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Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2014, 03:44:36 PM »

Online Roy H.

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  Antoine represents the one thing ML Carr did when running the team that was borderline brilliant. We had the 9th pick in his draft and Carr swapped Eric Montross and the 9th pick for the 6th pick and a 1st rounder the next year (ended up the #3 pick).

It was actually the 6th pick the next year (Ron Mercer).  Yeah, it was brilliant.

Ron Mercer.  I was sky-high on that kid.  I guess there's not much of a spot for a SG who can't hit threes and doesn't play much defense, but I really thought he was going to be huge for us.  He carved out an okay couple of seasons in Chicago before injuries wrecked his career, if I'm remembering right.

(I know history says that we should have taken Tmac, but I think that's hindsight.  Mercer seemed to have star potential coming out of college.)


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Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2014, 03:52:03 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Flaws and annoyances aside, the backboard game winning three against the Lakers is one of my favorite Celtics moments.

my only real regret with the "Toine" era is that we could have drafted kobe.

I think it was a game tying 3 to go into OT. Then we won in ot when they called back a Kobe game winner that to me was at least very borderline

Edit. Nevermind. Same situation just didnt go into ot

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2014, 04:34:50 PM »

Offline soap07

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Antoine Walker made 3 All Star appearances, was the best player on a NCAA championship team and was the starter on an NBA Finals team.

That's a pretty good career. It's not great, but good.

He loved playing the game, but he didn't seem to love to practice it. It just seems like he never got better at anything as his career progressed. That being said, he was my favorite player on the C's during his run because of his electrifying personality - but also because there were slim pickings. One of my finest sports memories is watching that 2002 ECF comeback game. 

Say what you want about him: He was out of shape at times, terrible shot selection, poor defensively, never reached his potential...

But hey, he left the game a winner. I know that's an overused cliche and I hate seeing it but screw it, I'll use it here. He wasn't PJ Brown on the 2008 C's. He was a key contributor the whole year on an NBA Finals team - and was a starter.  Has my respect.

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2014, 04:43:13 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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But hey, he left the game a winner. I know that's an overused cliche and I hate seeing it but screw it, I'll use it here. He wasn't PJ Brown on the 2008 C's. He was a key contributor the whole year on an NBA Finals team - and was a starter.  Has my respect.
I wish he had left it then.

He was suspended repeatedly the next year, traded two more times, and paid to stay away from the locker room in Memphis.

He left the game at age 32 not worth a minimum contract trying to play in the D-league and pretty much broke.

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2014, 04:54:51 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Loved the guy.

To me, he was the next big star, after Larry & Co. retired or moved on.

It became apparent to me over the yrs that I was expecting/hoping him to become Larry...that did not happen, but man he tried.

Others here have mentioned the lack of leadership he had - spot on assessment.

He had a LOT to shoulder...those post-Bird years were hard. But I loved the guy...loved the wiggle, LOL..

Loved these highlights, too - and he had quite a few:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU

Shaq and Kobe were in their prime, and BOS stole this one ;D. Loved Kobe's reaction at the end, there.

Also watched Toine take apart the Wizards in WAS, with 49 pts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9djkuKjLJMw

Sure he made some mistakes, but he had some good times in BOS.

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2014, 04:57:35 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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He's the opposite of Rajon Rondo.

Let me explain.

