Author Topic: Rondo will make this team better.  (Read 7359 times)

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Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2013, 02:15:45 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It would be really helpful for me (and the rest of the peanut gallery) if we could have some video or even some box scores of when these kind of situations occur.

  It's never that he actually fails, per se, just that he could under certain imagined scenarios. Like taking a great shooter (Ray) out of the lineup affected his game to the point that he went on the 2nd longest double-digit assist streak in nba history.


He had actual scoring threats then and he has the skills to do that.


He will still have those same skills, but not the horses around him to really take advantage of it.

  He's one of the best transition players in the league but he hasn't had players that could run with him for quite some time. He's great at passing to players who can finish off a lob or score in some traffic (like Wilcox, Shaq or a younger KG) but he hasn't had players like that for quite some time. He should just take advantage of those skills now, or maybe score somewhat more aggressively during the season (like he does in the playoffs).

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2013, 02:57:41 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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It would be really helpful for me (and the rest of the peanut gallery) if we could have some video or even some box scores of when these kind of situations occur.

  It's never that he actually fails, per se, just that he could under certain imagined scenarios. Like taking a great shooter (Ray) out of the lineup affected his game to the point that he went on the 2nd longest double-digit assist streak in nba history.


He had actual scoring threats then and he has the skills to do that.


He will still have those same skills, but not the horses around him to really take advantage of it.

  He's one of the best transition players in the league but he hasn't had players that could run with him for quite some time. He's great at passing to players who can finish off a lob or score in some traffic (like Wilcox, Shaq or a younger KG) but he hasn't had players like that for quite some time. He should just take advantage of those skills now, or maybe score somewhat more aggressively during the season (like he does in the playoffs).


He could, if there were players that drew defenders from the paint.



And honestly, that one play doesn't win games. 


And Rondo is much better then "lob thrower".  He just needs the space and scorers around him.


Running the Clippers with Redz.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2013, 05:23:29 PM »

Online triboy16f

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?

  That's not really evidence of anything.

Your dancing around the question.
If he cant get the clutch assists, how is be effective on the floor? If top teams layoff off of him, congest the paint, dare him to shoot the 18 ft jumpers, has he made them?

You know where iam going with this.
Quote
Carmelo Anthony: "I want to win. I don't care about the money"

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2013, 06:01:05 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?

  That's not really evidence of anything.

Your dancing around the question.
If he cant get the clutch assists, how is be effective on the floor? If top teams layoff off of him, congest the paint, dare him to shoot the 18 ft jumpers, has he made them?

You know where iam going with this.

This sounds like weird hypotheticals.

My kid sees something exciting on cartoons and asks me, "Dad, what would it be like if people could fly?"   And I answer, "Well son, then people would be flying."

You are asking about a hypothetical situation that hasn't arisen yet.   So far, in the past, when teams have laid off of Rondo, or tried to go under screens, it hasn't worked for various reasons (he's still made the passes, he's still driven around them and he's on occasion just shot and made the mid-range jumper).

Yes, that was with Pierce, Garnett, etc., around him.

We don't know if Rondo will still be able to get 'assists' in those situations with this team because we don't know if his new surrounding cast will complete the shots at the same rates.

We can predict based on shooting percentages that they'll likely make some of them.   But whether they will make them at the same rate, lower or more -- impossible to know.

This cast will probably not nail long-range 2s at the rate that KG did.  Or 3PTers-off-kickouts like Pierce & Allen.   But it also has more active cutters like Green, Bradley & Lee.  And it has more guys who post-up down low like Sully & Olynyk.

Green certainly has shown himself capable of making those 'clutch shots'.

So they will likely do better on some shots and worse on others. 

No way to know how the overall assist rates will turn out.

But not knowing is not evidence that it will be worse.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2013, 06:23:32 PM »

Offline BballTim

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?

  That's not really evidence of anything.

Your dancing around the question.
If he cant get the clutch assists, how is be effective on the floor? If top teams layoff off of him, congest the paint, dare him to shoot the 18 ft jumpers, has he made them?

You know where iam going with this.

