Bill Simmons on Rondo

[LarBrd33]

Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 

RR's obsession with Sportscenter-worthy highlight assists is well-known to Celts fans of the last few years. Ditto for his incessant attempts to ballhawk on defense.  If he doesn't make the steal, his man is going to the rim for dunk, easy shot, or assist.  Those are hallmark symptoms of someone with Uncoachability Disease. 

Hard to comment about off-the-court stuff, since we, as fans, are rarely privy to what really goes on, but I think it's clear that he was AWOL in LA for his birthday day off.  As a Sacramento area resident, I can fully sympathize with RR for preferring to celebrate in LA, instead ( ), but he could have simply asked for, and likely received, permission to stay behind on his off-game.  The fact that he didn't speaks volumes about how he sees himself in relation to his coach and teammates.  I would bet that he wouldn't have dreamed of doing that if PP and KG were still around.

Finally, an uncoachable player may always be a "cancer" in your eyes, but I think that's an awfully explosive metaphor to use, even if the tumor in question is not benign...

After seeing the Heinsohn, Ainge and Simmons comments recently, I have to think that the Celts organization has already made the decision to move RR on to another team.  If they do, I will follow and cheer him, because in addition to his many flaws, he's also a genius player who QB'd us to a title and has provided Celts fans with many brilliant memories.  I'll never forget how he played the fourth quarter against Miami in the playoffs after a dislocated elbow - what an incredible competitor!  However, I think both RR and the Celts will be better served by a trade.  Imagine RR on the Rockets, or even the Lakers...

I enjoyed the drama of this post.  But at the end when you claimed RR "QB'd us to a title" didn't fit with the rest of the post's vibe.  Saying RR "QB'd us to a title" is like saying Perk carried us on his back.   Both were merely role players in 2008.

[BballTim]

Rajon Rondo is one of the best basketball passers of the last twenty years.  I'd honestly say in the top five, along with Johnson, Nash, Kidd, and Stockton.  That fact that this isn't recognized as skill more often really hurts my basketball sensibilities.

Obviously this wasn't intended to be any sort of a definitive list, but I'd put Jason 'White Chocolate' Williams on that list before at least half of those guys.

There's a guy who really is underrated, at least when it comes to passing.

Also, you're talking about Magic Johnson, right?

  My first thought was that he meant KJ, but then Magic was close to the time frame.

[Celtics18]

Rajon Rondo is one of the best basketball passers of the last twenty years.  I'd honestly say in the top five, along with Johnson, Nash, Kidd, and Stockton.  That fact that this isn't recognized as skill more often really hurts my basketball sensibilities.

Obviously this wasn't intended to be any sort of a definitive list, but I'd put Jason 'White Chocolate' Williams on that list before at least half of those guys.

There's a guy who really is underrated, at least when it comes to passing.

Also, you're talking about Magic Johnson, right?

  My first thought was that he meant KJ, but then Magic was close to the time frame.

I was talking about Magic, but KJ was definitely a nice passer as well. 

[get_banners]

I'm sometimes shocked by the Rondo sentiment on this blog. Nothing personal, but I'm really glad none of us on here run the Celtics. Rondo is still getting his legs back, which has had a major effect on his offense in the paint (he is shooting terribly inside), something that will be very different next year. He's also playing with pretty bad players, and an unbalanced roster at that (which was the plan - we weren't supposed to be good this year). He is easily one of the top 5 PGs in basketball, and now that his jumper is pretty decent, he could be devastating once he's 100% again (which should be next season). And...even though this is a lost season and he's coming back from an injury, we still want to dog him? Really? I mean, honestly, put CP3 on this team, coming off an ACL tear, and you'd get a pretty similar result. Rondo has moments of pounding the ball too much. This is a reasonable complaint. But keep in mind, he's playing with pretty bad talent...and he's still working his way back from injury...and he isn't familiar with most of these guys. If he is still doing that next year, we should be worried. I'm not concerned at all right now. If he's uncoachable, Stevens and Ainge are really lying like crazy about him. Bass, Green, and Wallace (who will criticize anyone) are lying like crazy about him. Doc, KG, and Paul are lying like crazy about him. That's...a lot of lying. I don't buy it at all. I think, once he's healthy, and has some better talent around him, Rondo is going to be a beast. And if he's not, then we can legitimately gripe about him before we trade him. But I don't see that happening.