Toine was a wildly talented player with a vast skillset and reportedly a great Bball IQ.  He joins a terrible organization. A front office who didn't know what they were doing.  A culture defined by losing.  A coach who was in over his head.  No veteran mentors to set him straight.   Within a couple years, he was basically given free reign to do whatever he wanted... He ruled this organization and was given superstar status when it wasn't warranted.  He didn't play the game the right way.  Whereas he always had talent around the basket, he decided he wanted to jack up threes almost exclusively.  The team didn't share the ball... even when they were a 44 win playoff also-ran, it was a 2-man offense with Walker getting to do whatever he wanted.  When O'Brien took over he basically told Pierce and Walker they could do whatever they felt like on the Offensive end as long as they committed to the defense.  What you ended up with was a spoiled talent.   At his peak he had shooting percentages of 38%/32%/61%.  That's obscenely bad.  He's the pure definition of "volume scorer".  He also didn't handle himself professionally... the wiggle was classless.  He would have never done that had he come up under veteran leadership. He was never deserving of the "franchise" label he received here and most of us who followed the team closely during that era recognized it.   Danny Ainge was smart enough to see this and one of his first acts was to ship Walker out of town.

I loved Walker, but he was a spoiled talent.  He came into a bad situation and it ruined what could have been a much better career.  It's the kind of stuff they refer to when they say that DeMarcus Cousins needs a new scene.  Cousins could be an all-time talent with the right mentorship, but he might never reach it on the dreadfully run Kings.

On the flip side... Rajon Rondo.

Rondo was an "ok" prospect.  Mediocre College career.  Mediocre skill set with serious flaws.  Not a lotto pick... not even a top 20 pick.  But he was someone who had potential.  Rajon's first season wasn't great.  He started it 3rd in the depth chart and worked his way up to back-up.  But he joined a smart and well-run organization with a respected coach.  His second season, he was thrown into a situation where he was a default starter on a team whose identity was defined by (at the time) a Top 5 player in the league.  There was just no way you would slack off under KG's watch.  Additionally, he had an all-star OCD perfectionist/"pro's Pro" as his direct mentor (Ray Allen).  And of course there was a 3rd veteran star on the team who lead by example (Paul Pierce).  In addition to those guys, you had quality veterans like PJ Brown and James Posey on the team... and later in the season they added a veteran all-star PG to come off the bench (Sam Cassell).   His coach was a former all-star PG.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  It was absolutely the best-case scenario.  Every step of the way, Rondo had mentors, the best possible situation, a winning culture, great leadership in all areas of the organization, a system in place that would allow him to grow step-by-step and eventually catered to his strengths and weaknesses.   His third year, they brought in a headcase all-star PG to back him up... Rondo surely learned a few lessons in practice from sparring with Stephen Marbury as the player flamed out.  "Here's what NOT to do, Rajon".  Rajon evolved into one of the elite PG's in the league.  An all-star player. 

It's like Gladwell's Outliers.  Your success is as much dependent on your surroundings as it is the work you put into it.   Had Rondo joined the dreadful organization that Walker joined, I don't think he ever reaches all-star status.  Had Walker joined the team Rondo grew up on, it's possible he would have evolved into an all-timer.  I legitimately believe that.   Antoine Skywalker joined a soulless franchise and went to the dark side of the force.   Rondo Skywalker had mentors like Obi-Wan and Yoda (KG and Ray) guiding his way and making sure that he became a proper Jedi Knight. 

If this was a video game, Walker probably joined the league as a 71 overall with 90 potential... eventually ending up as a 76.   Rondo probably joined the league as a 61 overall with 75 potential, but somehow vastly exceeded all expectations and ended up an 81.
 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 05:05:32 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2014, 05:23:44 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Potential is complex.  I consult re: emotionally-troubled kids and I often hear things like, "he's capable of doing the work but sometimes he just doesn't do it". I get that, but I sometimes (depending on the circumstance) respond with something like, "he produces what he is capable of producing every day". The psychological world of a person, their stresses, response to stress, and their capacity to manage stress is all part of the 'potential equation'.

It's not about base basketball talent alone.  One's ability to consistently access the core talent is dependent on many environmental, psychological, social, emotional and physical variables.  I'd say that Walker produced to his capacity because included in his potential was his ability/inability to manage the environmental factors he was faced with. That's true for every player.  And it's probably true that Rondo's NBA environment presented fewer barriers to, and more positive infuences on, his growth than Walker had.  But I have trouble putting down a guy for being unable to manage more than he was able to manage. Some grow despite obstacles and some don't. Walker made it to the NBA and stayed around for 14 years, averaging 17.5 points and 8 rebounds. He made oodles of cash (of course, now gone) and contributed significantly to a championship team.  Not too bad.  It's amazing he's only 37. Hope he has a good ride the rest of the way.

