Tankers Rejoice

[LarBrd33]

"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

[D.o.s.]

In regards to the Marshmallow test;

I watch hoops to enjoy the aesthetics behind playing basketball, then to enjoy watching my team compete, and then to enjoy my team win. I root for a good, close games, where the Celtics emerge victorious.


As such, I tend to side with Drew Magary on this one (he's talking about football, but the idea applies here):

I watched the Vikings lose to the Ravens in the most Vikings-like way possible last Sunday and it was agony. They won, and then they lost, and then they won, and then they lost for good, because that's how the Vikings work. They wouldn't be the Vikings otherwise. They'd be some other, awesomer team. Anyway, I watched Vikes-Ravens from beginning to end even though, superficially speaking, the Vikings had "nothing" to play for. They were 3-8-1 with a lame-duck coach and three lame-duck quarterbacks. In theory, the only thing at stake when the Vikings played the Ravens in that snowstorm was their draft position. Their precious, precious draft position.

If the Vikings had won that game on Sunday, they could have theoretically screwed themselves out of a good draft pick, given that there's a raft of 4-9 teams waiting right behind them. Hop on Twitter during any game and you will hear fans of a [bad] team rooting for draft position, or consoling themselves after a loss by celebrating the maintenance of draft position. Six years ago, Bill Simmons coined the term "fantanking" for this exercise: the act of rooting against your own team for what you perceive as its long-term benefit. And you now see fantanking regularly as the NFL regular season comes to a close and [bad] teams burn off games.

Now here's the thing: If you are someone who is fantanking honestly, and not just [comforting] yourself after a tough loss, then you are a moron. You suck. You really, truly suck.

And I'm not saying this as some kind of moral scolding. I don't think I'm a better fan than you. (I know I'm not.) This is strictly a practical matter, because fantanking makes rooting for a football team an even greater waste of time than it already is. Mathematically speaking, your favorite sports team will play a LOT of supposedly meaningless games in your lifetime. They will make the playoffs only sporadically. They will win a title once in a blue moon, if at all. There's a lot of meaningless horse[stuff] in between all of that, and it make far more sense to CARE. It's more enjoyable to want your team to win every game, no matter what that game is, so that you can get the most out of your time with them.

[Nerf DPOY]

"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

I want us to lose and draft as high as possible, but I don't know if all the "anti-tankers" are as dimwitted as you try to present them to be. Everybody understands the logic(I think) that a higher pick offers a better chance at drafting a great player, but there have been other ways of putting a contender together that have been mentioned a million times in a million other threads on these boards over the last several months/years. Just look at Indiana, or Houston (if you can consider them a contender). Yes, we got Allen with the 5th pick, but traded for KG with Jefferson, the 15th pick.

And Hpantazo you're right. I'm maybe getting ahead of myself with Rondo. I just hope he gets back to at least near 100% at some point.

[LarBrd33]

In regards to the Marshmallow test;

I watch hoops to enjoy the aesthetics behind playing basketball, then to enjoy watching my team compete, and then to enjoy my team win. I root for a good, close games, where the Celtics emerge victorious.


As such, I tend to side with Drew Magary on this one (he's talking about football, but the idea applies here):

I watched the Vikings lose to the Ravens in the most Vikings-like way possible last Sunday and it was agony. They won, and then they lost, and then they won, and then they lost for good, because that's how the Vikings work. They wouldn't be the Vikings otherwise. They'd be some other, awesomer team. Anyway, I watched Vikes-Ravens from beginning to end even though, superficially speaking, the Vikings had "nothing" to play for. They were 3-8-1 with a lame-duck coach and three lame-duck quarterbacks. In theory, the only thing at stake when the Vikings played the Ravens in that snowstorm was their draft position. Their precious, precious draft position.

If the Vikings had won that game on Sunday, they could have theoretically screwed themselves out of a good draft pick, given that there's a raft of 4-9 teams waiting right behind them. Hop on Twitter during any game and you will hear fans of a [bad] team rooting for draft position, or consoling themselves after a loss by celebrating the maintenance of draft position. Six years ago, Bill Simmons coined the term "fantanking" for this exercise: the act of rooting against your own team for what you perceive as its long-term benefit. And you now see fantanking regularly as the NFL regular season comes to a close and [bad] teams burn off games.

