Author Topic: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?  (Read 15734 times)

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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2014, 10:06:23 AM »

Offline manl_lui

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I mean, good Lord. Were you and I watching the same game on Sunday? Granted, the offense wasn't up to the "hang 40+ points on the Colts" standard, but that isn't what killed us. What killed us was the defense being unable to make a Single. Freaking. Stop. Yes, Thomas killed us when Talib went out, but you know why? Because we had our CBs playing closer to the line to compensate for the lack of any real rush defense. Gronk would have definitely helped against the Broncos, but what happened was that we finally got exposed without Mayo and Wilfork (two players who, by the way, have basically never left the lineup before this year.)

Look, we shouldn't have made it as far as the AFC Championship game. I know we've been spoiled with deep playoff runs, but let's be pragmatic here: anything past making the playoffs itself was playing with house money. And, really, while we'd have been disappointed if we lost against the Colts it's not like it would have been surprising with all the injuries. Injuries may be part of the game, but with the KEY injuries we had on the defense it's amazing we got this far. But now we enter next year with Wilfork, Kelly and Mayo back, which means that we have a starting defense (in no particular order) of:
Jones
Wilfork
Kelly/Spikes (depending on where Ninkovich plays)
Ninkovich
Collins
Hightower
Mayo
Talib
McCourty
Dennard
Ryan/Gregory/free agent safety

That's a solid defense. That solves the major problems the Pats faced this year. MAYBE we need another rushing DE or strong safety, but Kelly and Wilfork in the middle will give us a lot of lanes to the QB.

Bottom line: see how the Pats do next year before we start dismantling the organization. We wouldn't get a big return on Brady anyway (you never really get big returns on any trades except draft pick for draft pick), so he's more valuable to keep than to throw away.

I agree with this 100%, the fact that the Pats fought through and made it to the AFC championship was amazing. Could not be any more proud. The entire season has been unlucky for us. But I am feeling optimistic. If we are able to go this far without Wilfork, Mayo and Gronk, we have a lot to look forward to next season

Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2014, 10:09:22 AM »

Online Moranis

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What if Cleveland offered their 2 firsts (#4 and #26), their second rounder (#35), and Hoyer for Brady?  Do the Patriots do that?
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2014, 10:14:03 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Are you HONESTLY even suggesting we move on from Brady? Want to enter the Mallet era? hHave fun going 0-16. Cant blame brady when the team was decimated and his best WR was a former 7th round pick QB...

Seriously this thread ticks me off >:(

If you'll reread my OP, I said that I wasn't arguing for or against any of the particular moves I brought up; it was just a bunch of hypothetical scenarios in light of the team's recent playoff demise.
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2014, 10:42:44 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Certainly not. Neither is the problem.

I'm not a Pats fan, so as an objective observer...

What they need to do is have someone come in to oversee personnel. i'm aware they won't -- but they should.

Until 2004, the Pats won with an identity that was more Parcells-like (defense, running game, etc). It defies reason that they've consistently ignored bolstering their defensive personnel -- while relying too heavily on Brady on offense -- no matter how good he's been. It;s a formula that's never consistently succeeded in the NFL (read: Payton Manning, Dan Marino, etc).

Get a better defense. Whining about the smallest player on the field (Welker) taking out your only decent DB won't change that fact that you've taken the wrong approach to building a playoff-ready defense, Bill.

Mike

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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2014, 10:46:15 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Certainly not. Neither is the problem.

I'm not a Pats fan, so as an objective observer...

What they need to do is have someone come in to oversee personnel. i'm aware they won't -- but they should.

Until 2004, the Pats won with an identity that was more Parcells-like (defense, running game, etc). It defies reason that they've consistently ignored bolstering their defensive personnel -- while relying too heavily on Brady on offense -- no matter how good he's been. It;s a formula that's never consistently succeeded in the NFL (read: Payton Manning, Dan Marino, etc).

Get a better defense. Whining about the smallest player on the field (Welker) taking out your only decent DB won't change that fact that you've taken the wrong approach to building a playoff-ready defense, Bill.

The team has invested very heavily in the defense in the draft in recent years.  It's not like the team is neglecting that side of things and hoping to get by with no-names.  This year, most of the key guys on defense were out with injuries long before the playoffs began.

Perhaps the issue is Bill Belichick as GM (certainly not as coach), but as long as Bill is here, he'll be able to be the GM if he wants to.

Honestly, I'd say the defense overachieved this year considering how many players were lost to injury.

I think the team has to make some serious moves to resuscitate the offense, though -- which is crazy when you consider how stacked the offense appeared to be just a couple years ago.
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2014, 11:18:50 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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If everyone in the country thinks you have one of the worst receiving cores, well you probably have one of the worst receiving cores.

