the ball from side to side, but once it gets to Rondo, the defense is afforded a moment to set up again because they don't need to close out hard on him when he's on the outside. Rondo can cut to the basket, but since he generally has inept/inexperienced passers/playmakers as teammates, he likely won't get it in prime position to score either.

Thus, it's not unreasonable to think that the offense would be worse off if Rondo doesn't have the ball majority of the time he's on the floor. He can create truly magical moments with his passes, however in times that he doesn't, he just looks like he's pounding the ball for most of the shot clock. Either way, it's likely our offense's best alternative.

Am I on to something here?
Your explanation has been my main critique of Rondo for a few years now.   He's useless without the ball.  He's an offensive liability.  He can't shoot... that's a problem.   So although he's an elite distributor, when someone else has the ball defenses can basically just slack off Rondo and pressure the ball without the threat of Rondo getting open and knocking down a shot.   It's the crux of the argument for all the "Jeff Green and Rondo can't be effective at the same time".  It's the crux of the argument for "Rondo needs to be surrounded by quality shooters in order to be effective".  It's the crux of the argument for, "Boston often plays better without Rondo, because they have 5 offensive weapons on the floor instead of 4, can attack with a ball-sharing unpredictable offense"...

  It's the crux of a lot of arguments but it's a pretty overblown concept. Rondo's not a great shooter but he's been above the league average over the course of his 8 year career on his long 2 pointers. Players don't guard him closely when he doesn't have the ball. People notice this. Players don't guard most people closely when they're on the perimeter and don't have the ball. This escapes people's attention.

He's still a great, flawed player... and his positives outweigh his negatives.  If you have the right players and the right system, he can be effective.   When this team had Ray as an elite outside threat + Pierce as an all-around threat + KG as a mid-range threat + Bass as a mid-range threat + a system where Rondo held the ball exclusively and either penetrated in for an open layup (our bigs drawing defenders out of the paint) or kicking it out to a shooter... it allowed us to overachieve into the ECF.   You can develop a system tailor-made for Rondo.  Part of the reason we traded Davis for Bass was because Bass was a more reliable mid-range shooter than Davis... even though we had invested a ton of time in asking Davis to become a mid-range shooter.  You can win games with Rondo at the point as long as you are prepared to mask his flaws and prepared to have him quarterback exclusively.

  Yes, Rondo's been able to successfully run an offense with Ray Allen. Or Avery Bradley. And with Brandon Bass. Or Shaq, or Perk, or probably even Krstic. Generally whoever you put on the court with him, as long as they're fairly decent offensive players and they (and he) are healthy. You seem to be fairly excited that he struggles when he's surrounded by lottery talent. I'm more interested in the fact that you can surround him with good talent (not superstars) and get good results.

Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

   We'll see how that goes. Hopefully as well as it did with PP.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2014, 08:51:23 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Good points, Tim.  TP

At this point, I hope we keep Rondo and build a contender with him involved.  I like having continuity with our 2008 glory days.  Hope we bring back Pierce as well.   Especially if we land Wiggins/Parker... would love for Pierce to mentor the youngin and continue the legacy of this Celtics family.


Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2014, 09:08:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.
The year we won the title, the ball flowed through Pierce.   Rondo was a role player sharing the court with 3 hall of fame players close to their peak.   Those first two seasons we won 60+ with the ball flowing through the Captain.

As Pierce regressed, they found a nice little pocket where Rondo's rise coincided with Paul's fall.  Rondo took over the playmaking in 09-10. 


