Author Topic: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...  (Read 14363 times)

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Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 11:23:40 AM »

Offline csfansince60s

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So, you want to see the team actively throw the remaining three games?  Miss shots on purpose?  Give up on crucial defensive possessions? 

For the future.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Fair enough.  I refuse to go there.  Apparently that makes me a short-sighted moron.

Me too, Brother...me too.

So,  I guess that I can tell my two young sons to go ahead and fix games (miss shots, play lackadaisical, etc).....so their (potential) future NBA team can get a desired spot in the draft......

.....a draft where, even though there are some talented players - there is absolutely no guarantee that ANY of them will pan out.

That's why  - as I posted in a different thread - if we get Wiggins I'd ship him to CHI for Noah or POR for LaMarcus, or Minny for Kevin - give me a PROVEN star any day of the week.

I'd say - "Hey Wiggins glad to have you in Green - but you're going to Minny for KLove. We just traded you."


That's just me.


....and that's me, too, but then that begs the question, "Are those teams more likely to part with those players, if we can offer them Wiggins/Embiid/Parker, or Aaron, "role player at best", Gordon or the like?


Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2014, 11:24:35 AM »

Offline Chief

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I'm sure the 1996-1997 Spurs regret tanking.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 11:31:12 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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TP to the OP hey I made a rhyme, TP to the OP.

I cannot believe we played last nights game as though we were going into the playoffs.

What a complete waste of a season.

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 11:31:15 AM »

Offline Schiller

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We're all Celtics fans, can't we just get along?  :-\

Personally, I am a "tanker", but I understand where people are coming from who do not support tanking. No reason for us to fight over it! Discussions, friendly banter, sure, but please no fighting.

One is not a short-sighted moron for not supporting tanking and one is not a fake fan because they root for losses this season.
"I'm cold-blooded!" - Paul Pierce

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2014, 11:42:49 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Getting tired of reading post like this

Like Celtics18 said, its mainly up to management to try to help the team tank not the coaches and the players. That is a disgrace and fines can be handed down by the league (or should be).

Ainge has said he feels this draft is not a big deal. It's not worth losing sleeping over. Over the summer and during the trade deadline, he could of made this team a complete skeleton, ensuring the 1st or 2nd pick. But he didn't. So if anyone is to be blamed for a few wins that decrease our chances at a top 3 pick, it's Ainge.

People also have to consider that if

- we draft a top pick, they are not likely going to help us be relevant until a few years later
- He is worried about having Rondo healthy , building around Rondo. And it's a risk for Rondo to stay and wait for a rookie to get it together so quickly
- drafting 3rd or 6th is not going to matter a whole lot, if you are going to trade a pick. For some team Marcus Smart might be much important to move fwd than Parker, if they already have a sf.
- I can see how if we keep Rondo and the Pick(s), some issues we have at hand might not be resolved.   I see this being the least likely thing that happens by draft night.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 02:02:09 PM by triboy16f »

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2014, 12:12:16 PM »

Offline ederson

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Isn't that fairly easy to assess? Take the best players in the NBA (James, Durant, Paul, etc.) and look where they were taken in the draft.

i don`t think it is a surprise that franchise players are drafted in the lottery (top 3-4)
but i would be interesting to look at what these players have accomplised with the team that drafted them vs their next team(s)

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2014, 12:44:49 PM »

Offline celticdog

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Rule number 1:  Dont trust Danny Ainge.  Even if you are a fan.  Every communication is a potential lie.  Every opinion is potential misdirection.  Even when he tells the truth he lies like Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct haha.

Danny says this draft is nothing special could mean he thinks its nothing special.  Could also mean hes going to pull some fancy tricks out of his sleeve.

Fireworks probably means standing pat.  Only fireworks will be my pounding hangover after every single game '14-'15.

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2014, 12:54:48 PM »

Offline Spicoli

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I've been pulling for them to lose games all season for better draft position but there is no predicting when Jeff "Inconsistent" Green or Avery "I've gotta get mine" Bradley both play well and spoil things for the tank like they did last night. This team as currently constructed is just not as bad as Philly, Utah, or Orlando. I'm really surprised they even have a chance to finish in the top 4 for lottery seeding while having Rondo, Bass, Green, Sullinger, and Humphries on the roster. If they win tonight against Cleveland i will be done watching them for the year and just hope they get some lucky ping pong balls.