Our team had the second most drops in the NFL and we werent close to being as pass heavy as other years
The majority of those drops came early in the year when every throw went to Thompkins and Dobson, and neither they nor Brady looked as comfortable as they did by the end of the season.

The only need on offense is a TE who can catch a ball.
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2014, 11:29:55 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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If everyone in the country thinks you have one of the worst receiving cores, well you probably have one of the worst receiving cores.

Our team had the second most drops in the NFL and we werent close to being as pass heavy as other years
The majority of those drops came early in the year when every throw went to Thompkins and Dobson, and neither they nor Brady looked as comfortable as they did by the end of the season.

The only need on offense is a TE who can catch a ball.

I agree, for the most part.

If you look at how the offense was constructed just a couple years ago when it was dominating the league, you had two matchup-nightmare TEs, a dominant slot receiver, and a couple of complementary backs in Woodhead and BJGE.

The offense and the playbook the past few years has been premised on having dynamic pass-catching TEs who can make plays in the middle of the field and get you yards after the catch.  Brady is not a deep ball / outside the numbers guy and really has never been that guy except when he had a HoFer in Randy Moss to throw to.

This year, if it weren't for the loss of Hernandez and Gronkowski, I maintain that the wide receiver group would have been more than adequate.  You can replace Welker with Edelman and Amendola quite easily if you have the top receiving options at TE they expected to have.


Now, heading into next year, you don't have Hernandez and you don't know when Gronk will be back or what you can expect from him when he is.  So it's going to be a tall order to get some TEs in here who can make plays.  Simply having checkdown workhorses like Mulligan and Hoomanawanui isn't going to cut it.  Not by a mile.
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2014, 11:30:18 AM »

Offline Cman

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If everyone in the country thinks you have one of the worst receiving cores, well you probably have one of the worst receiving cores.

Our team had the second most drops in the NFL and we werent close to being as pass heavy as other years
The majority of those drops came early in the year when every throw went to Thompkins and Dobson, and neither they nor Brady looked as comfortable as they did by the end of the season.

The only need on offense is a TE who can catch a ball.

I'd say there are two needs on offense: bring back Edelman and sign or draft a TE who can catch.

Certainly not. Neither is the problem.
Get a better defense. Whining about the smallest player on the field (Welker) taking out your only decent DB won't change that fact that you've taken the wrong approach to building a playoff-ready defense, Bill.

^^Agree that what is needed is more focus on defense, not offense. I see all these polls saying that the biggest need in the offseason is WR. It just isn't. It is one of the lower needs, in my opinion.

Priorities are CB (which might be filled by Talib), DL, S,  pretty much in that order, before turning to TE or WR.

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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2014, 11:40:57 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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If everyone in the country thinks you have one of the worst receiving cores, well you probably have one of the worst receiving cores.

Our team had the second most drops in the NFL and we werent close to being as pass heavy as other years
The majority of those drops came early in the year when every throw went to Thompkins and Dobson, and neither they nor Brady looked as comfortable as they did by the end of the season.

The only need on offense is a TE who can catch a ball.

Yeah a Gronk clearly made our offense legit. Without him there wasnt much. I mean we had one receiver that could even stay on the field.

Vereen had a ton of drops as well and he really only played the last quarter of a season or so.


Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2014, 11:52:06 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Certainly not. Neither is the problem.

I'm not a Pats fan, so as an objective observer...

What they need to do is have someone come in to oversee personnel. i'm aware they won't -- but they should.

Until 2004, the Pats won with an identity that was more Parcells-like (defense, running game, etc). It defies reason that they've consistently ignored bolstering their defensive personnel -- while relying too heavily on Brady on offense -- no matter how good he's been. It;s a formula that's never consistently succeeded in the NFL (read: Payton Manning, Dan Marino, etc).

Get a better defense. Whining about the smallest player on the field (Welker) taking out your only decent DB won't change that fact that you've taken the wrong approach to building a playoff-ready defense, Bill.

The team has invested very heavily in the defense in the draft in recent years.  It's not like the team is neglecting that side of things and hoping to get by with no-names.  This year, most of the key guys on defense were out with injuries long before the playoffs began.

Perhaps the issue is Bill Belichick as GM (certainly not as coach), but as long as Bill is here, he'll be able to be the GM if he wants to.

Honestly, I'd say the defense overachieved this year considering how many players were lost to injury.

I think the team has to make some serious moves to resuscitate the offense, though -- which is crazy when you consider how stacked the offense appeared to be just a couple years ago.

Some of those moves were poor (Hightower). Not a championship caliber defense, IMO. They need to do more there.

Mike

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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2014, 12:17:21 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Certainly not. Neither is the problem.