Now here's the thing: If you are someone who is fantanking honestly, and not just [comforting] yourself after a tough loss, then you are a moron. You suck. You really, truly suck.

And I'm not saying this as some kind of moral scolding. I don't think I'm a better fan than you. (I know I'm not.) This is strictly a practical matter, because fantanking makes rooting for a football team an even greater waste of time than it already is. Mathematically speaking, your favorite sports team will play a LOT of supposedly meaningless games in your lifetime. They will make the playoffs only sporadically. They will win a title once in a blue moon, if at all. There's a lot of meaningless horse[stuff] in between all of that, and it make far more sense to CARE. It's more enjoyable to want your team to win every game, no matter what that game is, so that you can get the most out of your time with them.

I hear what Drew's saying, but he's not thinking about it straight.

I honestly believe if we land a Top 5 pick in this draft, it will dramatically improve the fortunes of this team.  It will dramatically impact how many games we win from 2015-2025.  I truly believe that we will win a lot less games from 2015-2025 if we make the playoffs this year.  It could mean the difference between 10 years of 35-42 wins... and 10 years of 50-60 wins.

People have argued with me that that line of thinking is wrong and that the draft isn't a sure thing.  Yeah... i got that, but also they are using random drafts to prove their point.  This is a transcendent draft with as many as 8 potential all-stars.  As proven in 2007... even a Top 5 pick in a "normal" draft was enough to land an all-star player.  A top 5 pick in this draft?... absolute gold.   So yes, I've thought it through... yes, I understand the value of trade chips.  And yes... I absolutely believe the best thing for us to do this year would be to bottom out.  I equate it to future success.

Sports is entertainment to me. I want to see Boston win as many games possible in my lifetime.  Watching them lose sucks.  Fans who want to watch them lose for the next decade, suck.   I'm like this with any entertainment.  If I want to see a movie about Robots fighting Monsters, I could just watch some B-Movie slapped together mediocre ripoff called "Atlantic Rim"... or I could have a little patience and wait a few days for "Pacific Rim" to come out.   I skip the B-Movie every time and wait for the blockbuster.  http://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/films/most-blatant-movie-rip-offs  ... I'm happy to skip this season and wait for the Celtic blockbuster.

I don't blame anyone for rooting for this sitting duck team to win nightly.  They would probably be comfortable with their 1 marshmallow and their decade of mediocrity.  I long ago realized this season was a necessary sacrifice for my long-term fandom.  Hold off on eating that Marshmallow now... and I should be looking at a far more entertaining team next season and beyond.  Marshmallow heaven.

[freshinthehouse]

It's painful but you have to be patient. I want ainge to make the best trade possible. The team isnt going anywhere this year anyway. This team is years away from making any significant noise in the playoffs.

I imagine that if the trade deadline passes an humphries is still a Celtic, he will probably see a lot less playing time, and just be a nice expiring contract at the end of the season. Until then,  he is playing well enough to earn the time, and might as well showcase him for a desperate team in February.

TP.  We may as well wait for the best possible offer for Humphries.  What does it hurt?  If no offer comes around we can either bench him or cut him.  Either way Sully and KO will get minutes.

[Onslaught]

Guys, this draft is way overrated.

[D.o.s.]

I hear what Drew's saying, but he's not thinking about it straight.

I honestly believe if we land a Top 5 pick in this draft, it will dramatically improve the fortunes of this team.  It will dramatically impact how many games we win from 2015-2025.  I truly believe that we will win a lot less games from 2015-2025 if we make the playoffs this year.  It could mean the difference between 10 years of 35-42 wins... and 10 years of 50-60 wins.

