Author Topic: Tankers Rejoice  (Read 26216 times)

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Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2014, 10:38:28 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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I along with the majority of "tankers" share the opinion of LarBrd33. Tanking is done at the exuctive level, not those on the line. I want these Celtics to play their heart out and just not be good enough.

Meaning: Ainge should trade say, Bass, for a 2nd rounder just to get one of the few rotation worthy players off the roster in order to increase the chances of a bottom-6 finish?

That I do not agree with.

Trading Bass for a 2nd rounder frees up an additional $6 M to use in free agency this upcoming summer.

I think having enough cap space to offer a max deal, along with improving the chances of landing a top pick, is a worthwhile goal and a good approach to building a contender in the near future. I make that trade all day long given our current situation.
Yeah... trading Bass for a 2nd rounder would be a heist.

What if it were Bass and Lee?
15 million for a veteran to come off your bench for the next 3 years is the luxury of contenders.  I'm pretty sure a 34 win team (whether playoff-bound or lotto bound) would be happy to rid themselves of Lee's contract.

No team GM in the NBA will give up an expiring for Lee.

Dumping Bass' salary doesn't move the needle on the prospects for next year's squad. $6 mil of cap space amounts to nothing. You need at least twice that much to do anything of importance in the free agent market.

Then don't trade him.

OK, then back to my original question: what if Bass is helping the team win games? What do you do if the objective is a bottom-6 finish this season?
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Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2014, 10:42:56 PM »

Offline JSD

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I along with the majority of "tankers" share the opinion of LarBrd33. Tanking is done at the exuctive level, not those on the line. I want these Celtics to play their heart out and just not be good enough.

Meaning: Ainge should trade say, Bass, for a 2nd rounder just to get one of the few rotation worthy players off the roster in order to increase the chances of a bottom-6 finish?

That I do not agree with.

Trading Bass for a 2nd rounder frees up an additional $6 M to use in free agency this upcoming summer.

I think having enough cap space to offer a max deal, along with improving the chances of landing a top pick, is a worthwhile goal and a good approach to building a contender in the near future. I make that trade all day long given our current situation.
Yeah... trading Bass for a 2nd rounder would be a heist.

What if it were Bass and Lee?
15 million for a veteran to come off your bench for the next 3 years is the luxury of contenders.  I'm pretty sure a 34 win team (whether playoff-bound or lotto bound) would be happy to rid themselves of Lee's contract.

No team GM in the NBA will give up an expiring for Lee.

Dumping Bass' salary doesn't move the needle on the prospects for next year's squad. $6 mil of cap space amounts to nothing. You need at least twice that much to do anything of importance in the free agent market.

Then don't trade him.

OK, then back to my original question: what if Bass is helping the team win games? What do you do if the objective is a bottom-6 finish this season?

Not really the original question...

If he's playing well, that improves his value around the league, thus allowing us the ability to trade him without giving up as much as a straight $6 M dump. I think trading Bass in a shedding fashion is within the realm of possibility given how he's played this season and his contract not being too bad.

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2014, 11:30:27 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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At the beginning of the season it was; "Wiggins/Parker of bust!".  Now it's; "woo hoo, ninth pick!"

Congratulations, tankers . . . I guess.

I don't think a 9th pick is anyone's best case scenario, but I also doubt anyone who thinks that getting a top-5 pick in this draft believes the C's will remain at the 9th spot. There's no real separation yet, lotta basketball.

In that case, it's a little early for the tankers to be rejoicing.
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2014, 11:37:18 PM »

Offline BigAlTheFuture

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I want us to win and root for us to win, but if we lose, I don't care. I'm just like "whatever, at least it helps our chances at getting a high lottery pick."

What's that make me?
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Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2014, 11:40:30 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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At the beginning of the season it was; "Wiggins/Parker of bust!".  Now it's; "woo hoo, ninth pick!"

Congratulations, tankers . . . I guess.