  Where you should be going with this is "why haven't teams thought of this before?". Teams dare him to shoot 18 footers all the time. That doesn't stop him from passing the ball or getting into the lane. And what's with all the "top teams" nonsense? If there's any player in the league that's known for excelling against top teams it's Rondo.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2013, 06:52:23 PM »

Online triboy16f

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?

  That's not really evidence of anything.

Your dancing around the question.
If he cant get the clutch assists, how is be effective on the floor? If top teams layoff off of him, congest the paint, dare him to shoot the 18 ft jumpers, has he made them?

You know where iam going with this.

This sounds like weird hypotheticals.

My kid sees something exciting on cartoons and asks me, "Dad, what would it be like if people could fly?"   And I answer, "Well son, then people would be flying."

You are asking about a hypothetical situation that hasn't arisen yet.   So far, in the past, when teams have laid off of Rondo, or tried to go under screens, it hasn't worked for various reasons (he's still made the passes, he's still driven around them and he's on occasion just shot and made the mid-range jumper).

Yes, that was with Pierce, Garnett, etc., around him.

We don't know if Rondo will still be able to get 'assists' in those situations with this team because we don't know if his new surrounding cast will complete the shots at the same rates.

We can predict based on shooting percentages that they'll likely make some of them.   But whether they will make them at the same rate, lower or more -- impossible to know.

This cast will probably not nail long-range 2s at the rate that KG did.  Or 3PTers-off-kickouts like Pierce & Allen.   But it also has more active cutters like Green, Bradley & Lee.  And it has more guys who post-up down low like Sully & Olynyk.

Green certainly has shown himself capable of making those 'clutch shots'.

So they will likely do better on some shots and worse on others. 

No way to know how the overall assist rates will turn out.

But not knowing is not evidence that it will be worse.

You took my question and spun it away from Rondo's responsiblity

So basically its not up to Rondo in that situation. It's up to the guys he's surrounded with. If they miss than its not Rondos fault. 
Quote
Carmelo Anthony: "I want to win. I don't care about the money"

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2013, 06:56:17 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?

  That's not really evidence of anything.

Your dancing around the question.
If he cant get the clutch assists, how is be effective on the floor? If top teams layoff off of him, congest the paint, dare him to shoot the 18 ft jumpers, has he made them?

You know where iam going with this.

This sounds like weird hypotheticals.

My kid sees something exciting on cartoons and asks me, "Dad, what would it be like if people could fly?"   And I answer, "Well son, then people would be flying."

You are asking about a hypothetical situation that hasn't arisen yet.   So far, in the past, when teams have laid off of Rondo, or tried to go under screens, it hasn't worked for various reasons (he's still made the passes, he's still driven around them and he's on occasion just shot and made the mid-range jumper).

Yes, that was with Pierce, Garnett, etc., around him.

We don't know if Rondo will still be able to get 'assists' in those situations with this team because we don't know if his new surrounding cast will complete the shots at the same rates.

We can predict based on shooting percentages that they'll likely make some of them.   But whether they will make them at the same rate, lower or more -- impossible to know.

This cast will probably not nail long-range 2s at the rate that KG did.  Or 3PTers-off-kickouts like Pierce & Allen.   But it also has more active cutters like Green, Bradley & Lee.  And it has more guys who post-up down low like Sully & Olynyk.

Green certainly has shown himself capable of making those 'clutch shots'.

So they will likely do better on some shots and worse on others. 

No way to know how the overall assist rates will turn out.

But not knowing is not evidence that it will be worse.

You took my question and spun it away from Rondo's responsiblity

So basically its not up to Rondo in that situation. It's up to the guys he's surrounded with. If they miss than its not Rondos fault.

So ... If they miss ... is it Rondo's fault?

Your logic is subtle, nuanced, ephemeral.  It escapes me.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2013, 11:13:09 PM »

Offline BballTim

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

  Are you saying that you don't think other teams watch videos of Rondo, and somehow aren't familiar with his game? Or are you claiming that teams don't lay off of Rondo and dare him to shoot?

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2013, 11:20:33 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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Like BBallT said

Rondo is solid
best believe teams figured
how to shut him down

but it will take more than



to stop him

 

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