Celtics interested in Amare

[Lucky17]

The other argument that goes along the same lines as yours means we have enough room for 2 max free agents PLUS Rondo's new deal when Rondo hits free agency...essentially having enough room for a new big 3.

Terrific. Well, assuming Rondo doesn't decide to go somewhere else closer to contending than a collection of Courtney Lee, Jeff Green, a bevy of players with less than 3 years experience, and whatever free agents can be persuaded to sign in Boston. BTW, because you still have Lee and Green on the roster, there's not enough cap space for two max free agents, plus Rondo.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2015-nba-free-agents

Which two would you like? Think you're convincing Aldridge and Love to come to Boston? Think again.

Ainge has never been a big fan of using free agency to (re)build a team. Finding a key piece, yes, but not rebuilding. And as LC mentioned, putting everything into a single course of action also seems counter to Ainge's philosophy. Trading Hump and Wallace for Amare basically paints the Celtics into a corner until that contract expires.

[LooseCannon]

I think Ainge would be interested in trading for a 2015 free agent when he has a year left on his contract.  If the price is right, of course.

As the Howard/Bynum/Iguodala deal showed, that is a risky proposition, but if you are dubious about a free agent wanting to come to Boston, having a year to convince the guy may give the greatest chance of success.

Is it wrong to root for Zach Randolph to fall off a cliff and suddenly look old (even though he looks fine right now) so that Memphis decides Marc Gasol is too old to re-build around and start shopping both guys next off-season?

[aporel#18]

I think Ainge would be interested in trading for a 2015 free agent when he has a year left on his contract.  If the price is right, of course.

As the Howard/Bynum/Iguodala deal showed, that is a risky proposition, but if you are dubious about a free agent wanting to come to Boston, having a year to convince the guy may give the greatest chance of success.

Is it wrong to root for Zach Randolph to fall off a cliff and suddenly look old (even though he looks fine right now) so that Memphis decides Marc Gasol is too old to re-build around and start shopping both guys next off-season?

TP. Maybe it's wrong... if it's a crime, then I'm guilty 

That seems to be the best path to get a star big to pair with Rondo, and terrible contracts like Stat's or maybe Boozer or Perkins could help to strike gold in 2014-2015.

[chambers]

The other argument that goes along the same lines as yours means we have enough room for 2 max free agents PLUS Rondo's new deal when Rondo hits free agency...essentially having enough room for a new big 3.

Terrific. Well, assuming Rondo doesn't decide to go somewhere else closer to contending than a collection of Courtney Lee, Jeff Green, a bevy of players with less than 3 years experience, and whatever free agents can be persuaded to sign in Boston. BTW, because you still have Lee and Green on the roster, there's not enough cap space for two max free agents, plus Rondo.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2015-nba-free-agents

Which two would you like? Think you're convincing Aldridge and Love to come to Boston? Think again.

Ainge has never been a big fan of using free agency to (re)build a team. Finding a key piece, yes, but not rebuilding. And as LC mentioned, putting everything into a single course of action also seems counter to Ainge's philosophy. Trading Hump and Wallace for Amare basically paints the Celtics into a corner until that contract expires.

There would be 23 million+ Rondo's 12 million which is 35 million.
With our pile of picks moving Lee and Green doesn't have to be too hard. If Sully or Olynyk become hald decent ala Jefferson then I'm sure some team will take back some salary and picks to get their hands on them.

 I don't know about Aldridge or Love but what are we doing with the free agent class in 2014? Are Lebron or Melo coming here? I mean maybe Rudy Gay or Deng are there but is Danny fighting other squads like the Bobcats and Sacramento for Rudy Gay at 15 million a year?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2014-nba-free-agents

It also depends who we pick this season. If we do get a top 5 pick and get a small forward I suppose we go after centres and PF's in free agency.  Vice Versa if we draft a 7 footer.

