Philly is just gross!

[Endless Paradise]

They've already been lackluster and irrelevant for the better part of the last ten years or so.  So they'll downgrade to being terrible while accumulating young players.  They could do much worse.

What I just don't get is why so many seem to be decrying this because it's risky. Yeah, it's risky but truly, what do they have to lose? What exactly was their alternative? Because they tried being an average team. Again and again. For several years. They made incremental moves over the years to improve without rebuilding. What did all of that get them? A capped out, middle of the road team with a bunch of good - but not elite or great - players and two fewer draft picks. Is that something they should've been excited to maintain?

[MBunge]

What exactly was their alternative?

The Sixers were already lottery bound before they traded Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes for 2nd round picks.  There's very little chance that any of those picks turn out to be even half as good as either Turner or Hawes.  Keep those 2 players, which Philly could have done without killing their cap, add two lottery picks and, all of a sudden, you've got a team not only close to playoff contention next year but have the ability to make big moves to get substantially better.  Who is Philly going to trade for with their 87 billion 2nd round picks?  What superstar player is going to go there for ANY amount of money when the team is likely going to be the youngest and least overall talented team in the league for the next 2 or 3 years?  And that's not even considering that Noel or either of their two lottery picks this year could turn out to be "merely" good and not great players.  And they traded Turner and Hawes AFTER there was plenty of talk that none of this year's likely draftees are on the level of LeBron or Durant.

As a Celtics fan, I'm not at all bothered by the reckless, unwise moves made by Philly.

As a basketball fan, I hate to see the propagation of this "if you ain't first, you're last" Ricky Bobby idiocy.

Mike

[Endless Paradise]

Why should they have tied up long-term money in guys who aren't good enough to make a significant impact?  Are you not getting my point that they literally did JUST that for the past ten years? What do you think they were doing when they drafted Turner second overall and added him to a core including Iguodala, Hawes, Young, and Holiday? Or when they traded away a first-rounder on draft day for Arnett Moultrie?

Turner and Hawes were not going to be retained; that was evident from the moment the Sixers traded their best player in Holiday. Second-round picks are still assets; doesn't matter if Philly uses them or just flips them in the future.  As we've just seen, second-round picks can get you B-level impact players like Luol Deng.

They've already seen the ceiling of a team with Turner and Hawes as part of the core and they were not sold on signing them long-term.

As a basketball fan, I hate the perpetuation of this "there's only one way to rebuild a team" idiocy. Philly did what they felt they had to do for the future of their team. Boston's doing what they feel is best for their rebuild. There's no "right" way to rebuilding. Each team's situation is unique and they have to do what works best for them.

[MBunge]

Why should they have tied up long-term money in guys who aren't good enough to make a significant impact?

Hawes is averaging 13 points, 8 rebs and a block a game at just 25 years old, which means he's probably not even in his prime yet and is better than any center not-named KG that Boston has had since The Chief.  As a starter in Philly, Evan Turner was putting up 17 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 steal a game.  Those are pretty much the same stats as Michael Carter-Williams is putting up.  He's 22.  Turner is 25.

Again, there's very little chance that any or all of Philly's 2nd round picks will be as good as Hawes or Turner.  And when Luol Deng walks away from Cleveland after this season, you'll understand why Chicago only got 2nd round picks for him.

What could Philly do?  Keep Turner and Hawes.  Add Noel and two more lottery picks this year.  They'd still be very young.  They'd still have salary cap room.  They'd also be significantly better than what Philly put on the floor this year or what they'll run out there next season.  With MCW, they'd have 6 lottery picks on their roster.  In other words, they'd have next year exactly what you're calling for them to spend 2 or 3 more years building up toward.

And again, they've left themselves with one and only one way forward.  They can't attract any decent free agents.  They don't have any assets worth trading for, unless it's a team just looking to unload a high-priced player they don't want to resign who will then flee Philly as soon as his contract is up.  If they don't get a franchise player in the draft this year or next, they're going to end up exactly where you're so afraid of them being.  A mid-level team without any chance of winning a title and little to no way of changing that.

Boston has more 1st round picks than Philly.  They have more tradeable assets than Philly.  And they can have huge salary cap room after next season.  And they've done all that without reducing their talent level to a joke.

Philly turning Holiday into Noel and another 1st round pick was a defensible blow it up move.  Unloading rotation caliber players for 10 cents on the dollar when you already suck enough to get into the lottery isn't. Should Ainge have traded Al Jefferson for some 2nd round picks in hopes of tanking his way into Durant or Oden?  What if he'd done that and wound up with Oden?  Where would that have left Boston?