  You're off by about a year and a half. Rondo started controlling the ball more in the 2008 playoffs and then offense flowed progressively more through him after that. During the 2008 season Rondo had an assist% of 28 and PP was at 22. In the playoffs PP's number stayed steady but Rondo's went up to 36. For reference, Rondo's ast% of 28 during the season was 30th in the league, an ast% of 36 would have been 13th. So his playoff ast% was higher than the number for any single player on over half the teams during that regular season. By the 2009 season Rondo's ast% was up to 40 while PP's was all the way down to 16, and dropped further still during the playoffs. Pierce's usage rate and assist percentage were both lower in the 2009 playoffs than they were during the 2008 playoffs despite KG being out of the lineup.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2014, 09:10:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Good points, Tim.  TP

At this point, I hope we keep Rondo and build a contender with him involved.  I like having continuity with our 2008 glory days.  Hope we bring back Pierce as well.   Especially if we land Wiggins/Parker... would love for Pierce to mentor the youngin and continue the legacy of this Celtics family.

   That would be cool. He'd be our best backup wing in recent memory.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2014, 10:32:15 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

On what do you base that assertion?   What, exactly do you mean by 'share the ball offense'?

His college offense at Butler?   

How is that really relevant to what he'll run in the NBA?

Stevens runs a motion offense.  That doesn't necessarily mean a 'share the ball' offense (whatever that is).

Stevens has stated admiration for the Spurs system.  If he truly strives to emulate the Spurs' motion offense, what has that to do with 'share the ball'?
Btw, I read your article.  I don't think I've ever jumped on the Rondo "pound the ball" train.  I don't think he wastes possessions.  I just think that he needs the ball to be effective and the team is forced to give Rondo the ball on most possessions. 

Checking the chart in your article... doesn't it basically point to this?

He's at the top in touches/min, %pass, and %touchAssOp ... doesn't that basically support the criticism that we have an unbalanced and predictable offense that seems to flow through Rondo exclusively when he's playing? 

Seems to support the idea that we rarely run the ball through anyone else.  Granted, we didn't really have the talent this season to run the ball through... so whatever.

No, the chart does NOT point to this, unless you think that Tony Parker ALSO is incompatible with running a motion offense because he 'needs the ball in his hands'.

When on the floor both Tony and Rajon have the ball in their hands 20-23% of the time.   Assuming their minutes split roughly evenly between offense and defense, then on the offensive end BOTH these guys have the ball in their hand rouglhy 40-46% of the time their team is on offense.

And the fact is, Tony actually HAS decreased his ball dominance slightly this year over the prior few years.  His touches/per game and ball possession time were slightly higher in prior years.

If Rondo is incompatible with running the motion offense because he supposedly needs to control the ball too much, then so is Tony Parker.  That logic doesn't match reality.

The %pass and %touchAssOp numbers do not point to a problem in the offense at all -- especially when you add the two facts that he's (a) generating slightly more total shots per touch (whether by himself or by one of his 4 floor mates) than other PGs and (b) shots his teammates are taking off his passes are WAY more efficient (49%) than their shots not assisted by Rondo (under 42%).

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Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2014, 10:37:25 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.
The year we won the title, the ball flowed through Pierce.   Rondo was a role player sharing the court with 3 hall of fame players close to their peak.   Those first two seasons we won 60+ with the ball flowing through the Captain.

As Pierce regressed, they found a nice little pocket where Rondo's rise coincided with Paul's fall.  Rondo took over the playmaking in 09-10. 


  You're off by about a year and a half. Rondo started controlling the ball more in the 2008 playoffs and then offense flowed progressively more through him after that. During the 2008 season Rondo had an assist% of 28 and PP was at 22. In the playoffs PP's number stayed steady but Rondo's went up to 36. For reference, Rondo's ast% of 28 during the season was 30th in the league, an ast% of 36 would have been 13th. So his playoff ast% was higher than the number for any single player on over half the teams during that regular season. By the 2009 season Rondo's ast% was up to 40 while PP's was all the way down to 16, and dropped further still during the playoffs. Pierce's usage rate and assist percentage were both lower in the 2009 playoffs than they were during the 2008 playoffs despite KG being out of the lineup.