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2014, 01:16:57 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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I saw that win last night and felt sick. The crowd was happy, understandably, but the NESN guy was just as excited. SMH and i thought we only had to worry about that sixers game.
The Nets will finish with the worst record and the Celtics will end up with the 4th pick.

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--------------------------------------------------------

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Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2014, 01:22:27 PM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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I'm just happy we were able to win again. Extended losing streaks are a the hardest thing to deal with.
Banner 18 please 😍

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2014, 01:38:17 PM »

Offline KingChre

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So, you want to see the team actively throw the remaining three games?  Miss shots on purpose?  Give up on crucial defensive possessions? 

For the future.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Fair enough.  I refuse to go there.  Apparently that makes me a short-sighted moron.

Me too, Brother...me too.

So,  I guess that I can tell my two young sons to go ahead and fix games (miss shots, play lackadaisical, etc).....so their (potential) future NBA team can get a desired spot in the draft......

.....a draft where, even though there are some talented players - there is absolutely no guarantee that ANY of them will pan out.

That's why  - as I posted in a different thread - if we get Wiggins I'd ship him to CHI for Noah or POR for LaMarcus, or Minny for Kevin - give me a PROVEN star any day of the week.

I'd say - "Hey Wiggins glad to have you in Green - but you're going to Minny for KLove. We just traded you."

That's just me.

Unless your two young sons are playing for a lottery-bound NBA team, I don't see the correlation. The two situations could not be any different. Your later point regarding trading Wiggins/et all for an established player is a curious one as well. How do you anticipate getting Wiggins with the 5th or 6th (or worse) pick?

In my opinion, the real value for Ainge in having the top-4 pick is the threat of keeping that player and building around him. There seems to be a consensus about the top-4 and then a drop off from there. I would assume most of the other GMs around the league will know that Ainge is unlikely to keep a player drafted outside of the top-4, which deflates his trade market. Owning one of the top-4 picks in this draft allows him to either keep the player or let the trade market come to him if someone wants to over pay. Either way, an extra win or two over the next week drastically affects those opportunities for little to no long term benefit. From a simple business point of view, its simply not good value to win.

And just to go with your point, I would take it as a learning opportunity for your children that sometimes a step back can allow you to take two steps forward in life. This is one of those situations, it isn't a negative thing, its a building thing. I've enjoyed this season as much as any in the last few years because I feel like they are building a new house and just laid the foundation. That's how I view the losing, a necessary step back in order to take two big steps forward.
Looking at my gucci, and it's about that time...

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2014, 01:43:18 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Guys, we still have basically a 1/3 chance of a top 3 pick and a 10% chance of a #1 pick.  We're still in good shape.

Far more likely than not, the Celtics will end up with a bottom 5 record.  You can't ask for more than that.

As C18 points out, plenty of VERY, VERY good players have been taken in the top 10 but outside of the top 3.
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Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2014, 01:51:18 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Isn't that fairly easy to assess? Take the best players in the NBA (James, Durant, Paul, etc.) and look where they were taken in the draft.

i don`t think it is a surprise that franchise players are drafted in the lottery (top 3-4)
but i would be interesting to look at what these players have accomplised with the team that drafted them vs their next team(s)

Pfft.

Bad front offices put bad teams around good players all the time. DeMarcus Cousins is still on the Kings, after all.

If your front office is good, you build around your star and help him with complementary pieces -- Paul Pierce is the best example of that: for everyone that says that Kevin Love is gone from Minny, Pierce was significantly more vocal about how much his situation sucked and was terrible. Pierce stayed with the C's (obviously).

On the flip side, KG never wanted to leave Minnesota, until it was obvious that the Boston lineup was going to be the best thing for him. But he was adamant (loudly adamant) about staying with the TWolves.

Saying 'Cleveland Drafted LeBron and won exactly nothing' is A) disingenuous and B) more of a systemic failure within the Cavs organization than any fault with a high draft pick.

