Author Topic: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was  (Read 21420 times)

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Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2014, 07:02:17 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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"chasing assists"? that's laughable. i'd love to hear how someone goes about doing this. and please pull out some BS stats to prove this.

Staying in during a blowout win or loss in order to continue qualifying for a record. That's chasing assists, and Rondo was heavily dissected for doing so in the Pistons game that the article just mentioned.

But don't let your reading comprehension get in the way of what you'd like to think these guys are like.


And, again, I liked the fact that he was chasing the assist record. But he was chasing it, the same way Kobe is chasing the all-time scoring title.
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Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2014, 07:07:01 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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"chasing assists"? that's laughable. i'd love to hear how someone goes about doing this. and please pull out some BS stats to prove this.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8913391/is-boston-celtics-team-better-rajon-rondo

Quote
This was supposed to be Rondo's breakout season, not only in terms of stats and achievements, but also in terms of leadership and overall command. He was anointed the team leader in October. He was given an extra-long leash by coach Doc Rivers. His ultra-strong personality would now be even more of a factor on and off the court.

The Celtics were quite willing to live with that. Rondo was an All-Star, a difference-maker, a unique talent. But in the 38 games that Rondo played, what did the Celtics get? They got Rondo chasing a silly assists mark over the first 15 games, a chase that ended with his Humphries altercation. They got a Rondo who, according to one scout interviewed by the estimable Marc Stein, was "playing for steals and assists sometimes instead of making the winning play or the easier play or defending his guy like he should."

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2014, 07:08:39 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Also, if you really wanted to, you could go check out the CB game threads. We talked a lot about the assist streak last year. It's not like this is all after-the-fact posturing.

Here ya go:
Pistons:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=60656.180

Nets:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=60788.135
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2014, 07:38:46 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I joke about Rondo being a Top 20 PG, but I said it before in defense of Rondo...

If Rondo came back and put up EXACTLY the same stats he did during last season (when he was leading us to a below .500 record and chasing assist records):  13.7 points, 11.1 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 1.8 steals ...  That would be an EFF of 21.4.

This season:

#1 CP3 - 26.9
#2 Curry - 25.1
#3 Wall - 21.2
#4 Westbrook - 20.6
#5 Lillard - 19.6
#6 Lowry - 19.5
#7 MCW - 19.5
#8 Lawson - 19.0
#9 Bledsoe - 18.9
#10 Thomas - 18.6
#11 Dragic - 18.4
#12 Ellis - 18.3
#13 Holiday - 18.1
#14 Kyrie - 18.1
... then a dropoff
#15 Conley - 17.2
#16 Teague - 17.0
#17 Jennings - 17.0
#18 Parker - 17.0
#19 Kemba - 16.6
#20 Rubio - 16.5

Note:  Deron Williams was a 19.5 last year and is typically on the list.  Derrick Rose was a 22.9 in his prime.  Tony Parker was a 21.2 last year.

Point is, in defense of Rondo... if he came back 100% like he played last year, he'd statistically be the 3rd best PG in the league this year.  That's assuming they let him control the ball and chase assists in the same way Boston did early last year.

Still... there's 14 excellent PG's in the league right now. 15 if you include Tony Parker.  16 if you include Rondo.  17 if you include Rose.  18 if you include Deron.  You have a consensus top 2 in CP3/Curry... then everyone from #3 to #18 is more or less interchangeable.  Easiest position in the league to fill.  You could swap the bottom (irving) with the top (wall) and probably not notice much of a difference.

  A couple of things worth pointing out: your numbers don't include defense, so you'd probably have to give a boost to Rondo and Paul. Also, there are things that point guards do that can have a large(ish) effect on the game, like control the pace of the game or direct an offense well. For instance people were comparing Rondo's stats to Crawford's and deciding there wasn't a big difference, but all the possessions we have that end up with 26 footers at the end of the shot clock don't make it into those ratings.

  Having said that, if you did a quick and dirty average for Rondo over the last 5 years (add the 5 efficiencies and divide by 5) he'd be 5th on that list. If you did the same for the playoffs, he'd be 3rd. So using your method of comparing players Rondo's still near the top.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2014, 07:41:47 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Also Ellis is on that list, and he's decidedly not a point.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2014, 07:45:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Also, if you really wanted to, you could go check out the CB game threads. We talked a lot about the assist streak last year. It's not like this is all after-the-fact posturing.

