Author Topic: Pounding the Ball and Rondo  (Read 5714 times)

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Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« on: April 15, 2014, 01:22:26 PM »

Offline LilRip

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whenever the topic of Rondo as being a ball-stopper comes up, i sometimes can't help but wonder if it's more because of that's how he NEEDS to play, rather than just a bad habit. Don't flame me just yet. I'll try as best i can to explain myself.

Rondo's best skill is seeing the floor and setting up his teammates. His worst skill is shooting. Let's first get that out of the way.

Now, for Rondo to be effective on offense, IMO he "needs the ball in his hands". This sort of phrase is usually reserved for scorers, but I think it's pretty true in Rondo's case. He can pass to anyone, anywhere, anytime he wants. But to be able to pass the ball, he needs to have the ball.

In situations where he's off the ball though, defenses don't have to respect him much because of his lack of shooting, which really kills spacing. His defender oftentimes plays like a "safety" on defense, allowing defenders to clog passing and driving lanes. The offense can swing the ball from side to side, but once it gets to Rondo, the defense is afforded a moment to set up again because they don't need to close out hard on him when he's on the outside. Rondo can cut to the basket, but since he generally has inept/inexperienced passers/playmakers as teammates, he likely won't get it in prime position to score either.

Thus, it's not unreasonable to think that the offense would be worse off if Rondo doesn't have the ball majority of the time he's on the floor. He can create truly magical moments with his passes, however in times that he doesn't, he just looks like he's pounding the ball for most of the shot clock. Either way, it's likely our offense's best alternative.

Am I on to something here?

- LilRip

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 03:19:35 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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On a team like the Pacers, last years celtics, rockets, Heat, or Knicks Rondo would be a huge plus. On a rebuilding team with no elite spot up shooters and legitimate players Rondo is a pretty big minus.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 03:27:57 PM »

Offline cltc5

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On a team like the Pacers, last years celtics, rockets, Heat, or Knicks Rondo would be a huge plus. On a rebuilding team with no elite spot up shooters and legitimate players Rondo is a pretty big minus.

Yep. Rondo's better on a team that has good chemisty and knows how to find their own shots.  Because Rondo has been here and is the starting PG, he demands the ball by default so eveything has to flow through him instead of moving cohesivly through all the players.  Which is why we played so well in the beginning of the year becausee we were moving the ball together as a unit instead of standing around again waiting for one guy to make the decision.  I'm a big proponent of moving Rondo next year so the team can gel with a new PG that will flow within the offense in stead of being the offense.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 06:21:34 PM »

Offline BballTim

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whenever the topic of Rondo as being a ball-stopper comes up, i sometimes can't help but wonder if it's more because of that's how he NEEDS to play, rather than just a bad habit. Don't flame me just yet. I'll try as best i can to explain myself.

Rondo's best skill is seeing the floor and setting up his teammates. His worst skill is shooting. Let's first get that out of the way.

Now, for Rondo to be effective on offense, IMO he "needs the ball in his hands". This sort of phrase is usually reserved for scorers, but I think it's pretty true in Rondo's case. He can pass to anyone, anywhere, anytime he wants. But to be able to pass the ball, he needs to have the ball.

In situations where he's off the ball though, defenses don't have to respect him much because of his lack of shooting, which really kills spacing. His defender oftentimes plays like a "safety" on defense, allowing defenders to clog passing and driving lanes. The offense can swing the ball from side to side, but once it gets to Rondo, the defense is afforded a moment to set up again because they don't need to close out hard on him when he's on the outside. Rondo can cut to the basket, but since he generally has inept/inexperienced passers/playmakers as teammates, he likely won't get it in prime position to score either.

Thus, it's not unreasonable to think that the offense would be worse off if Rondo doesn't have the ball majority of the time he's on the floor. He can create truly magical moments with his passes, however in times that he doesn't, he just looks like he's pounding the ball for most of the shot clock. Either way, it's likely our offense's best alternative.

Am I on to something here?