Acquiring assets is also Danny's strategy and taking back Amare and Shumper for Humphries and Wallace gives us a nice asset in Shumpert whilst also guaranteeing us a worse team on the floor in a tank/development year.
Shumpert+better lottery pick+one less year of Wallace can't be a negative result.
All I'm saying is there's no given road to take here- but seeing what Danny does makes predicting his plan slightly easier.

[ssspence]

Next season, trading Wallace will be easier than trading Amare.

Trading Amare next year will be easier than trading him this year and yet, if the trade were to occur, the Knicks would be able to pull it off, so I don't see where trading Amare next year would be easier than trading Wallace.

GSW traded over $20 million in expiring contracts away in one trade last off season.

Just do not agree with you here LC.

Look at team payrolls across the league for 2014-15, and try to come up with a feasible trade that involves Amare's $23 million contract. It's not easy at all. Sacramento so far is the only potential partner that I've found.

Why do we even have to trade Amare's contract? Just let it expire.

Right. There's two schools of thought here -- those with patience, and those without. Patience is almost certainly the best path -- who actually believes the Cs are going to have a meaningful team before 2015-16? -- and any way you slice it, the Cs are not going to be able to make high impact deals (unless they trade Rondo) until at least a year from now. But, I get that the desire to win now -- it seems to me most Csbloggers are angling for vet addition trades over the first part of this season.

Lost in all this 'flexibility' discussion are a few key points.

1) When it's highly unlikely the Cs will trade either of the picks they have in the 2014 draft, who is the star player that the Cs are going to get for Humphries before this year's deadline? I'm open to an objective suggestion or two here, but I've poked around on this, and I don't see it.

2) A key reason the Cs don't want to add expensive veterans via FA or trade this year or this summer is to play young guys -- turn them into NBA starters. We're going to see a ton of KO, Sully, Bradley, even Pressey this year -- regardless of their impact on W/Ls -- and at the expense of average-to-good veterans who are well paid and might squeeze out a couple more (meaningless) wins. The same holds true for next year, when our 2 1st round picks are gonna play -- a lot. Ainge won't sacrifice the cap flex that's coming in 2015-16 by adding lateral veterans between now and the 2015 trade deadline.

3) Assuming the Cs qualify offer Crawford (and he takes it -- both likely, IMO), the Cs will have Bass and Crawford on expiring deals next year, which adds up to about $10mil. Rondo will also be on an expiring deal. So I don't see how the Cs are handcuffed in trades in 2014-15 at all. I assume that if the Cs traded for Stat they would feel pretty sure he would simply expire next year, and they'd be thrilled about that.

4) If the Cs did try to trade Amare, they wouldn't have to match his salary in a trade -- as I understand it, their incoming value can be $5mil less, or $18.4mil. 

In summary, i think most folks here want to add better players now. I don't think the Cs want to -- they want to shed salary and add picks or guys on rookie contracts. The Amare deal would shed Wallace, which again I believe is very high up their priority list.

[More Banners]

Our need is a scoring SG and a starting C.

Amare ain't the center, and taking on his contract is too high a price for getting Shump. I'd like to find a way to get Shump though.

[Lucky17]

Right. There's two schools of thought here -- those with patience, and those without. Patience is almost certainly the best path -- who actually believes the Cs are going to have a meaningful team before 2015-16? -- and any way you slice it, the Cs are not going to be able to make high impact deals (unless they trade Rondo) until at least a year from now. But, I get that the desire to win now -- it seems to me most Csbloggers are angling for vet addition trades over the first part of this season.

It's funny you mention patience, because I see dumping Humphries and Wallace (and no other long term commitments) at the first opportunity is a rush to action.

Ainge should sit back this season, let the kids play, and survey the landscape for trade opportunities of all kinds this winter. Trading for Amare before the end of February bars the doors for other trades this season, and next.

Lost in all this 'flexibility' discussion are a few key points.

1) When it's highly unlikely the Cs will trade either of the picks they have in the 2014 draft, who is the star player that the Cs are going to get for Humphries before this year's deadline? I'm open to an objective suggestion or two here, but I've poked around on this, and I don't see it.