People have argued with me that that line of thinking is wrong and that the draft isn't a sure thing.  Yeah... i got that, but also they are using random drafts to prove their point.  This is a transcendent draft with as many as 8 potential all-stars.  As proven in 2007... even a Top 5 pick in a "normal" draft was enough to land an all-star player.  A top 5 pick in this draft?... absolute gold.   So yes, I've thought it through... yes, I understand the value of trade chips.  And yes... I absolutely believe the best thing for us to do this year would be to bottom out.  I equate it to future success.

Sports is entertainment to me. I want to see Boston win as many games possible in my lifetime.  Watching them lose sucks.  Fans who want to watch them lose for the next decade, suck.   I'm like this with any entertainment.  If I want to see a movie about Robots fighting Monsters, I could just watch some B-Movie slapped together mediocre ripoff called "Atlantic Rim"... or I could have a little patience and wait a few days for "Pacific Rim" to come out.   I skip the B-Movie every time and wait for the blockbuster.  http://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/films/most-blatant-movie-rip-offs  ... I'm happy to skip this season and wait for the Celtic blockbuster.

I don't blame anyone for rooting for this sitting duck team to win nightly.  They would probably be comfortable with their 1 marshmallow and their decade of mediocrity.  I long ago realized this season was a necessary sacrifice for my long-term fandom.  Hold off on eating that Marshmallow now... and I should be looking at a far more entertaining team next season and beyond. 

See, for me following sports is my job, so when I'm rooting for the Celtics while the game is on, I'm allowed a rare moment of reptile brain glory, totally bypassing the frontal cortex in a way that I don't get to do 99.999999% of the time. I don't care about draft picks, really, I don't care about getting my armchair GM on, really, and I certainly don't care about what moves the team could make to get better... while the game is on.

Afterwards? Yeah, sure, whatever. Bring on the Chad Ford and the Excel Spreadsheet of draft pick probability. During the game? That'd be like thinking about the potential eye color of your possible offspring during a recreational act of conception. Probably not the right time, and probably not the right place.

[SHAQATTACK]

Lakers blog fans also have reached the point of .......wishing for a 8 th pace seed is a waste of time........reading them wishing their team to loose an d Kobe to  take the year off is funny ........sounds like Rondo deal here......please stay out

Let's bent over , take our suppository  get it over with,   Bottom out, get a pic ,  make some trades and next year begin to rises from  the ashes


Tank goodness ........god bless all the tankers

[Clench123]

Lakers blog fans also have reached the point of .......wishing for a 8 th pace seed is a waste of time........reading them wishing their team to loose an d Kobe to  take the year off is funny ........sounds like Rondo deal here......please stay out

Let's bent over , take our suppository  get it over with,   Bottom out, get a pic ,  make some trades and next year begin to rises from  the ashes


Tank goodness ........god bless all the tankers

Amen

[LarBrd33]

I hear what Drew's saying, but he's not thinking about it straight.

I honestly believe if we land a Top 5 pick in this draft, it will dramatically improve the fortunes of this team.  It will dramatically impact how many games we win from 2015-2025.  I truly believe that we will win a lot less games from 2015-2025 if we make the playoffs this year.  It could mean the difference between 10 years of 35-42 wins... and 10 years of 50-60 wins.

People have argued with me that that line of thinking is wrong and that the draft isn't a sure thing.  Yeah... i got that, but also they are using random drafts to prove their point.  This is a transcendent draft with as many as 8 potential all-stars.  As proven in 2007... even a Top 5 pick in a "normal" draft was enough to land an all-star player.  A top 5 pick in this draft?... absolute gold.   So yes, I've thought it through... yes, I understand the value of trade chips.  And yes... I absolutely believe the best thing for us to do this year would be to bottom out.  I equate it to future success.

Sports is entertainment to me. I want to see Boston win as many games possible in my lifetime.  Watching them lose sucks.  Fans who want to watch them lose for the next decade, suck.   I'm like this with any entertainment.  If I want to see a movie about Robots fighting Monsters, I could just watch some B-Movie slapped together mediocre ripoff called "Atlantic Rim"... or I could have a little patience and wait a few days for "Pacific Rim" to come out.   I skip the B-Movie every time and wait for the blockbuster.  http://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/films/most-blatant-movie-rip-offs  ... I'm happy to skip this season and wait for the Celtic blockbuster.