[Sixth Man]

Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 

RR's obsession with Sportscenter-worthy highlight assists is well-known to Celts fans of the last few years. Ditto for his incessant attempts to ballhawk on defense.  If he doesn't make the steal, his man is going to the rim for dunk, easy shot, or assist.  Those are hallmark symptoms of someone with Uncoachability Disease. 

Hard to comment about off-the-court stuff, since we, as fans, are rarely privy to what really goes on, but I think it's clear that he was AWOL in LA for his birthday day off.  As a Sacramento area resident, I can fully sympathize with RR for preferring to celebrate in LA, instead ( ), but he could have simply asked for, and likely received, permission to stay behind on his off-game.  The fact that he didn't speaks volumes about how he sees himself in relation to his coach and teammates.  I would bet that he wouldn't have dreamed of doing that if PP and KG were still around.

Finally, an uncoachable player may always be a "cancer" in your eyes, but I think that's an awfully explosive metaphor to use, even if the tumor in question is not benign...

After seeing the Heinsohn, Ainge and Simmons comments recently, I have to think that the Celts organization has already made the decision to move RR on to another team.  If they do, I will follow and cheer him, because in addition to his many flaws, he's also a genius player who QB'd us to a title and has provided Celts fans with many brilliant memories.  I'll never forget how he played the fourth quarter against Miami in the playoffs after a dislocated elbow - what an incredible competitor!  However, I think both RR and the Celts will be better served by a trade.  Imagine RR on the Rockets, or even the Lakers...

I enjoyed the drama of this post.  But at the end when you claimed RR "QB'd us to a title" didn't fit with the rest of the post's vibe.  Saying RR "QB'd us to a title" is like saying Perk carried us on his back.   Both were merely role players in 2008.

I understand your objection, but I think there was a difference between RR's and Perk's roles on that team.  RR brought the ball up and initiated plays, but Perk, bless him, was our pitbull in the middle, a rim protector seemingly from some fascinating but antidiluvian era...

Glad you enjoyed the 'drama' in the post and I hope you're up for more in the future, as I'll do my best to entertain whilst stirring the pot.

[Sixth Man]

Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 

  Rondo doesn't take 12+ seconds to begin to initiate plays. That's a pretty wild exaggeration. And Doc goes to the Clips and CP spends the first few months of the season averaging 12 or so assists/game. If you're claiming he doesn't run a point guard-centric offense then the evidence doesn't back you up.

He doesn't take 12+ plus seconds on every offensive possession, but I've seen far too many instances when he does exactly that, to the detriment of our offensive flow AND execution.  This hasn't been a problem just this season, but also last season before the injury.

Assists per game stat is not necessarily an indication of whether or not a PG is, or is not, running a point guard-centric offense.  It may be a very strong indication in some instances, but it is far from being solely determinative, which I believe is what your statement implies.

[Sixth Man]

I'm sometimes shocked by the Rondo sentiment on this blog. Nothing personal, but I'm really glad none of us on here run the Celtics.

I agree with this as I too am extremely glad that neither you, I, nor anyone else here is running the Celtics...

[indeedproceed]

I'm sometimes shocked by the Rondo sentiment on this blog. Nothing personal, but I'm really glad none of us on here run the Celtics.

I agree with this as I too am extremely glad that neither you, I, nor anyone else here is running the Celtics...

Me too. The weight of the choices Danny makes, no thanks. Id trade Jeff Green for Asik yesterday if possible. Id move Sullinger, Olynyk and all our non-guaranteed contracts, and the whole swath of picks from Brookyln for Kevin Love, if possible. Id make the pick in this supposedly deep and vaunted draft taking BPA. And the franchise would be on a drastically different path.

Those are pipe dreams. Unlikely, probably impossible. But I don't have the foresight, nor the gumption to entertain pragmatic paths.

[get_banners]

I'm sometimes shocked by the Rondo sentiment on this blog. Nothing personal, but I'm really glad none of us on here run the Celtics.

I agree with this as I too am extremely glad that neither you, I, nor anyone else here is running the Celtics...

Ha...exactly.

[Rondo9]

Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 

  Rondo doesn't take 12+ seconds to begin to initiate plays. That's a pretty wild exaggeration. And Doc goes to the Clips and CP spends the first few months of the season averaging 12 or so assists/game. If you're claiming he doesn't run a point guard-centric offense then the evidence doesn't back you up.