Celtics have other picks and assets to offer up besides 2014 picks. We're not even 15 games into the season. Come the end of January, there will be plenty of trade chatter about teams looking to change course, disgruntled stars, etc.

2) A key reason the Cs don't want to add expensive veterans via FA or trade this year or this summer is to play young guys -- turn them into NBA starters. We're going to see a ton of KO, Sully, Bradley, even Pressey this year -- regardless of their impact on W/Ls -- and at the expense of average-to-good veterans who are well paid and might squeeze out a couple more (meaningless) wins. The same holds true for next year, when our 2 1st round picks are gonna play -- a lot. Ainge won't sacrifice the cap flex that's coming in 2015-16 by adding lateral veterans between now and the 2015 trade deadline.

I don't believe this is necessarily year one of a two year tank. Ainge has the assets right now to change course quickly for a resurgent 2014-15 squad, if the right deals come along.

And, again, I don't believe Ainge will look to rebuild the team through free agency. He's never publicly put much stock in that kind of strategy. Using cap space to accumulate assets, perhaps. He'll rebuild the team through trades like Garnett and Allen deals.

3) Assuming the Cs qualify offer Crawford (and he takes it -- both likely, IMO), the Cs will have Bass and Crawford on expiring deals next year, which adds up to about $10mil. Rondo will also be on an expiring deal. So I don't see how the Cs are handcuffed in trades in 2014-15 at all. I assume that if the Cs traded for Stat they would feel pretty sure he would simply expire next year, and they'd be thrilled about that.

Trading for Stat means the payroll jumps north of $70 million next year, with the rookies from 2014, Bradley's new deal, and everyone else currently on contract. Basically, it's Amare, Rondo, Bass, Lee, and Green, plus the kiddie corps. Very little flexibility to work trades that don't bring back future salary (because in your scenario, Ainge wants cap space).

4) If the Cs did try to trade Amare, they wouldn't have to match his salary in a trade -- as I understand it, their incoming value can be $5mil less, or $18.4mil. 

True, you don't need an exact match of salaries.

In summary, i think most folks here want to add better players now. I don't think the Cs want to -- they want to shed salary and add picks or guys on rookie contracts. The Amare deal would shed Wallace, which again I believe is very high up their priority list.

My preference is to wait for the best possible deal to move Wallace. If that happens to be next season, so be it.

Any trade of Wallace that complicates trading any of this current season's expiring contracts, or using the Nets TE, should be very carefully considered, IMO.

[Lucky17]

If the Celtics are truly considering trading for Amare, I'd hope that they offload as much future salary commitment as possible to recoup some sort of wiggle room to make additional deals.

Something like Lee, Wallace, and Bogans and Brooks to keep the Celtics under the LT threshold.

And, I'd also hope that they could get Shumpert out of it, and flip him to a third team for a pick (or else send out more salary to stay out of the luxury tax).

Still, that kind of move would probably preclude using both Humphries and the TE to improve the roster. Not enough room under the LT threshold in 2014-15 to do both, unless Ainge goes for a blockbuster or dumps Bass or Green.

[ssspence]

Nice thorough response, Lucky17.

~ my position remains that Wallace is virtually untradable -- even next year -- without Rondo carrying the deal. So i'm for doing it if it takes nothing more than Humphries or Bass, even if it's just for shedding one year of him. So, to me, it's a smart move for the long term.

~ I don't follow the math on our payroll next year. I get around $60mil before Avery + picks, assuming we qualify Crawford (if we keep Crawford) and Pressey, and assuming we don't dump anyone further this season (that's a big if).

~ Who is the impact player they're trading Humphries for? I can't find a single guy that I think is going to truly make this team 'win now' between now and the end of next season; who is likely to be available; who the Cs would actually want; and who they couldn't use Bogans and say Crawford for. Any suggestions?