Here ya go:
Pistons:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=60656.180

Nets:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=60788.135

  I don't think there are many negative things (real or imagined) about Rondo that you couldn't find multiple threads about.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2014, 07:51:18 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Sure, but the point is that player acknowledged it, the fans saw it, and the media analyzed it. Saying Rondo was chasing the assist streak is about as controversial as saying Bradley's a good defender.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2014, 09:12:00 PM »

Offline action781

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rondo = overrated around here, underrated around the rest of the country, imo

will be interested how he performs now that he is "the man" on this team

  I think that if you quantified how Rondo's rated around the league it would be well higher than how he's rated here.

Really? In their pre-season player rankings, ESPN ranked Rondo as the 27th best player in the league. However, I believe you have him as either a top 5 or top 10 player.

  Obviously his knee injury affected his rankings. In his last full season ESPN ranked him 12th and he was 3rd team all-nba (13th in total votes), 11th in all-star voting, 2nd team all-defense. That's not that far from what I've said in the past (top 15 or so during the season, top 5 in the playoffs when healthy). People spend a lot of time ridiculing my opinion of Rondo but it's fairly mainstream.
 

Well, keep in mind that Westbrook, Rose, and Kobe were all ranked ahead of him and they all were dealing with injuries as well.

The league has changed a good bit since Rondo was ranked 12th. Harden, George, Irving, Lillard, Curry, etc. have all emerged. And with all the young players (Anthony Davis, Cousins, Drummond, etc.) continuing to rise, him being top 15, as you said, remains in question.

  Sure, there's movement below him and players ahead of him drop. But from your ESPN rank, in Rondo's last 2 full seasons he was 17th and 12th. He's generally around that range in all-star voting, and he's been in that range for all-nba voting as well. I think you'd have a fairly tough time trying to demonstrate that he was viewed at a level lower than that outside of Boston prior to his injury. Again, it's relatively close to what I typically say about Rondo (although I don't have proof he's more highly rated in the playoffs, he's probably more known for stepping up his game in the postseason than anyone in the league).

Tim, I don't disagree with you that Rondo is in the 12-17 range of players when healthy.  That 12-17 range is an average of him being better than that when he's trying and worse when he decides not to come play his hardest.  But a lot of your comments have also led me to believe in the past that you find Rondo to be an indisputable top 5-10 NBA player at all times and at worst a top 2 PG in the league.  I could be mistaken, but I feel like I read you comparing him favorably over Chris Paul a lot.

When New Orleans had a gun to their head to trade CP3, they wouldn't trade him for Rondo.  They would trade him for Eric Gordon and they would trade for that other weird package that got overturned by Stern, but not for Rondo.   A trade offer of Rondo for Steph Curry way before Curry became what he is now was also rejected by GS.  I think that gives some perspective of where Rondo's value around the league lies. 

I would say he's underrated outside of celtic nation.  I think on celticsblog, its impossible to say because we have some posters who seriously underrate him, but also a few who IMO overrate him.  If you are in one of those groups, you only read and remember the posts of the people in the opposite camp, so you assume that the majority of celticsblog thinks that way.
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Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2014, 09:19:05 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Lol.  You guys are funny.  Rondo is a better rebounder than Curry.  Also a better passer.  Gets his teammates involved and makes everybody on the floor look like a million buck.

Oh boy.

Warriors have won 9 in a row.   Curry is averaging 23.3 points, 9.6 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2 steals on 45%/41%/86% shooting.

Sure... Rondo has better career rebounding numbers.  If the main thing you look for in building a team is rebounding from your point guard, at least Rondo has that going for him.

As for Rondo making everyone on the floor look like a million buck... they were below .500 last season until he got injured.  Then everyone collectively played better and made the playoffs. 

Rondo isn't better than Curry.  Just not true.  He's a fine PG... statistically Rondo in his prime could be a Top 5 PG this year.  But there are a couple guys who outclass him right now.  17 other guys who are basically interchangeable with him.


Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2014, 09:39:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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rondo = overrated around here, underrated around the rest of the country, imo

will be interested how he performs now that he is "the man" on this team

  I think that if you quantified how Rondo's rated around the league it would be well higher than how he's rated here.

Really? In their pre-season player rankings, ESPN ranked Rondo as the 27th best player in the league. However, I believe you have him as either a top 5 or top 10 player.

  Obviously his knee injury affected his rankings. In his last full season ESPN ranked him 12th and he was 3rd team all-nba (13th in total votes), 11th in all-star voting, 2nd team all-defense. That's not that far from what I've said in the past (top 15 or so during the season, top 5 in the playoffs when healthy). People spend a lot of time ridiculing my opinion of Rondo but it's fairly mainstream.
 

Well, keep in mind that Westbrook, Rose, and Kobe were all ranked ahead of him and they all were dealing with injuries as well.

The league has changed a good bit since Rondo was ranked 12th. Harden, George, Irving, Lillard, Curry, etc. have all emerged. And with all the young players (Anthony Davis, Cousins, Drummond, etc.) continuing to rise, him being top 15, as you said, remains in question.

  Sure, there's movement below him and players ahead of him drop. But from your ESPN rank, in Rondo's last 2 full seasons he was 17th and 12th. He's generally around that range in all-star voting, and he's been in that range for all-nba voting as well. I think you'd have a fairly tough time trying to demonstrate that he was viewed at a level lower than that outside of Boston prior to his injury. Again, it's relatively close to what I typically say about Rondo (although I don't have proof he's more highly rated in the playoffs, he's probably more known for stepping up his game in the postseason than anyone in the league).

Tim, I don't disagree with you that Rondo is in the 12-17 range of players when healthy.  That 12-17 range is an average of him being better than that when he's trying and worse when he decides not to come play his hardest.  But a lot of your comments have also led me to believe in the past that you find Rondo to be an indisputable top 5-10 NBA player at all times and at worst a top 2 PG in the league.  I could be mistaken, but I feel like I read you comparing him favorably over Chris Paul a lot.

  I think you're either misunderstanding my posts or you're being influenced by strawman representations of my posts. I think Rondo does some things better than Paul, other things not as well. Rondo goes through some stretches when I think he's playing better than any other pg. So (obviously) does Paul, so do other point guards at times. I think Rondo (when healthy) plays like a top 5 player in the postseason, obviously I wouldn't claim that was indisputable.

When New Orleans had a gun to their head to trade CP3, they wouldn't trade him for Rondo.  They would trade him for Eric Gordon and they would trade for that other weird package that got overturned by Stern, but not for Rondo.   A trade offer of Rondo for Steph Curry way before Curry became what he is now was also rejected by GS.  I think that gives some perspective of where Rondo's value around the league lies.

  The Gordon trade included an unprotected (IIRC) pick from a team that had been doormats the previous 3-4 years. It wasn't Rondo or Gordon straight up for Paul, and you don't know what the rest of the package Danny offered or NO wanted were. In any case, people base Rondo (and others) on rumors or opinions, and give those rumors more or less credibility based on their existing opinions. Case in point Courtney Lee. You could find tons of posts about his having negative trade value. Houston refused to take him in a trade, yet Memphis wants him. Which of those two proposed deals tells you more about Lee's value around the league? Don't they say opposite things about his value?   

I would say he's underrated outside of celtic nation.  I think on celticsblog, its impossible to say because we have some posters who seriously underrate him, but also a few who IMO overrate him.  If you are in one of those groups, you only read and remember the posts of the people in the opposite camp, so you assume that the majority of celticsblog thinks that way.

  I suppose, although I don't think top 15 or so player in the league would be middle of the road here.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2014, 10:18:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Lol.  You guys are funny.  Rondo is a better rebounder than Curry.  Also a better passer.  Gets his teammates involved and makes everybody on the floor look like a million buck.

Oh boy.

Warriors have won 9 in a row.   Curry is averaging 23.3 points, 9.6 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2 steals on 45%/41%/86% shooting.

Sure... Rondo has better career rebounding numbers.  If the main thing you look for in building a team is rebounding from your point guard, at least Rondo has that going for him.