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2014, 05:24:43 PM »

Offline Jon

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He's the opposite of Rajon Rondo.

Let me explain.

Toine was a wildly talented player with a vast skillset and reportedly a great Bball IQ.  He joins a terrible organization. A front office who didn't know what they were doing.  A culture defined by losing.  A coach who was in over his head.  No veteran mentors to set him straight.   Within a couple years, he was basically given free reign to do whatever he wanted... He ruled this organization and was given superstar status when it wasn't warranted.  He didn't play the game the right way.  Whereas he always had talent around the basket, he decided he wanted to jack up threes almost exclusively.  The team didn't share the ball... even when they were a 44 win playoff also-ran, it was a 2-man offense with Walker getting to do whatever he wanted.  When O'Brien took over he basically told Pierce and Walker they could do whatever they felt like on the Offensive end as long as they committed to the defense.  What you ended up with was a spoiled talent.   At his peak he had shooting percentages of 38%/32%/61%.  That's obscenely bad.  He's the pure definition of "volume scorer".  He also didn't handle himself professionally... the wiggle was classless.  He would have never done that had he come up under veteran leadership. He was never deserving of the "franchise" label he received here and most of us who followed the team closely during that era recognized it.   Danny Ainge was smart enough to see this and one of his first acts was to ship Walker out of town.

I loved Walker, but he was a spoiled talent.  He came into a bad situation and it ruined what could have been a much better career.  It's the kind of stuff they refer to when they say that DeMarcus Cousins needs a new scene.  Cousins could be an all-time talent with the right mentorship, but he might never reach it on the dreadfully run Kings.

On the flip side... Rajon Rondo.

Rondo was an "ok" prospect.  Mediocre College career.  Mediocre skill set with serious flaws.  Not a lotto pick... not even a top 20 pick.  But he was someone who had potential.  Rajon's first season wasn't great.  He started it 3rd in the depth chart and worked his way up to back-up.  But he joined a smart and well-run organization with a respected coach.  His second season, he was thrown into a situation where he was a default starter on a team whose identity was defined by (at the time) a Top 5 player in the league.  There was just no way you would slack off under KG's watch.  Additionally, he had an all-star OCD perfectionist/"pro's Pro" as his direct mentor (Ray Allen).  And of course there was a 3rd veteran star on the team who lead by example (Paul Pierce).  In addition to those guys, you had quality veterans like PJ Brown and James Posey on the team... and later in the season they added a veteran all-star PG to come off the bench (Sam Cassell).   His coach was a former all-star PG.  His GM was a former all-star PG.  It was absolutely the best-case scenario.  Every step of the way, Rondo had mentors, the best possible situation, a winning culture, great leadership in all areas of the organization, a system in place that would allow him to grow step-by-step and eventually catered to his strengths and weaknesses.   His third year, they brought in a headcase all-star PG to back him up... Rondo surely learned a few lessons in practice from sparring with Stephen Marbury as the player flamed out.  "Here's what NOT to do, Rajon".  Rajon evolved into one of the elite PG's in the league.  An all-star player. 

It's like Gladwell's Outliers.  Your success is as much dependent on your surroundings as it is the work you put into it.   Had Rondo joined the dreadful organization that Walker joined, I don't think he ever reaches all-star status.  Had Walker joined the team Rondo grew up on, it's possible he would have evolved into an all-timer.  I legitimately believe that.   Antoine Skywalker joined a soulless franchise and went to the dark side of the force.   Rondo Skywalker had mentors like Obi-Wan and Yoda (KG and Ray) guiding his way and making sure that he became a proper Jedi Knight. 