I don't blame anyone for rooting for this sitting duck team to win nightly.  They would probably be comfortable with their 1 marshmallow and their decade of mediocrity.  I long ago realized this season was a necessary sacrifice for my long-term fandom.  Hold off on eating that Marshmallow now... and I should be looking at a far more entertaining team next season and beyond. 

See, for me following sports is my job, so when I'm rooting for the Celtics while the game is on, I'm allowed a rare moment of reptile brain glory, totally bypassing the frontal cortex in a way that I don't get to do 99.999999% of the time. I don't care about draft picks, really, I don't care about getting my armchair GM on, really, and I certainly don't care about what moves the team could make to get better... while the game is on.

Afterwards? Yeah, sure, whatever. Bring on the Chad Ford and the Excel Spreadsheet of draft pick probability. During the game? That'd be like thinking about the potential eye color of your possible offspring during a recreational act of conception. Probably not the right time, and probably not the right place.

My fandom doesn't waver when I'm rooting for them to bottom out.  If anything, I'm more in tune with my franchise, more involved with watching the games and interacting with my fellow fans during the tank years. 

Interesting, I vaguely remember seeing a quote in 2008 from Jeff or someone who helps run Celticblog.  They were basically saying that there was more traffic to the blog and forum when the team sucked.  More things to talk about.  More potential trades to discuss.  More things to debate about.  Someone can confirm, but I'm pretty sure once they started winning the Celticsblog traffic took a major hit.

If you're looking at CEltic fandom from the aspect of entertainment... The Boston Celtics probably take up twice as much of my allotted "entertainment" time when they are tanking than when they are winning.  When they are winning I just have a 2 hour game every couple days... then maybe a trip to Celticsblog once a week to reiterate "yup, we're really good". 

That's not to say that I prefer the tank years.  It's just a commentary on the facets of sports entertainment.  I'm completely comfortable with rooting for this team to bottom out this year.  I'll be entertained by the Celtics this year regardless.  This is slightly being meta, but the fact that 150 people are reading this thread at this very moment... on a non-game day and weekend, no less... proves that this season is entertaining as hell.  And heading forward, I believe that bottoming out would result in a far better product on the floor for the next decade.  More enjoyable games to watch.  More potential wins to cheer for.

[BballTim]

The upcoming stretch may be the roughest of the season, but February looks to be a breeze by comparison. Only 12 games but the only playoff teams (if season ended today) are the Mavs, Spurs, Suns, and Hawks. Also, who knows how the Suns and Hawks will look by mid to late Feb? Throw in a possibly 100% Rondo,...oh I don't even want to think about what could happen....we could go 7-5.

Edit: Only 11 games in February.

Rondo won't be 100% until next season. No player who returned from acl surgery has ever been anywhere close to 100% until at least 4-5 months after returning to game action.

Just a few examples, Rose sucked when he came back this year, and he was out a lot longer than Rondo. Shumpert is just now this week finally showing signs of returning to his pre-injury self. Perk never returned to his pre-acl self, and neither did Josh Howard, or Leon Powe, or countless other players. Those who did, took about a season of NBA action to do so.

King LeBron James himself could descend from the heavens and join this Celtic team... and I still think they would struggle to contend.  If the 2nd best player on your team is 21 year old Jared Sullinger, you're probably not going very far.

If Rondo looks great when he returns, I still think it just expedites his ticket out of here.  This very much is a team built for the future.   Sully, Oly, Bradley, two 2014 picks, two 2015 picks, etc... 27 year olds don't really fit with the long-view of this squad.

  You're probably more likely listing trade assets as the long term future of the team. It's fairly unlikely that Danny (and Wyc) are going to want to stay out of the playoffs for a long rebuild. It makes sense to try and add to Rondo before you throw in the towel and try to rebuild through the draft.

[Lucky17]

"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

Nice strawman. Let me try:

Pro-tankers would have you think that this lottery contains not one, but several franchise messiahs, any of whom will magically grant their teams a legitimate chance of a title within their first few years of entering the league--and not one, not two, not three, but several banners before they hang up their ethereal sneakers.