Yes - though I think the trend towards Rondo having a higher and higher share of the AST% actually started a little before those playoffs.  Rondo's assists rose to 6.3 per game in April of that year and stayed at 6.6 per during that playoff run and from that point Doc never looked back from having Rondo control the offense.
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Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2014, 11:21:07 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.
The year we won the title, the ball flowed through Pierce.   Rondo was a role player sharing the court with 3 hall of fame players close to their peak.   Those first two seasons we won 60+ with the ball flowing through the Captain.

As Pierce regressed, they found a nice little pocket where Rondo's rise coincided with Paul's fall.  Rondo took over the playmaking in 09-10. 


  You're off by about a year and a half. Rondo started controlling the ball more in the 2008 playoffs and then offense flowed progressively more through him after that. During the 2008 season Rondo had an assist% of 28 and PP was at 22. In the playoffs PP's number stayed steady but Rondo's went up to 36. For reference, Rondo's ast% of 28 during the season was 30th in the league, an ast% of 36 would have been 13th. So his playoff ast% was higher than the number for any single player on over half the teams during that regular season. By the 2009 season Rondo's ast% was up to 40 while PP's was all the way down to 16, and dropped further still during the playoffs. Pierce's usage rate and assist percentage were both lower in the 2009 playoffs than they were during the 2008 playoffs despite KG being out of the lineup.

Assists are hardly an accurate measurement of ball possession, since they make up a small percentage of the actual movement of the basketball.

Nor is a sabremetric stat that is, by definition, an estimate.

These statistics are a red herring.

So we can move this discussion out of the "nothing but spin" zone, here is the Internet definition of assist percentage. Note the word "estimate."

"Assist Percentage (available since the 1964-65 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor. "
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 11:42:36 AM by CoachBo »
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2014, 11:51:35 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Coachbo I suggest you look at mmmmmm's post using the sportsvu camera data that actually tracks how long a player touches the ball, how often they touch it, how often they pass it, etc, etc.

The camera's track things on the court quantitatively and are direct measures instead of just assist percentage.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2014, 11:59:51 AM »

Offline Galeto

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

On what do you base that assertion?   What, exactly do you mean by 'share the ball offense'?

His college offense at Butler?   

How is that really relevant to what he'll run in the NBA?

Stevens runs a motion offense.  That doesn't necessarily mean a 'share the ball' offense (whatever that is).

Stevens has stated admiration for the Spurs system.  If he truly strives to emulate the Spurs' motion offense, what has that to do with 'share the ball'?
Btw, I read your article.  I don't think I've ever jumped on the Rondo "pound the ball" train.  I don't think he wastes possessions.  I just think that he needs the ball to be effective and the team is forced to give Rondo the ball on most possessions. 

Checking the chart in your article... doesn't it basically point to this?

He's at the top in touches/min, %pass, and %touchAssOp ... doesn't that basically support the criticism that we have an unbalanced and predictable offense that seems to flow through Rondo exclusively when he's playing? 

Seems to support the idea that we rarely run the ball through anyone else.  Granted, we didn't really have the talent this season to run the ball through... so whatever.

I think Rondo's overwhelming ball possession results from the extreme latitude he's been given starting in 2010. I re-watched more than handful of games from 2008 and Rondo simply didn't have the ball as much because he gave it up.  He didn't have the cachet as a second year player to pound the ball so whether or not the pass was meaningful, Rondo usually passed the ball within five seconds of crossing half court.  He simply had to.  This would set off a chain of ball movement.  It was really beautiful basketball to watch.  Sure PP, KG and Ray then slowed down but they still remained very good players for years afterward.  Almost 90 percent of teams didn't have shot creators like those three after 2008 and most of those teams still managed to not have their point guard dribble the air out of the ball.  The offensive results didn't support letting Rondo monopolize the ball either.

The argument that the ball needs to be in Rondo's ball so much because no one else can create is bonkers.  There doesn't have to be five playmakers on the court to move the ball.  Take the freaking Spurs starting lineup.  Danny Green is mostly a spot up shooter with very bland pick and roll skills.  Leonard is a better shot maker than Green but not a better shot creator.  Duncan is a great all-around offensive big but so was Garnett.  Tiago is a skilled big but not a Marc Gasol.  Despite all that, the ball isn't in Parker's hands from 15 seconds every possession.  They tire out the defense with constant ball and player movement. 