He doesn't take 12+ plus seconds on every offensive possession, but I've seen far too many instances when he does exactly that, to the detriment of our offensive flow AND execution.  This hasn't been a problem just this season, but also last season before the injury.

Assists per game stat is not necessarily an indication of whether or not a PG is, or is not, running a point guard-centric offense.  It may be a very strong indication in some instances, but it is far from being solely determinative, which I believe is what your statement implies.

The Celtics didn't play that much better after Rondo went down last year.....

[Sixth Man]

Rondo is a great player - too bad he is uncoachable.

Based on what?

Won't implement a passing offense, walks the ball up the court, takes forever to initiate a play, constantly gambles on defense, frequently eschews the obvious and effective pass in favor of a "highlight" assist attempt, etc.  I think all this has been discussed (and argued over) to death here.  On the other hand, he has great athletic ability, rare court vision, superb passing skill, rare rebounding skill for a PG and has become a respectable jump shooter.  He has very high BBIQ, but doesn't always utilize it.  Superb competitior, also.

He is not nearly the player he should be, IMHO.  Oh, and by the way, he's a terrible FT shooter (but you already knew that...).

So he has pros & cons just like every other player in the league.  How does any of the above make him uncoachable, though?

When I think uncoachable, I think guys who are selfish, clash with teammates, fight with coaches, have a "get mine" mentality.  Generally, someone who would also be considered a "cancer".

Rondo's been in the league for 8 years now.  Sure, he's butted heads with both teammates & coaches at times but in a minor sense.   

In terms of what he's doing on the court?  I just don't see uncoachable.  This season has been a combination of coming back from injury and playing with a less than stellar supporting cast.  His play has been up & down and I don't think his skill set suits being THE guy but he's one helluva complementary player. 

I just have never seen "uncoachable" with the guy.   

Both Rivers and Stevens are avowed proponents of a passing offense (look at how the Clips play these days).  Rondo didn't play that way during the last few seasons under Doc and he has continued, when available, to pound the ball up the floor, taking 12, 14, 16 seconds to begin to initiate a play.  That might have worked most of the time with semi-fossilized but still great offensive options named Pierce, Garnett or Allen, but it's death on an offensively-challenged young squad.  How are young players going to improve on offense in that kind of an environment? 

  Rondo doesn't take 12+ seconds to begin to initiate plays. That's a pretty wild exaggeration. And Doc goes to the Clips and CP spends the first few months of the season averaging 12 or so assists/game. If you're claiming he doesn't run a point guard-centric offense then the evidence doesn't back you up.

He doesn't take 12+ plus seconds on every offensive possession, but I've seen far too many instances when he does exactly that, to the detriment of our offensive flow AND execution.  This hasn't been a problem just this season, but also last season before the injury.

Assists per game stat is not necessarily an indication of whether or not a PG is, or is not, running a point guard-centric offense.  It may be a very strong indication in some instances, but it is far from being solely determinative, which I believe is what your statement implies.

The Celtics didn't play that much better after Rondo went down last year.....

Didn't the Celts go on a winning streak after the injury last season?  And to boot, we played much better and more successful b-ball through to the end of the season.  Players who had been standing around on offense, as though mesmerized by RR's dribbling, started moving without the ball and then passing it around the arc to find high-percentage shots. 

In fairness, without RR's athletic ability at the point, we were exposed in the first-round blowout, but I think there is plenty of evidence from last season that RR's need to dominate the ball was a huge issue for us.

[Rondo9]

Yet they finished with a .500 record and got beat by the Knicks in the first round. The lack of a true point guard was glaring as the season wore down for them.

[BballTim]

Didn't the Celts go on a winning streak after the injury last season?  And to boot, we played much better and more successful b-ball through to the end of the season.  Players who had been standing around on offense, as though mesmerized by RR's dribbling, started moving without the ball and then passing it around the arc to find high-percentage shots. 

In fairness, without RR's athletic ability at the point, we were exposed in the first-round blowout, but I think there is plenty of evidence from last season that RR's need to dominate the ball was a huge issue for us.

  We went on a decent streak right after he went out, in no small part because we had a home-heavy stretch of games against pretty bad defensive teams and we drastically changed our offense mid-season. After that streak we weren't much different than we had been before. They'd swing the ball around the perimeter but that doesn't put the defense under pressure or create any opportunities on it's own, there wasn't noticeably more player movement, and the shots weren't higher percentage. As you noticed the offense fell apart without him in the playoffs, something that was predicted by many shortly after Rondo's injury.