If this was a video game, Walker probably joined the league as a 71 overall with 90 potential... eventually ending up as a 76.   Rondo probably joined the league as a 61 overall with 75 potential, but somehow vastly exceeded all expectations and ended up an 81.


TP

I totally agree and was about to post something similar.  The only thing I'd add is that this is yet another reason not to go the nuclear option and totally blow this team up by trading Rondo.  If we do get lucky enough to land a Embiid or Parker in the draft, we're going to at least want some sort of veteran presence around to keep him in check and from turning into Toine. 

As for Toine, the guy will always have a special place in my heart.  His flaws have been beaten into the ground both in this thread and over the years, so I won't dwell on them.  But the guy played with heart and when he had it going on a given night, made the Celtics a threat to beat anyone.  And in the dark days of the late '90s and early 2000s, that certainly meant something. 

I was also sad to see him go in '03, thrilled to see him come back in '05 (and very disappointed that team couldn't get by Indy in the first round--with the Glove, Ricky Davis, and Raef LaFrentz, that was arguably the best collection around PP/Toine we ever had), and like Roy, was somewhat sad that Toine never found a way back onto the Big Three Celtics (I would have at least taken a flyer out on him when KG went down in '09). 

I was also happy to see him win the title in Miami.  He was arguably the third best player on that team and actually scored more points than Shaq in the NBA Finals. 

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2014, 06:07:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  Antoine represents the one thing ML Carr did when running the team that was borderline brilliant. We had the 9th pick in his draft and Carr swapped Eric Montross and the 9th pick for the 6th pick and a 1st rounder the next year (ended up the #3 pick).

It was actually the 6th pick the next year (Ron Mercer).  Yeah, it was brilliant.

Ron Mercer.  I was sky-high on that kid.  I guess there's not much of a spot for a SG who can't hit threes and doesn't play much defense, but I really thought he was going to be huge for us.  He carved out an okay couple of seasons in Chicago before injuries wrecked his career, if I'm remembering right.

(I know history says that we should have taken Tmac, but I think that's hindsight.  Mercer seemed to have star potential coming out of college.)

  Without checking, I thought Mercer was #3 and Billups was #6.

  That, by the way, was the smartest thing Pitino ever did, picking Mercer over Billups and casting some doubt on Chauncey (supposedly) so Billups was there when we picked again. He promptly reverted to form, unloading Billups as a rookie because he was worried about giving all three of Billups/Mercer/Walker big contracts.

  I was fairly high on Mercer too btw.
 

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2014, 06:08:06 PM »

Online Donoghus

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  Antoine represents the one thing ML Carr did when running the team that was borderline brilliant. We had the 9th pick in his draft and Carr swapped Eric Montross and the 9th pick for the 6th pick and a 1st rounder the next year (ended up the #3 pick).

It was actually the 6th pick the next year (Ron Mercer).  Yeah, it was brilliant.

Ron Mercer.  I was sky-high on that kid.  I guess there's not much of a spot for a SG who can't hit threes and doesn't play much defense, but I really thought he was going to be huge for us.  He carved out an okay couple of seasons in Chicago before injuries wrecked his career, if I'm remembering right.

(I know history says that we should have taken Tmac, but I think that's hindsight.  Mercer seemed to have star potential coming out of college.)

  Without checking, I thought Mercer was #3 and Billups was #6.

  That, by the way, was the smartest thing Pitino ever did, picking Mercer over Billups and casting some doubt on Chauncey (supposedly) so Billups was there when we picked again. He promptly reverted to form, unloading Billups as a rookie because he was worried about giving all three of Billups/Mercer/Walker big contracts.

  I was fairly high on Mercer too btw.

Billups went third, Mercer 6th.


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Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2014, 06:33:20 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Recalling that draft is depressing.  Much excitment leading to the lottery and then what a huge letdown.  Bad luck not just about not getting TD, but then the reality of the weak draft. 