In 2008, they hid Rondo's shooting deficiencies but parking him in the corner a lot where his defender can't shrink the floor as much and by Rondo himself cutting off the ball.  Neither of those things happen anymore.  If Rondo gives up the ball, he usually stands around the top of the floor which creates major spacing issues in the middle of the floor for post ups and drives.  And heaven forbid a point guard move off the ball.  I think a lot of this has to do with Rondo's status.  He's a top point guard in this league and those players don't stand in the corner like role players and they're the ones picking out cutters, not doing the cutting.

Personally I'm eager for the Rondo era to be over.  Is he effective individually and talented?  Yes but I hate his style of basketball and if the Celtics manage to take someone like Exum, Parker or Wiggins, I don't want to see him standing around watching Rondo pound the ball, creating 15 foot jumpers.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2014, 12:06:16 PM »

Offline cltc5

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I think i posted in hear already, but yes, Rondo slows the game down.  Funny that last year and the year before the complaint was that KG and Pierce were too slow gettin up the court, which they were.  This year Rondo is slow, follwed by stand around Jeff Green.  We played our best this year when we ran the ball and moved it around.  Rondo completely breaks that chemistry.  I hope we trade him for some nice assests becasue I'm ready to see this team move forward in youth.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2014, 03:21:53 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The argument that the ball needs to be in Rondo's ball so much because no one else can create is bonkers.  There doesn't have to be five playmakers on the court to move the ball.  Take the freaking Spurs starting lineup.  Danny Green is mostly a spot up shooter with very bland pick and roll skills.  Leonard is a better shot maker than Green but not a better shot creator.  Duncan is a great all-around offensive big but so was Garnett.  Tiago is a skilled big but not a Marc Gasol.  Despite all that, the ball isn't in Parker's hands from 15 seconds every possession. They tire out the defense with constant ball and player movement. 


If you'd read my article you'd know that each time the ball is in Parker's hands, it stays in his possession, on average, just under 5 seconds (4.82s to be exact).   About 14 hundredths of a second less than how long Rondo holds it.

You'd also know that while he is on the offensive end of the floor, the ball is in Parker's hands about 41% of the time.   If a possession takes 20 seconds, then that means it will have been in Parker's hands, on average, a little over 8 seconds.    On the Celtics, with Rondo, the numbers would be just a little higher, around 45% and about 9 seconds.

The point is:  Your conception of how the Spurs offense works is perhaps a little bit at odds with reality.

The 'motion offense' is about player motion.  It isn't really necessarily about ball movement.    Parker controls the ball just as much as any typical ball-dominant point-guard.
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Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2014, 07:27:09 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.
The year we won the title, the ball flowed through Pierce.   Rondo was a role player sharing the court with 3 hall of fame players close to their peak.   Those first two seasons we won 60+ with the ball flowing through the Captain.

As Pierce regressed, they found a nice little pocket where Rondo's rise coincided with Paul's fall.  Rondo took over the playmaking in 09-10. 


  You're off by about a year and a half. Rondo started controlling the ball more in the 2008 playoffs and then offense flowed progressively more through him after that. During the 2008 season Rondo had an assist% of 28 and PP was at 22. In the playoffs PP's number stayed steady but Rondo's went up to 36. For reference, Rondo's ast% of 28 during the season was 30th in the league, an ast% of 36 would have been 13th. So his playoff ast% was higher than the number for any single player on over half the teams during that regular season. By the 2009 season Rondo's ast% was up to 40 while PP's was all the way down to 16, and dropped further still during the playoffs. Pierce's usage rate and assist percentage were both lower in the 2009 playoffs than they were during the 2008 playoffs despite KG being out of the lineup.

Assists are hardly an accurate measurement of ball possession, since they make up a small percentage of the actual movement of the basketball.