It seems to me that drafting a high pick is a much safer idea than waiting around for an upset superstar, especially since there don't seem to be many on the horizon in the next 2-3 years.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2014, 01:51:59 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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So, you want to see the team actively throw the remaining three games?  Miss shots on purpose?  Give up on crucial defensive possessions? 

For the future.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Fair enough.  I refuse to go there.  Apparently that makes me a short-sighted moron.

Me too, Brother...me too.

So,  I guess that I can tell my two young sons to go ahead and fix games (miss shots, play lackadaisical, etc).....so their (potential) future NBA team can get a desired spot in the draft......

.....a draft where, even though there are some talented players - there is absolutely no guarantee that ANY of them will pan out.

That's why  - as I posted in a different thread - if we get Wiggins I'd ship him to CHI for Noah or POR for LaMarcus, or Minny for Kevin - give me a PROVEN star any day of the week.

I'd say - "Hey Wiggins glad to have you in Green - but you're going to Minny for KLove. We just traded you."

That's just me.

Unless your two young sons are playing for a lottery-bound NBA team, I don't see the correlation. The two situations could not be any different. Your later point regarding trading Wiggins/et all for an established player is a curious one as well. How do you anticipate getting Wiggins with the 5th or 6th (or worse) pick?

In my opinion, the real value for Ainge in having the top-4 pick is the threat of keeping that player and building around him. There seems to be a consensus about the top-4 and then a drop off from there. I would assume most of the other GMs around the league will know that Ainge is unlikely to keep a player drafted outside of the top-4, which deflates his trade market. Owning one of the top-4 picks in this draft allows him to either keep the player or let the trade market come to him if someone wants to over pay. Either way, an extra win or two over the next week drastically affects those opportunities for little to no long term benefit. From a simple business point of view, its simply not good value to win.

And just to go with your point, I would take it as a learning opportunity for your children that sometimes a step back can allow you to take two steps forward in life. This is one of those situations, it isn't a negative thing, its a building thing. I've enjoyed this season as much as any in the last few years because I feel like they are building a new house and just laid the foundation. That's how I view the losing, a necessary step back in order to take two big steps forward.

The main problem with your whole point is that you are making a whole lot of grand proclamations based on some assumptions that have very little in the way of solid evidence to back them up. 

The most flawed assumption is taking it for granted that the "experts" know exactly which players are going to be the best players in this draft.  I know they scout a lot, they are diligent, they get paid to know who has more potential relative to the other players in the draft, and they do a good job of it.  The problem, however, is they are dealing in potential and they are dealing in assessing human beings.

They never get it right.  At least up until now, they haven't.  There has never been a draft where the experts clearly knew going into it which players where going to be the best pros.  The closest was probably 2003, and even that one they didn't get fully right. 

So, pardon me if I refuse to panic over the loss of a couple of percentage points in the lottery chances in exchange for seeing my Celtics get some wins to close out a miserable season. 

I trust Ainge and his staff's talent evaluation, and I am hoping I can trust Brad Stevens' and his staff's ability to develop that talent.  To me, those two aspects are going to be more important moving forward than a couple of spots up or down in the draft.

 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2014, 02:00:30 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Just because the Pistons drafted Darko doesn't mean that 29 out of 30 teams wouldn't have taken Carmelo instead.


Surprising players happen all the time -- that's why they're called surprises. But you're essentially looking at a process that is so far ahead of where it was 10 years ago that to use what happened 10 years ago as a benchmark for 'the experts don't know what they're talking about' is silly.

Manu Ginobili was drafted with the 56th pick or something equally ridiculous because San Antonio were ahead of the curve in their international draft game. Darko was picked 3rd because he had one amazing workout. Exum is projected to go top 5 by almost everyone -- not because his agent has done a great job hyping him up, but because he has the potential to be the next Penny Hardaway, and everyone knows that because everyone's paying more than lip service to overseas play now... because of players like Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

I find it interesting that someone who was so optimistic about what was so obviously a bad basketball team is so pessimistic about the upcoming draft. My suspicion is that you're pushing back against all the people who've been rooting for losses all year by taking your frustrations out on anyone who's excited about the future. That's a shame.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.