Author Topic: Rondo will make this team better.  (Read 14756 times)

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Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2013, 01:23:04 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Why don't you give us the example of when Rondo took a team like we see now and made them a playoff team?


 

Keep that question in mind for the end of this season. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2013, 01:25:55 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Really?  To me the pull up three is the most soulless shot in basketball. 
But it can look soooooooooo gooooooooood.

Although the stepback fadeaway is still, and will probably always be, the prettiest shot in the game.

To me, nothing beats a one handed, off the dribble bounce pass from close to mid court through two or three defenders that sits up perfectly and finds a teammate at the rim for an easy lay up.  Now that's pretty.

Agreed, but that's not a shot.

I JUST WANT OUR POINT GOD BACK.
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Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2013, 01:26:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Of course he makes them better.


The better question:  Does this team help Rondo be better?



I don't think it does.  Rondo can still be good, but because of his game as a pass first PG, I don't think the team will allow him to be great.  He needs better weapons.

Disagree completely with your assessment.


Why?   Who is the good (I am not even looking for great at the moment) offensive player that gets even better with Rondo?   Who are the spot up shooter to make teams pay when Rondo penetrates?  (or at least spreads the floor)

  So you're claiming that you don't see any players on the current roster that would benefit from getting easier scoring opportunities?

This roster is not filled with great shooters, that's when Rondo is at his best.  They have pick and pop with Bass and that's about it?  Last year he had Bass, KG, Pierce and JET.  This year he has Bass?  Who is going to consistently knock down shots, whether they are good looks or not?

  When you say "that's when Rondo is at his best", what are you basing that on? Can you show that Rondo's been unable to succeed without certain players on the court?


Can you show me the pass first PG who did not have a good outside shot (though Rondo has improved on his) that was at their "best" when surrounded by at best, decent offensive players and no real outside threat?

  Why don't you come up with a list of point guards with average or worse outside shots that do everything else on offense as well as Rondo and we'll go from there.

Because lets be honest, Rondo has been blessed with good shooters and good offensive players.  That's a positive thing for a PG that plays like he does.  He hasn't ever been hampered by the beginnings of a rebuild.



Now, the team needs him to be more of an AI?  Does Rondo even have the offensive weapons that AI had when he was considered the only weapon on a team that made the finals?



(and no, I would not want an AI player instead of Rondo)

  Right now the only reason Boston isn't at least average on offense is too many turnovers. Where's the evidence that we need AI on offense?


AI's teams were average on offense when he wasn't playing as well.   Someone has to take shots and someone will make baskets.  They are still pros. 






Why don't you give us the example of when Rondo took a team like we see now and made them a playoff team?



Of course you can't because he never has been handcuffed like he will be with this team. 


Jason Kidd has some bad teams when there were no good options for him to pass to.   Same with Steve Nash.

  I'm not sure the point of that. Players like Wade, Kobe and LeBron have been on teams that have missed the playoffs before. So what?

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2013, 01:27:30 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Really?  To me the pull up three is the most soulless shot in basketball. 
But it can look soooooooooo gooooooooood.

Although the stepback fadeaway is still, and will probably always be, the prettiest shot in the game.

To me, nothing beats a one handed, off the dribble bounce pass from close to mid court through two or three defenders that sits up perfectly and finds a teammate at the rim for an easy lay up.  Now that's pretty.

Agreed, but that's not a shot.

I JUST WANT OUR POINT GOD BACK.

Amen. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2013, 01:28:20 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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LeBron hasn't missed the playoffs since, I think, his sexond season in the league and I 'm not sure Wade has when he's played 60+ Games.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2013, 01:28:58 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Carmelo's never missed the playoffs.

Norris Cole has a ring for every year he's been in the league.

I would trade Rajon Rondo's injured status for prime Allen Iverson's neigh-invincibility.

Can a team have too many pass-first players?
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Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2013, 01:38:24 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?


Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2013, 01:43:54 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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It would be really helpful for me (and the rest of the peanut gallery) if we could have some video or even some box scores of when these kind of situations occur.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2013, 01:48:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

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There are many fans that believe Rondo is so good that he will lob the ball to mediocre players who will then slam down dunks all night.  I am not one of those who buy this.  I think Rondo is going to have a much tougher time on a weaker team.  His MO is actually to dribble around a lot because once he is off the ball, his man sags and Rondo just stands in the corner on near the basketball.

I don't think Rondo is going to play all that much better than what Crawford played though the 4 wins (I don't think Crawford will keep that up either).  Rondo will be an upgrade, no doubt and will allow either Crawford or Bradley to come off the bench, improving our depth considerably (meaning Rondo's minutes replace Pressey minutes).  I just really don't see Rondo carrying the team to another level.

I agree with some of the pts made. Though rondo unlike jcraw has the ability to drive past his defender at will and either score a layup or make the pass. IF teams are smart and watch videos they will just lay off rondo and dare him to shoot. And if that doesnt fall we are in trouble(assuming everyone else is guarded tightly) plus we dont have a pp or ray allen.

We will be a better team now when rondo comesback but he prob cant us to another level. If this means we should trade him or get more help soon im just as clueless as the next fan

Backing off Rondo and daring him to shoot doesn't really work.  Part of that is his improved mid range jump shot, but more important is the fact that even when guys go under picks or back off him when he has the ball in his hands, he still gets in the lane, he still finds open guys, and he still makes plays.  You can even make the argument that when the defender plays Rondo by giving him a lot of space, it just makes it easier for him to pick the defense apart. 