  Of course it's not a measurement of ball possession. I never said it was. It's a bi-product of Rondo possessing the ball more. We weren't talking about ball possession anyways.

So we can move this discussion out of the "nothing but spin" zone, here is the Internet definition of assist percentage. Note the word "estimate."

"Assist Percentage (available since the 1964-65 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor. "

   Congrats on finding the definition. One would assume you're touting the word "estimate" based on the assumption that the estimate has an implied "wild" in front of it.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2014, 07:33:57 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

On what do you base that assertion?   What, exactly do you mean by 'share the ball offense'?

His college offense at Butler?   

How is that really relevant to what he'll run in the NBA?

Stevens runs a motion offense.  That doesn't necessarily mean a 'share the ball' offense (whatever that is).

Stevens has stated admiration for the Spurs system.  If he truly strives to emulate the Spurs' motion offense, what has that to do with 'share the ball'?
Btw, I read your article.  I don't think I've ever jumped on the Rondo "pound the ball" train.  I don't think he wastes possessions.  I just think that he needs the ball to be effective and the team is forced to give Rondo the ball on most possessions. 

Checking the chart in your article... doesn't it basically point to this?

He's at the top in touches/min, %pass, and %touchAssOp ... doesn't that basically support the criticism that we have an unbalanced and predictable offense that seems to flow through Rondo exclusively when he's playing? 

Seems to support the idea that we rarely run the ball through anyone else.  Granted, we didn't really have the talent this season to run the ball through... so whatever.

I think Rondo's overwhelming ball possession results from the extreme latitude he's been given starting in 2010. I re-watched more than handful of games from 2008 and Rondo simply didn't have the ball as much because he gave it up.  He didn't have the cachet as a second year player to pound the ball so whether or not the pass was meaningful, Rondo usually passed the ball within five seconds of crossing half court.  He simply had to.  This would set off a chain of ball movement.  It was really beautiful basketball to watch.  Sure PP, KG and Ray then slowed down but they still remained very good players for years afterward.  Almost 90 percent of teams didn't have shot creators like those three after 2008 and most of those teams still managed to not have their point guard dribble the air out of the ball.  The offensive results didn't support letting Rondo monopolize the ball either.

The argument that the ball needs to be in Rondo's ball so much because no one else can create is bonkers.  There doesn't have to be five playmakers on the court to move the ball.  Take the freaking Spurs starting lineup.  Danny Green is mostly a spot up shooter with very bland pick and roll skills.  Leonard is a better shot maker than Green but not a better shot creator.  Duncan is a great all-around offensive big but so was Garnett.  Tiago is a skilled big but not a Marc Gasol.  Despite all that, the ball isn't in Parker's hands from 15 seconds every possession.  They tire out the defense with constant ball and player movement. 

In 2008, they hid Rondo's shooting deficiencies but parking him in the corner a lot where his defender can't shrink the floor as much and by Rondo himself cutting off the ball.  Neither of those things happen anymore.  If Rondo gives up the ball, he usually stands around the top of the floor which creates major spacing issues in the middle of the floor for post ups and drives.  And heaven forbid a point guard move off the ball.  I think a lot of this has to do with Rondo's status.  He's a top point guard in this league and those players don't stand in the corner like role players and they're the ones picking out cutters, not doing the cutting.


  It wasn't that unusual for Rondo to pass the ball to one of the other players and go to the corner this year. He frequently went back to the middle later in the play but he did that more often that he stood around at the top of the floor after he passed the ball.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2014, 08:31:11 PM »

Offline blink

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Good points, Tim.  TP

At this point, I hope we keep Rondo and build a contender with him involved.  I like having continuity with our 2008 glory days.  Hope we bring back Pierce as well.   Especially if we land Wiggins/Parker... would love for Pierce to mentor the youngin and continue the legacy of this Celtics family.

I would love this to happen too.  PP comes back as 6th man / mentor at a hometown discount to help turn the tide of the rebuild.