  It's true the team's usually better off with Rondo having the ball, just like it generally has been since 2009 or so, since he's always been the best ball-handler and passer on the team and we don't have players that excel at creating their own shot (and haven't for a while). The whole "defenses ignore Rondo" is pretty overblown. Most defenders give most offensive players space when they're on the perimeter and don't have the ball. You could argue that teams give Rondo slightly more space than other players and they get a smallish advantage from that but the notion that defenders stick close to the rest of the Celtics yet ignore Rondo and "play free safety" isn't very realistic.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 06:35:08 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Rondo played better last night.  He didn't pound the ball as usual (he wasn't barking at others either). He was passing the ball quicker and evenly distributing. KO had a big night thx to some of his passes. He also had a few nice layups and late game mid range jump shot

not sure if he heard what Tommy said or saw how the team played differently under pressey, but i hope he keeps it up. This is the way i like seeing him play and its better for the current lineup also

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2014, 06:54:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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On a team like the Pacers, last years celtics, rockets, Heat, or Knicks Rondo would be a huge plus. On a rebuilding team with no elite spot up shooters and legitimate players Rondo is a pretty big minus.

Yep. Rondo's better on a team that has good chemisty and knows how to find their own shots.  Because Rondo has been here and is the starting PG, he demands the ball by default so eveything has to flow through him instead of moving cohesivly through all the players.  Which is why we played so well in the beginning of the year becausee we were moving the ball together as a unit instead of standing around again waiting for one guy to make the decision.  I'm a big proponent of moving Rondo next year so the team can gel with a new PG that will flow within the offense in stead of being the offense.

   I remember posting something a month or two into the season about how our percentage of assisted baskets was, at the time, one of the 5-6 lowest numbers in the league over the last 10 years. The fact that people thought that was a cohesive, flowing offense is amazing.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2014, 11:46:26 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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If we have a team exclusively of players who aren't at their best with the ball in their hands, then it's not likely that we'll have a very good team. 

A good NBA team needs at least one, preferably more than one, player who can break down the defense off the dribble and make plays. 

People have been talking about a list that's out there somewhere of the players in the league that control the ball the most.  I haven't seen that list, but I would love to see it if someone could post it.

I'd guess that most of the players at the top of that list are players that would be considered elite players. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 07:16:29 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I tried to do a detailed analysis on this topic.  Folk's may or may not find it interesting:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/4/17/5625374/pounding-the-ball
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 07:28:56 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I tried to do a detailed analysis on this topic.  Folk's may or may not find it interesting:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/4/17/5625374/pounding-the-ball

TP, mmmm.  Good work. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 07:40:00 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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whenever the topic of Rondo as being a ball-stopper comes up, i sometimes can't help but wonder if it's more because of that's how he NEEDS to play, rather than just a bad habit. Don't flame me just yet. I'll try as best i can to explain myself.

Rondo's best skill is seeing the floor and setting up his teammates. His worst skill is shooting. Let's first get that out of the way.

Now, for Rondo to be effective on offense, IMO he "needs the ball in his hands". This sort of phrase is usually reserved for scorers, but I think it's pretty true in Rondo's case. He can pass to anyone, anywhere, anytime he wants. But to be able to pass the ball, he needs to have the ball.

In situations where he's off the ball though, defenses don't have to respect him much because of his lack of shooting, which really kills spacing. His defender oftentimes plays like a "safety" on defense, allowing defenders to clog passing and driving lanes. The offense can swing the ball from side to side, but once it gets to Rondo, the defense is afforded a moment to set up again because they don't need to close out hard on him when he's on the outside. Rondo can cut to the basket, but since he generally has inept/inexperienced passers/playmakers as teammates, he likely won't get it in prime position to score either.

Thus, it's not unreasonable to think that the offense would be worse off if Rondo doesn't have the ball majority of the time he's on the floor. He can create truly magical moments with his passes, however in times that he doesn't, he just looks like he's pounding the ball for most of the shot clock. Either way, it's likely our offense's best alternative.