Look, if Philly had been fighting for that last playoff spot, dumping Turner and Hawes would have made some cruel sense.  There's no logic is downgrading your team when you're already lottery bound.  The minute increase in your chance of getting a higher pick doesn't outweigh the talent void you're creating for yourself.

This is the equation.  MCW+Turner+Hawes+Noel+2 lottery picks > MCW+Noel+2 lottery picks+Five 2nd round picks.

Mike

[MBunge]

Or to put it more simply, nbadraft.net has Philly taking Embiid and TJ Warren with their two lottery picks in 2014.  Which means the most likely result is they'll turn themselves into a laughingstock and wind up with players not all that much better than they two they got rid off.

Mike

[freshinthehouse]

This is the equation.  MCW+Turner+Hawes+Noel+2 lottery picks > MCW+Noel+2 lottery picks+Five 2nd round picks.

Mike

Philly has had years to evaluate both Turner and Hawes.  My guess is they had no plans to resign either one long term (and I can't blame them).   Turner's game is a mess.  He's a backup on a good team, and I've got a hunch some team is going to pay him a starter's wage.  Hawes has his charms, but he is allergic to playing defense.  And we've all seen how centers are overpaid in free agency.  May as well move them and get an asset for them, even if it is only 2nd rounders.

[Endless Paradise]

^---- exactly

This is the equation.  MCW+Turner+Hawes+Noel+2 lottery picks > MCW+Noel+2 lottery picks+Five 2nd round picks.

Mike

That's the MBunge equation.  The Sixers front office equation is as follows:

MCW + Young + Noel + lottery picks + cap space > MCW + Young + Noel + Hawes + Turner + lottery picks + less cap space.

[MBunge]

^---- exactly

This is the equation.  MCW+Turner+Hawes+Noel+2 lottery picks > MCW+Noel+2 lottery picks+Five 2nd round picks.

Mike

That's the MBunge equation.  The Sixers front office equation is as follows:

MCW + Young + Noel + lottery picks + cap space > MCW + Young + Noel + Hawes + Turner + lottery picks + less cap space.

What use is cap space if you have no tradeable assets and are so terrible no good free agent will give you the time of day and anyone traded to you against their wishes will flee as soon as they can?

I don't know why this is hard to grasp.  The trade for Noel and a pick was tanking and completely defensible.  Trading Hawes and Turner for 10 cents on the dollar was just dumb.

1.  It isn't really improving their chances in the lottery.

2.  They now have to spend draft picks to try and get players as good or better but didn't get back the kind of picks to do that.

3.  They hurt their trade position because there's no team with anything good to offer that wouldn't rather have Turner or Hawes than a couple of 2nd round picks.

4.  They've also hurt their trade position because they almost HAVE to make one or more trades now.  Is Philly really going into next season with MCW, a technical rookie in Noel and 7 actual rookies from this draft?

And, of course, this doesn't even get into the whole thing about players on bad teams developing bad habits. 

Mike

[Endless Paradise]

Young players and draft picks are assets.  Who cares about them not being able to attract free agents while they're terrible?  They're not looking for an immediate turnaround and they're not looking to invest big money in free agents before they're ready.  When they're ready to make the leap in a few years, guess what?  Because they won't have tied up money in Hawes and Turner, they'll have the cap space to sign the free agents they covet.  I have no idea why you're not understanding this, unless you think a prospective free agent's going to care that Philly was a historically bad team a few years before they signed with the Sixers.

As for "only" getting second-round picks for those guys - and?  Please point out any of the draft-day trades from this year in which a first-rounder was involved.  Teams are NOT giving up first-rounders that easily nowadays - ESPECIALLY when expiring contracts are involved, as with Hawes and Turner - so you're not going to see them changing hands all that often.  What you're seeing more of now are trades involving second-round picks.

Did Cleveland not just acquire Hawes and Deng using several second-rounders?  Did the Pacers not just trade for Turner using a second-round pick?

And obviously they're not going to draft seven players with all of those picks.  They can use them in a variety of ways; as part of a trade package to acquire other players, or as incentive for salary dumping an unwanted contract, or to trade up in the draft.

[LilRip]

I'm pretty sure that Philly viewed neither Hawes nor Turner as guys they wanted to invest long term money in. I mean, I think Turner would've demanded Jeff Green money and Hawes, a little higher. Both players would've killed their flexibility.