The notion that all you have to do is play off Rondo and you render him ineffective is pure mythology.

Its not a myth. Why do you think rondo is so ineffective in scoring in 4th quarter against top teams?

They lay off and dare him to beat them with his jump shot. I dont remember the last time rondo crushed a team with his jumpers late in the game.

  Where's your evidence that Rondo is so ineffective in the 4th quarter against top teams? It's easy to see (from 82games) that he's normally best or close to best in assists during crunch time.

  There are two main things to be gained by backing off of Rondo and daring him to shoot. One, have his defender help towards his passing targets to limit their ability to score after he passes the ball. Two, to be far enough away from him that you prevent him from driving off of the dribble. There's ample evidence that neither one of these things occur. They don't stop him from getting assists and they don't keep him out of the lane.

How about when he cant get the clutch assists your talking about?

  That's not really evidence of anything.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2013, 01:49:56 PM »

Offline BballTim

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LeBron hasn't missed the playoffs since, I think, his sexond season in the league and I 'm not sure Wade has when he's played 60+ Games.

  In 07-08 the Heat won 10 of the 51 games Wade played in. I don't think his playing another 10 or so games would have made much of a difference.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2013, 01:53:13 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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LeBron hasn't missed the playoffs since, I think, his sexond season in the league and I 'm not sure Wade has when he's played 60+ Games.

  In 07-08 the Heat won 10 of the 51 games Wade played in. I don't think his playing another 10 or so games would have made much of a difference.


SO Wade in his prime can miss the playoffs because the rest of his team is not good enough, but Rondo coming off an injure is going to turn a team no good enough into a playoff team?




Is it a bad thing that a good player can not carry a team to the playoffs when the rest of the team is not good enough? 



There is only one Lebron. 



Kobe had a season when he failed to take the Lakers to the playoffs.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2013, 01:53:22 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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He'll make them better when he comes back, no doubt.  My question, though, is by how much.

I wanna see just exactly how healthy and confident in his body he is when he returns.  I wanna see how this team operates in the half court offense with him running the show.  I wanna see how much run & gun we attempt and how effective it is. 

No doubt, having him back will be a welcome sight.  I just don't know how much of an impact from a wins-standpoint his return will spell out.


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Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2013, 01:59:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It would be really helpful for me (and the rest of the peanut gallery) if we could have some video or even some box scores of when these kind of situations occur.

  It's never that he actually fails, per se, just that he could under certain imagined scenarios. Like taking a great shooter (Ray) out of the lineup affected his game to the point that he went on the 2nd longest double-digit assist streak in nba history.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2013, 02:01:56 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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It would be really helpful for me (and the rest of the peanut gallery) if we could have some video or even some box scores of when these kind of situations occur.

  It's never that he actually fails, per se, just that he could under certain imagined scenarios. Like taking a great shooter (Ray) out of the lineup affected his game to the point that he went on the 2nd longest double-digit assist streak in nba history.


He had actual scoring threats then and he has the skills to do that.


He will still have those same skills, but not the horses around him to really take advantage of it.

Re: Rondo will make this team better.
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 02:04:50 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I don't know if this team will "make Rondo better"  (whatever that means).

But I think last night's loss to the Bobcats is pretty compelling evidence that he could definitely make this team better.

Nothing encapsulates what is wrong with our offense right now more than the fact that Green scored 19 points ... on just 13 shots.

Instead of Crawford, Bradley and our other guards trying to be all "AI" and looking for their own shot, we need the offense to be feeding Green more.  Green should be taking at least 16 shots per game.  Preferably 18 or 20 in a game like last night.

THIS, imho, is what Rondo can bring that we are missing.  The ability to feed the most efficient scorers in our offense.   Rondo has the vision to recognize quickly when we have a mismatch and will work to get the ball to that mismatch.

Rondo also will give better guidance on the floor on getting the team to execute plays to _create_ those mismatches.   Yes, this will require 'pounding the ball' while getting the offense organized, but it is a fundamental that you can't win in the NBA playing street ball forever.   Fast break is great, but you have to execute in the half court.

Right now, we have no leadership in the half court game.   We've done decent in executing out of time-outs.  But otherwise, in the flow of the game, if we aren't getting way out in front of the defense, our offense is dying because none of our points knows how to really run a half court game.

There is currently too much dribble up & drive with no organized-creation.   We need to be running more actual plays to actually create mismatches and free up shots for our better scoring weapons. 

And I know it has been great to have 'everybody involved', but the fact is, some of our guys are much more efficient scorers than others.    Green, in particular, should be getting the lion's share of USG on this team.   Yet Green is only getting 13.3 shots per 36 and his USG% is 4th on the team at just 22%.   Gerald Wallace needs to also be taking more shots.   Wallace is dead last on the team in USG% at just 11.8%.

Both Green AND Wallace are scoring extremely efficiently (both in eFG% and in points-per-shot) but are _combining_ for only 18.3 shots per 36.   That's simply not going to result in enough production from two of our best weapons, logging over 60 minutes of playing time combined, and from the SF spot in particular.

The other guys need to get them the [dang] ball.

It is my opinion, that Rondo would help tremendously in this aspect of the game.
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