Am I on to something here?
Your explanation has been my main critique of Rondo for a few years now.   He's useless without the ball.  He's an offensive liability.  He can't shoot... that's a problem.   So although he's an elite distributor, when someone else has the ball defenses can basically just slack off Rondo and pressure the ball without the threat of Rondo getting open and knocking down a shot.   It's the crux of the argument for all the "Jeff Green and Rondo can't be effective at the same time".  It's the crux of the argument for "Rondo needs to be surrounded by quality shooters in order to be effective".  It's the crux of the argument for, "Boston often plays better without Rondo, because they have 5 offensive weapons on the floor instead of 4, can attack with a ball-sharing unpredictable offense"...

He's still a great, flawed player... and his positives outweigh his negatives.  If you have the right players and the right system, he can be effective.   When this team had Ray as an elite outside threat + Pierce as an all-around threat + KG as a mid-range threat + Bass as a mid-range threat + a system where Rondo held the ball exclusively and either penetrated in for an open layup (our bigs drawing defenders out of the paint) or kicking it out to a shooter... it allowed us to overachieve into the ECF.   You can develop a system tailor-made for Rondo.  Part of the reason we traded Davis for Bass was because Bass was a more reliable mid-range shooter than Davis... even though we had invested a ton of time in asking Davis to become a mid-range shooter.  You can win games with Rondo at the point as long as you are prepared to mask his flaws and prepared to have him quarterback exclusively.

Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters. 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:45:03 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2014, 07:49:46 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2014, 07:57:42 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

I think that if he could effectively share the court with Paul Pierce, he can effectively share the court with Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker.
The year we won the title, the ball flowed through Pierce.   Rondo was a role player sharing the court with 3 hall of fame players close to their peak.   Those first two seasons we won 60+ with the ball flowing through the Captain.

As Pierce regressed, they found a nice little pocket where Rondo's rise coincided with Paul's fall.  Rondo took over the playmaking in 09-10. 

Maybe you're right...  I think if we land another elite scorer in the Melo/Durant/Bron mold, we'll be best off having the ball flow through that player.  That's typically how champions are built in this league.   You want your scorers to have the ball.   

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2014, 07:58:18 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

On what do you base that assertion?   What, exactly do you mean by 'share the ball offense'?

His college offense at Butler?   

How is that really relevant to what he'll run in the NBA?

Stevens runs a motion offense.  That doesn't necessarily mean a 'share the ball' offense (whatever that is).

Stevens has stated admiration for the Spurs system.  If he truly strives to emulate the Spurs' motion offense, what has that to do with 'share the ball'? 
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2014, 08:03:17 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Stevens is known for his ball-sharing offense... and Rondo is a player that really doesn't fit with that.  One of them will need to adapt or the relationship will likely come to an end.  If we land an elite shot-creating prospect in the draft like Wiggins/Parker (we can only dream), I'm not sure how he'll fit with Rondo.  Those elite scorers usually are effective when the ball is run through them and they are surrounded with quality shooters.

On what do you base that assertion?   What, exactly do you mean by 'share the ball offense'?

His college offense at Butler?   

How is that really relevant to what he'll run in the NBA?

Stevens runs a motion offense.  That doesn't necessarily mean a 'share the ball' offense (whatever that is).

Stevens has stated admiration for the Spurs system.  If he truly strives to emulate the Spurs' motion offense, what has that to do with 'share the ball'?
Btw, I read your article.  I don't think I've ever jumped on the Rondo "pound the ball" train.  I don't think he wastes possessions.  I just think that he needs the ball to be effective and the team is forced to give Rondo the ball on most possessions. 

Checking the chart in your article... doesn't it basically point to this?

He's at the top in touches/min, %pass, and %touchAssOp ... doesn't that basically support the criticism that we have an unbalanced and predictable offense that seems to flow through Rondo exclusively when he's playing? 

Seems to support the idea that we rarely run the ball through anyone else.  Granted, we didn't really have the talent this season to run the ball through... so whatever.   

Re: Pounding the Ball and Rondo
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2014, 08:03:44 PM »

Offline IlCapitano

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I tried to do a detailed analysis on this topic.  Folk's may or may not find it interesting:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2014/4/17/5625374/pounding-the-ball
Fantastic analysis. TP
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