I'm not a Pats fan, so as an objective observer...

What they need to do is have someone come in to oversee personnel. i'm aware they won't -- but they should.

Until 2004, the Pats won with an identity that was more Parcells-like (defense, running game, etc). It defies reason that they've consistently ignored bolstering their defensive personnel -- while relying too heavily on Brady on offense -- no matter how good he's been. It;s a formula that's never consistently succeeded in the NFL (read: Payton Manning, Dan Marino, etc).

Get a better defense. Whining about the smallest player on the field (Welker) taking out your only decent DB won't change that fact that you've taken the wrong approach to building a playoff-ready defense, Bill.

The team has invested very heavily in the defense in the draft in recent years.  It's not like the team is neglecting that side of things and hoping to get by with no-names.  This year, most of the key guys on defense were out with injuries long before the playoffs began.

Perhaps the issue is Bill Belichick as GM (certainly not as coach), but as long as Bill is here, he'll be able to be the GM if he wants to.

Honestly, I'd say the defense overachieved this year considering how many players were lost to injury.

I think the team has to make some serious moves to resuscitate the offense, though -- which is crazy when you consider how stacked the offense appeared to be just a couple years ago.

Some of those moves were poor (Hightower). Not a championship caliber defense, IMO. They need to do more there.

I agree; that's where the valid criticism of Bill as a GM comes in.

My point is just that they've definitely made an effort to rebuild the defense.  They haven't neglected it.
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2014, 12:24:48 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Id let belichik worry about that and trust in his wisdom.

Fact is this team had no business being in the AFC championship game. Lots of their wins were amazing comebacks and Tom and Bill deserve alot of the credit.

They overachieved this year. KC likely would've beat them if they didn't choke. Bad matchup.

This team had Brady and a bunch im of no names.

No wilfork, mayo, gronk, welker, Hernandez. They lost a lot of team captain type players from last year.

To get to the AFC championship this year was incredible. Brady was incredible. So was Bill.


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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2014, 12:27:40 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Belichick should get coach of the year for how well his defense played, since calling it patchwork would be generous.
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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2014, 12:37:03 PM »

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Injuries destroyed the team defensively.  Pats lost the two biggest anchors of their defense in Wilfork & Mayo not to mention a valuable player in Kelly.  Talib was never 100% and I'm not sure McCourty was totally right down the stretch.

I wouldn't go as far to label Hightower a bust.  He had an excellent start to the season but struggled mightily in Oct-Nov when Mayo went out.  He was playing out of position much of the 2nd half of the season which didn't help matters. I also think he rebounded a bit and played must better the last month or so (including playoffs).

The Hernandez thing killed them (sorry, pun not intended) before the season started.  Totally threw the offensive strategy through a loop and they never fully recovered.  The team only had a glimpse of Gronk too which didn't help matters.

Brady's accuracy was off a lot of the season.  I think the early part was due to unfamiliarity with receivers while I think he was playing with hand/ligament damage at the end of the season.  I'm sure some of it might even be chalked up to age too.

I certainly wouldn't blow things up after this season.  They were still the second best team in the AFC while playing with a decimated team which is darn impressive.  I think you'd be nuts to move away from Brady or Gronk right now.  Those guys don't grow on trees and this team is still in the upper echelon of the NFL, especially when healthy.


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Re: Time for Pats to move on from Brady, Gronk?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2014, 12:43:47 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Injuries destroyed the team defensively.  Pats lost the two biggest anchors of their defense in Wilfork & Mayo not to mention a valuable player in Kelly.  Talib was never 100% and I'm not sure McCourty was totally right down the stretch.

I wouldn't go as far to label Hightower a bust.  He had an excellent start to the season but struggled mightily in Oct-Nov when Mayo went out.  He was playing out of position much of the 2nd half of the season which didn't help matters. I also think he rebounded a bit and played must better the last month or so (including playoffs).

The Hernandez thing killed them (sorry, pun not intended) before the season started.  Totally threw the offensive strategy through a loop and they never fully recovered.  The team only had a glimpse of Gronk too which didn't help matters.

Brady's accuracy was off a lot of the season.  I think the early part was due to unfamiliarity with receivers while I think he was playing with hand/ligament damage at the end of the season.  I'm sure some of it might even be chalked up to age too.

I certainly wouldn't blow things up after this season.  They were still the second best team in the AFC while playing with a decimated team which is darn impressive.  I think you'd be nuts to move away from Brady or Gronk right now.  Those guys don't grow on trees and this team is still in the upper echelon of the NFL, especially when healthy.

Too many excuses here. Sure, each is a setback, but when you look at the larger pattern for the Pats in the playoffs over the past 10 years, it's the like Groundhog Day.
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