As for Rondo making everyone on the floor look like a million buck... they were below .500 last season until he got injured.  Then everyone collectively played better and made the playoffs. 

  There were plenty of reasons for the team's uneven play last year besides Rondo's injury. I'm sure many people here could break it down for you. As for Rondo making other players look better, players that had their most efficient scoring years with Rondo controlling the offense include PP, RA, Shaq and Wilcox.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2014, 10:51:42 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Lol.  You guys are funny.  Rondo is a better rebounder than Curry.  Also a better passer.  Gets his teammates involved and makes everybody on the floor look like a million buck.

Oh boy.

Warriors have won 9 in a row.   Curry is averaging 23.3 points, 9.6 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2 steals on 45%/41%/86% shooting.

Sure... Rondo has better career rebounding numbers.  If the main thing you look for in building a team is rebounding from your point guard, at least Rondo has that going for him.

As for Rondo making everyone on the floor look like a million buck... they were below .500 last season until he got injured.  Then everyone collectively played better and made the playoffs. 

  There were plenty of reasons for the team's uneven play last year besides Rondo's injury. I'm sure many people here could break it down for you. As for Rondo making other players look better, players that had their most efficient scoring years with Rondo controlling the offense include PP, RA, Shaq and Wilcox.

Read what he wrote again.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2014, 10:57:28 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Lol.  You guys are funny.  Rondo is a better rebounder than Curry.  Also a better passer.  Gets his teammates involved and makes everybody on the floor look like a million buck.

Oh boy.

Warriors have won 9 in a row.   Curry is averaging 23.3 points, 9.6 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2 steals on 45%/41%/86% shooting.

Sure... Rondo has better career rebounding numbers.  If the main thing you look for in building a team is rebounding from your point guard, at least Rondo has that going for him.

As for Rondo making everyone on the floor look like a million buck... they were below .500 last season until he got injured.  Then everyone collectively played better and made the playoffs. 

  There were plenty of reasons for the team's uneven play last year besides Rondo's injury. I'm sure many people here could break it down for you. As for Rondo making other players look better, players that had their most efficient scoring years with Rondo controlling the offense include PP, RA, Shaq and Wilcox.

You can also KG to that list (yeah, I said it).

And I don't get the uber amnesia with regards to last season - after Rondo went down we continued play .500 ball and got bouncedin the 1st round.
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Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2014, 10:58:10 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Lol.  You guys are funny.  Rondo is a better rebounder than Curry.  Also a better passer.  Gets his teammates involved and makes everybody on the floor look like a million buck.

Oh boy.

Warriors have won 9 in a row.   Curry is averaging 23.3 points, 9.6 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2 steals on 45%/41%/86% shooting.

Sure... Rondo has better career rebounding numbers.  If the main thing you look for in building a team is rebounding from your point guard, at least Rondo has that going for him.

As for Rondo making everyone on the floor look like a million buck... they were below .500 last season until he got injured.  Then everyone collectively played better and made the playoffs. 

  There were plenty of reasons for the team's uneven play last year besides Rondo's injury. I'm sure many people here could break it down for you. As for Rondo making other players look better, players that had their most efficient scoring years with Rondo controlling the offense include PP, RA, Shaq and Wilcox.

Read what he wrote again.

  I don't think I missed his point. I suppose I could have been more verbose in my response though.

Re: Just in case anyone around here forgot how good he was
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2014, 10:58:47 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Also, if you really wanted to, you could go check out the CB game threads. We talked a lot about the assist streak last year. It's not like this is all after-the-fact posturing.

Here ya go:
Pistons:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=60656.180

Nets:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=60788.135

  I don't think there are many negative things (real or imagined) about Rondo that you couldn't find multiple threads about.

What are the "real" negative things in your opinion? This should be interesting coming from the ultimate Rondo apologist.

Again, just to clarify, I do like Rondo. However, I am a C's fan first and foremost and my allegiance lies with the team not a particular player. So with that in mind, it's quite easy to point out flaws and call a spade a spade. You? I'm not so sure. If Rondo were traded to another team I wonder if you would frequent C's blog as much.