And despite the vagaries of chance, and the significant head starts for the bottom that Orlando, Utah, and Milwaukee all currently enjoy, all the Celtics have to do is lose--at whatever cost--and the future of the club will be incandescently bright. Sure, they may need to gut the roster via a serious of trades that bring back pennies on the dollar, but it's going to be worth it when Banner Twenty gets raised on Opening Night 2018.

How'd I do?

[LarBrd33]

"Anti-Tankers" want us to limp into the playoffs as a losing team (say 34 wins, for instance) only to get curb-stomped by Indiana, simply because they want to feel the rush of 4 or 5 playoff games.  They are either clinging to this delusion that a 34 win Celtic team can shock the world (like the 44 win 76er team who upset 1st seed Chicago in 2012 after Rose got injured.. then subsequently missed the playoffs the next two years) or they just really really really want to watch 4 playoff games NOW.  NOW NOW NOW.

Pretty sure those folks would have failed the Marshmallow Test as children: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_oy9614HQ

Boys and girls, you can either have one Marshmallow now (one playoff series)  ... or you can wait (tank) and have two marshmallows (a proper foundation built around one of the elite prospects in this draft and the rest of our youth... resulting in perhaps a decade of contention)

Nice strawman. Let me try:

Pro-tankers would have you think that this lottery contains not one, but several franchise messiahs, any of whom will magically grant their teams a legitimate chance of a title within their first few years of entering the league--and not one, not two, not three, but several banners before they hang up their ethereal sneakers.

And despite the vagaries of chance, and the significant head starts for the bottom that Orlando, Utah, and Milwaukee all currently enjoy, all the Celtics have to do is lose--at whatever cost--and the future of the club will be incandescently bright. Sure, they may need to gut the roster via a serious of trades that bring back pennies on the dollar, but it's going to be worth it when Banner Twenty gets raised on Opening Night 2018.

How'd I do?

No actually let's put it this way.

Let's say there's 6 guys in this draft everyone really really loves:  Embiid, Parker, Wiggins, Smart, Randle, Exum.

Let's forget about the aspect of wanting trades... Let's say that all the rosters say exactly the same between now and the end of the season.  Rondo, Bass, Lee, etc all stay.

There's currently 2 games separating the team with the 6th worst record and the team with the 8th seed/#15 pick.  Just a mere 2 games.  It's massive parity.  Everyone from the 5th seed down sucks.  There's a mere 5 games separating the 5th seed (14-16 Washington) and the team with the 3rd worst record in the league (10-23 Orlando).   It's a disaster conference with interchangeable pieces... none of which (Washington, Detroit, Chicago, Bobcats, Celtics, Cavs, 76ers, Nets, Knicks, Magic) actually stand a chance of winning a championship this year.

Completely interchangeable teams that will either make the playoffs by default as "also-rans"... or make the lottery.   Question is, would you rather be in the position of Washington, Detroit, Chicago and Charlotte (currently projected to make the playoffs and pick #15-18) ... or would you rather have a shot at one of those 6 studs in the draft? 

Or a more to-the-point question.  Would you rather have the 6th worst record in the league and come away with either Embiid, Parker, Wiggins, Smart, Randle, Exum... or would you rather be 2 games better and make the playoffs?  Which improves your long-term enjoyment more?

If you had a choice... do you go with making the playoffs and trying your luck with some unknown draft prospects?  Or would you rather skip the playoffs this year and add Dante Exum to your rebuilding assets?

[Lucky17]

You conflate an anti-tanking stance with wanting to make the playoffs. That's your problem.

Your definition of "tanking" is not shared by all.

[LarBrd33]

You conflate an anti-tanking stance with wanting to make the playoffs. That's your problem.

Your definition of "tanking" is not shared by all.

Yeah to be clear, I don't think the players or coach should throw games.  I think Danny already did the work for them.  I just can't honestly say that I'd be happy about making the playoffs with 34 wins.