I'm guessing they want to keep their flexibility for when they want to resign their own prized players who are still on rookie contracts and avoid the Harden situation. Also for maneuverability in trades and/or signings. Haven't been following Philly so closely but this is how I interpreted their moves.

[Endless Paradise]

I'm pretty sure that Philly viewed neither Hawes nor Turner as guys they wanted to invest long term money in. I mean, I think Turner would've demanded Jeff Green money and Hawes, a little higher. Both players would've killed their flexibility.

Exactly, the idea that they should've been retained for the sake of retaining them is just ridiculous.  They already assessed their worth and figured it wouldn't be wise to invest in them for the kind of money they'd likely seek, especially after a year on a team in which they were posting career-highs.  They were either going to let them walk or trade them.  As it is, they traded them for assets they can potentially use in the future.

[nickagneta]

Running an NBA team is not fantasy basketball. You just don't make deals that net you 10 cents on the dollar for an asset or assets in business and take a major loss as a way making you business more successful unless your CPA tells you to to make the bottom line more tax palatable or because you are looking to satisfy a major customer and ensure higher sales revenues from that customer.

Yes, professional sports are a different paradigm but not so much as to defend what the Sixers have done. This deconstructive year will most likely hamper their rebuild by years and years. Why? Because in dealing away assets for next to nothing the Sixers are not ensuring future success they are simply bettering their chances at landing a better prospect that could very well end up not being that good.

The risk involved in such a move is extraordinary. Businessmen, at least the ones who I know that are very successful make deals that reduce risk. Great businessmen would rather have certainties.

This strategy that the Sixers have undertaken has tremendous risk. They have put all their eggs into the basket of landing great young talent and then developing that talent into game altering players that will lead them to greatness. But at what cost to the fan base? At what cost to the ticket buying customers? At what cost to securing future alternate money revenues like local television and radio deals? At what cost to profitability? And at what cost to winning if the players do noit pan out which happens all the time?

There's no guarantees in this strategy and the Sixers have strip mined the talent on this team. They might be historically bad for years and years to come, much like Minnesota under Kahn. What happened there? They were historically bad for 4-5 year and this year they still suck and now their franchise player, in frustration of having to play there long term wants out.

This strategy, to me, pretty much guarantees that whatever great player or players they do draft and develop will most likely leave Philly to go on to another team to win championships elsewhere.This is the reason the amount of great players that have won a title with their team while being the number one guy on that team is so low. Players are assets but they have the ability to leave if they do not like the environment they are working in.

Trading away assets for nothing and having a talent strip mined roster that almost guarantees losing for years and years, does not create an environment that makes their current assets want to stay there.

Given the Sixers are a rival, I am glad they undertook this particular, fantasy basketball like strategy of tanking like they have. I am also extremely happy Danny Ainge is in charge of the Celtics and knows better than to try something like this.

[LooseCannon]

There's no guarantees in this strategy and the Sixers have strip mined the talent on this team.

What talent?

The Sixers were devoid of talent, so it's not really costing them much to have a fire sale.  It would be right for them to dismantle their team even this was considered one of the weakest draft classes ever.

[Endless Paradise]

There's no guarantees in this strategy and the Sixers have strip mined the talent on this team.

What talent?

The Sixers were devoid of talent, so it's not really costing them much to have a fire sale.  It would be right for them to dismantle their team even this was considered one of the weakest draft classes ever.

The talent that comprised their mediocre, irrelevant teams over the past ten years, I guess.  The same teams that their fanbase largely ignored over the past ten years because, again, they were mediocre and never actually capable of winning anything significant.  Somehow, I don't think it's quite a coincidence that the Sixers have largely been in the bottom ten of the league in terms of attendance since 2005 (aka pretty much when they stopped being relevant and truly competitive).

[LilRip]

nick, are we still talking about Evan Turner and Spencer Hawes? Y'know, two guys who the Sixers were likely going to let walk this offseason anyway but actually got some assets for?

From an outsider's perspective, it seems to me that MCW, Noel and the 2 lottery picks in 2014 will be their "core" moving forward (though it's possible they move one or both picks in some sort of package deal on draft night for a really solid player). They also still have Thaddeus Young (who i actually think is better than anyone on the current C's roster, with the exception of Rondo).

I doubt losing Turner and Hawes has suddenly set their franchise back years and years. IMO, signing those two guys to lucrative extensions would've actually set the franchise back more, than trading them away. Besides, they have a ton of cap space with which to sign players on the level of those two, if they see the need for it.