I don't think a 9th pick is anyone's best case scenario, but I also doubt anyone who thinks that getting a top-5 pick in this draft believes the C's will remain at the 9th spot. There's no real separation yet, lotta basketball.

In that case, it's a little early for the tankers to be rejoicing.

Well we started the season as "hey they could sneakily not be as awful as everyone thought."

Then the first four game losing streak happened, and we all started watching college hoops and becoming experts on the draft.

Then we started to reach for .500, and it became all about being "one or two pieces away"

Now we're a little more than a third of the way through the season, and we're back to arguing about tanking... with fewer trade discussions now that the deadline is starting to loom. It's cyclical.

I hope we beat the thunder.
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Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2014, 11:53:11 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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At the beginning of the season it was; "Wiggins/Parker of bust!".  Now it's; "woo hoo, ninth pick!"

Congratulations, tankers . . . I guess.

I don't think a 9th pick is anyone's best case scenario, but I also doubt anyone who thinks that getting a top-5 pick in this draft believes the C's will remain at the 9th spot. There's no real separation yet, lotta basketball.

In that case, it's a little early for the tankers to be rejoicing.

Well we started the season as "hey they could sneakily not be as awful as everyone thought."

Then the first four game losing streak happened, and we all started watching college hoops and becoming experts on the draft.

Then we started to reach for .500, and it became all about being "one or two pieces away"

Now we're a little more than a third of the way through the season, and we're back to arguing about tanking... with fewer trade discussions now that the deadline is starting to loom. It's cyclical.

I hope we beat the thunder.

Me too.
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2014, 12:21:49 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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There is so much talk about tanking all over the league that I am rooting for Ainge to show that it is possible to rebuild without getting a top five pick.  I don't believe in such a rigid fixation on only one way to do things, like those who believe that the Celtics can't win a title without a high draft pick.  I leave that sort of binary thinking to the talking heads on ESPN.
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Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2014, 12:22:13 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I don't mean to gloat, but it feels good to see this basketball team losing some games. It is a necessary evil in this league if you want to have a better shot at building a winner.

Cheers to other tankers today. We will likely lose all 5 of these games of this West Coast swing.

totally, dead-blunt honest...

i'm disgusted by this

it is what it is, I guess

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2014, 12:23:51 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

That's cute, but it's a terrible analogy.  If that lady had said to seven year old me; "here's a marshmallow, there's a chance that I'll give you another marshmallow whether you eat that one or not, but if you don't eat it, there's a slightly higher chance that I'll give you another one," seven year old me would have eaten the marshmallow. 

What I've described is much closer to the Celtics current situation.  We really don't know if that second marshmallow is coming or where it's coming from, whether we tank or not. 

You are right.  I want the marshmallow.  Once I eat it, I'm counting on uncle Danny to get me another one. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2014, 12:31:07 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

That's cute, but it's a terrible analogy.  If that lady had said to seven year old me; "here's a marshmallow, there's a chance that I'll give you another marshmallow whether you eat that one or not, but if you don't eat it, there's a slightly higher chance that I'll give you another one," seven year old me would have eaten the marshmallow. 

What I've described is much closer to the Celtics current situation.  We really don't know if that second marshmallow is coming or where it's coming from, whether we tank or not. 

You are right.  I want the marshmallow.  Once I eat it, I'm counting on uncle Danny to get me another one.

I hear you.  I think we still have some disagreement over whether there is a big difference between a Top 8 pick in this draft vs the #15 pick.  I tend to think the pick itself has significant trade value if it falls within the Top 8 of this draft.  #15 pick... not so much.

I don't think that using history of past drafts is very helpful in that debate.  It's different every year.  Sometimes there is a consensus Top 3... sometimes a consensus Top 2... sometimes it's thought to be 5 players deep.   This draft is unique.  I think bagging this season and landing one of those golden biscuits can be helpful in a multitude of ways.  Ford says he has 8 players in his top 2 tiers this year.  I want a Top 8 pick.  You might luck out with #15, but you're better off with a Top 8 this year.