[Lucky17]

~ I don't follow the math on our payroll next year. I get around $60mil before Avery + picks, assuming we qualify Crawford (if we keep Crawford) and Pressey, and assuming we don't dump anyone further this season (that's a big if).

http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/celtics.jsp

I'm basing my figures on the assumption that it's Hump + Wallace for Amare. That's a net increase on next year's numbers of $13 million. In guaranteed contracts, that's $63 million by my quick estimate, before adding Bradley, and two 2014 rookies, one of whom should have a 1st year salary of somewhere between $2 and $3.5 million. Assuming a total commitment of $3.5 mil for the two rookies, and bringing back Pressey, that's about $67.5 million before we add in Bradley (and Crawford?). Signing Bradley to a new deal somewhere between the QO of $3.5 and say $6 million (I'd heard that number come up recently), and the C's are clearly over the $70 mil mark, and within spitting distance of the LT threshold.

~ Who is the impact player they're trading Humphries for? I can't find a single guy that I think is going to truly make this team 'win now' between now and the end of next season; who is likely to be available; who the Cs would actually want; and who they couldn't use Bogans and say Crawford for. Any suggestions?

I'm not thinking so much of a single win-now guy, but additional assets. For instance, Boston could be the broker in a three-team deal that helps a contender land an important piece. Or, Ainge could use Humphries to take back a 2-year deal from a team desperate to clear $8-$10 million in cap space for next year, at the cost of a prospect or future pick. I have no clue what Ainge thinks of Rudy Gay, Eric Gordon, Josh Smith, Ben Gordon, or Omer Asik, but all of those guys' names are just a few that have currently or may soon pop up again in all sorts of trade rumors. With the Hump contract, Boston can be a player at the deadline, even if they're not necessarily adding one of those guys.

[crownontherocks]

Is Wallace, Humphries for Stoudemire a possibility?

The Knicks may be out of luck when it comes to acquiring Celtics guard Rajon Rondo from the Celtics, but according to one report, there may still be life for a trade between the two teams involving other players.

As you may be aware, the 3-8 Knicks have more issues than Rondo can fix anyways. They also lack big men.

The ones they have - Amare Stoudemire and Kenyon Martin - aren't getting much playing time, and according Bleacher Report, Stoudemire could be playing more minutes for the Knicks, but they simply aren't allowing him.

But perhaps Stoudemire's playing time will come on the Celtics.

According to Bleacher Report's source, the Celtics might be willing to trade Gerald Wallace and seldom-used Kris Humphries to the Knicks for Amare Stoudemire.

Yes, Stoudemire has massive amounts of money - $21.7 million and $23.4 million, respectively - left on his two-year deal, but the key is that it's only two years.

Wallace's contract has an extra year on it, so by trading him away the C's have more money freed up for the 2015-16 season. Also, the C's clearly will be worse this season without Wallace, if the goal is to maximize losses.

But like Humphries, who is a distant last on the team's big-man depth chart, there's no future in Boston for Stoudemire. Celtics coach Brad Stevens has made it clear that he's going to play his younger players - the ones who he may still be coaching a few years down the road.

Stoudemire could run into the same problems in Boston that he has in New York, and it wouldn't be long before the C's had yet another recently-acquired disgruntled player on their roster.

The same report also said the Celtics "plan on stinking in 2014-15 anyway". Celtics GM Danny Ainge shot down the rumor Thursday on 98.5 The Sports Hub's Toucher and Rich:

“I don’t like to address rumors, but there is just not a lot of integrity in the media,” said Ainge. “I don’t believe there is a source close to the team that said that. I believe there is a lot of things that are made up today in the desperate world of competition in the media. I don’t want to throw every media person under the bus; there are some great people in the media with a great deal of integrity. But there is so much garbage, and someone close to the Celtics would never say that.

“Those kind of rumors can be damaging and they start a lot of talk that is unnecessary and wastes a lot of time,” said Ainge. “There are so many people out there I don’t even know who half these guys are.”



http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/wallace-humphries-stoudemire-possibility?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo


Sorry if this was already posted