We'll never know if Billups would have become Billups if he stayed. 

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2014, 06:41:42 PM »

Offline Jon

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  Antoine represents the one thing ML Carr did when running the team that was borderline brilliant. We had the 9th pick in his draft and Carr swapped Eric Montross and the 9th pick for the 6th pick and a 1st rounder the next year (ended up the #3 pick).

It was actually the 6th pick the next year (Ron Mercer).  Yeah, it was brilliant.

Ron Mercer.  I was sky-high on that kid.  I guess there's not much of a spot for a SG who can't hit threes and doesn't play much defense, but I really thought he was going to be huge for us.  He carved out an okay couple of seasons in Chicago before injuries wrecked his career, if I'm remembering right.

(I know history says that we should have taken Tmac, but I think that's hindsight.  Mercer seemed to have star potential coming out of college.)

  Without checking, I thought Mercer was #3 and Billups was #6.

  That, by the way, was the smartest thing Pitino ever did, picking Mercer over Billups and casting some doubt on Chauncey (supposedly) so Billups was there when we picked again. He promptly reverted to form, unloading Billups as a rookie because he was worried about giving all three of Billups/Mercer/Walker big contracts.

  I was fairly high on Mercer too btw.

Billups went third, Mercer 6th.

Right, but the story was right, only it was about Mercer.  Pitino apparently cast doubt on Mercer by leaking to people that he'd never take Mercer (who had played under Pitino at Kentucky).  The story goes teams passed on him at 4 and 5 so he'd be there for Pitino at 6. 

Granted that meant that Vancouver passed on him in favor of Antonio Daniels and Denver in favor of Tony Battie.  So it's not like anyone really won out. 

Overall, outside of Duncan and McGrady, it was a pretty disappointing draft. 

Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2014, 06:52:52 PM »

Offline biggs

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  Antoine represents the one thing ML Carr did when running the team that was borderline brilliant. We had the 9th pick in his draft and Carr swapped Eric Montross and the 9th pick for the 6th pick and a 1st rounder the next year (ended up the #3 pick).

It was actually the 6th pick the next year (Ron Mercer).  Yeah, it was brilliant.

Ron Mercer.  I was sky-high on that kid.  I guess there's not much of a spot for a SG who can't hit threes and doesn't play much defense, but I really thought he was going to be huge for us.  He carved out an okay couple of seasons in Chicago before injuries wrecked his career, if I'm remembering right.

(I know history says that we should have taken Tmac, but I think that's hindsight.  Mercer seemed to have star potential coming out of college.)

  Without checking, I thought Mercer was #3 and Billups was #6.

  That, by the way, was the smartest thing Pitino ever did, picking Mercer over Billups and casting some doubt on Chauncey (supposedly) so Billups was there when we picked again. He promptly reverted to form, unloading Billups as a rookie because he was worried about giving all three of Billups/Mercer/Walker big contracts.

  I was fairly high on Mercer too btw.

Billups went third, Mercer 6th.

Right, but the story was right, only it was about Mercer.  Pitino apparently cast doubt on Mercer by leaking to people that he'd never take Mercer (who had played under Pitino at Kentucky).  The story goes teams passed on him at 4 and 5 so he'd be there for Pitino at 6. 

Granted that meant that Vancouver passed on him in favor of Antonio Daniels and Denver in favor of Tony Battie.  So it's not like anyone really won out. 

Overall, outside of Duncan and McGrady, it was a pretty disappointing draft.

cough cough Chauncey cough. Ahem 

Tmac's not a disappointment?
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Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2014, 07:14:09 PM »

Offline Birdman

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I was also very high on Ron Mercer..thought he was the real deal..i still got his Celtics jersey!!!!
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Re: Antoine Walker: How has history treated your feelings toward Employee #8?
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2014, 07:15:47 PM »

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LOL

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