#1 - Gives you a shot at a star.

#2 - If Ainge goes against the consensus and covets players later in the draft, he could easily trade his Top 8 pick for two picks later in the 1st round.

#3 - It opens up real trade possibilities for existing all-star players.

You don't really have that kind of opportunity with your #15 pick.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:38:04 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2014, 12:34:39 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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At the beginning of the season it was; "Wiggins/Parker of bust!".  Now it's; "woo hoo, ninth pick!"

Congratulations, tankers . . . I guess.

I don't think a 9th pick is anyone's best case scenario, but I also doubt anyone who thinks that getting a top-5 pick in this draft believes the C's will remain at the 9th spot. There's no real separation yet, lotta basketball.

In that case, it's a little early for the tankers to be rejoicing.

That's OUR word.

Kidding...it is soooo early for anyone to be rejoicing in anything other than Jared Sullinger. And maybe Bradley, a little.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2014, 12:42:34 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Speaking of tanking... anyone rooting for the Bynum for Gasol trade?  Gasol would make the Cavs significantly better this year.  That'd be one less opponent in the tank race.

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2014, 12:44:35 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

That's cute, but it's a terrible analogy.  If that lady had said to seven year old me; "here's a marshmallow, there's a chance that I'll give you another marshmallow whether you eat that one or not, but if you don't eat it, there's a slightly higher chance that I'll give you another one," seven year old me would have eaten the marshmallow. 

What I've described is much closer to the Celtics current situation.  We really don't know if that second marshmallow is coming or where it's coming from, whether we tank or not. 

You are right.  I want the marshmallow.  Once I eat it, I'm counting on uncle Danny to get me another one.

I hear you.  I think we still have some disagreement over whether this is a big difference between a Top 8 pick in this draft vs the #15 pick.  I tend to think the pick itself has significant trade value if it falls within the Top 8 of this draft.  #15 pick... not so much.

Yes, I do disagree.  I think that a top three pick would give us a really good shot at getting a franchise player, a four or five pick would give us decent odds as well.  But, I think that once you move out of the top five, the draft--and this goes for any draft, good ones as well as bad ones--becomes more or less a crap shoot. 

You can land a good player at eight or you can land a good player at eighteen.  I think history has shown that the draft is nowhere near as exact a science as those rooting for ping pong balls would like it to be. 

We have a GM who has gotten us Rajon Rondo, Al Jefferson, Jared Sullinger, Tony Allen, Kendrick Perkins, and Avery Bradley all outside of the lottery. 

My take on this draft is that not only does it have a couple of potential superstars at the top, but it also has a lot of depth.  With two first round picks in it, I like our chances of coming away with a nice prize regardless of what record we finish up with. 

DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2014, 12:47:11 AM »

Offline Stizz44

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Philly, Bobcats, Nets, Bulls all win! Hawks lose!

Great night for us tankers!!!!!

Re: Tankers Rejoice
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2014, 12:55:34 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Quote
You can land a good player at eight or you can land a good player at eighteen.  I think history has shown that the draft is nowhere near as exact a science as those rooting for ping pong balls would like it to be. 

If you go back and look at every draft from the last 30 years, this is true in the letter but not in implication, at least the implication I got from what you said.

True: You can land a player at pick 8 or pick 18
False: you have about as good a chance of landing a good player at 8 as you do at 18

There is actually a pretty big discrepancy between the odds of landing a good play at 8 compared with landing a good player at 18. That's a tangential argument, Id be pretty annoyed if we suffered through a rebuilding year and only got an 8th overall, but it's a commonly made, 'well player x was picked at 18, and that just proves there is still talent at 18', because while it's true, it doesn't acknowledge there is a much better chance of getting a dud there as well. The counterpoint to this is 'Kwame Brown was a first overall, how did that turn out?', and it's no less of a false equivalency.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner