Great Article by Chris Mannix on "Tanking"

[Boris Badenov]

I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.

...but not Darko!

Extremely weak in Bird's case.

Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."

Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.

[cltc5]

Some of you are a little daffed in the head if you think Our current crop of players is gonna yield a superstar.  Moreover who the heck wouldnt want wiggins or parker.  Tank with style

Were you not here in 07-08?

That collection of players is not, overall, better than what we have now.  Al Jefferson was a very promising centerpiece, but right now we have a better collection of young players for sure.

Plus we have multiple picks we can include in a trade.

Agreed. Our collection of assets now is much better than it was in 2007. Ainge put us in an excellent position with the Doc, KG, and Pierce trades.

2007 assets: Al Jefferson, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, #5 pick in the draft

result: KG and Ray Allen

kept best player in Pierce, and promising rookie in Rondo

2013 assets: Jared Sullinger, Kelly Olynyk, Avery Bradley, Jordan Crawford, Jeff Green, Humphries expiring contract, 10 million dollar trade exception, 2 1st round picks in this draft, and many 1st round picks in the upcoming drafts.

we should be able to at least match the result from 2007 if not surpass it

keep best player in Rondo, and promising young player in one of Sullinger or Olynyk

This team is not setting up to build for win now.  They are setting up to build for a sustainable good team year in and year out.  What superstar players are we trying to get with a package of Sully, Bradley, crawford and two first round drafts picks?  An aging Carmelo Anthony? Josh Smith? Kevin Love?  There's no way any of our combinations is attractive enough for a team to get rid of their star player, especially if that team is bordering contenders.  And so what if we do get a superstar, then we gotta add pieces around them.  5 years later we're right back in the same hole.  And let's take a look around at the TOP players in the league..they're not getting any younger.  The future of the NBA is in this years draft.  This team has a young coach and some young players to build a core with moving forward, with the chance to add young good talent that will make us competitive year in and year out. 

We won one title with the Big 3 era, and I'd say injuries cost us winning maybe 2 more.  I highly doubt the stars are gonna align like that for us again, so I'd rather take my chances on getting younger and better.  If it doesnt work, at least then you have good young talent developed that if you wanna go ahead and pull the trigger on another blockbuster trade, then, sure do it.  But this years draft is too deep and we;ve got alot of untapped talent yet to develop to pull the trigger this early.

[BballTim]

I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.

...but not Darko!

Extremely weak in Bird's case.

Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."

Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.

  None of Shaq's teams drafted their top player, neither did the Pistons, the Heat or the Celts. Technically the last 2 Lakers teams didn't either. When you say "most modern title teams", consider that 8-10 of the last 14 title teams didn't fall into that category.

[cman88]

I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.

...but not Darko!

Extremely weak in Bird's case.

Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."

Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.

  None of Shaq's teams drafted their top player, neither did the Pistons, the Heat or the Celts. Technically the last 2 Lakers teams didn't either. When you say "most modern title teams", consider that 8-10 of the last 14 title teams didn't fall into that category.

Celtics drafted pierce, heat drafted wade...whether they ended up being the best player on their team is debateable but you need to start somewhere

[chambers]

I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.

...but not Darko!

Extremely weak in Bird's case.

Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."

Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.

  None of Shaq's teams drafted their top player, neither did the Pistons, the Heat or the Celts. Technically the last 2 Lakers teams didn't either. When you say "most modern title teams", consider that 8-10 of the last 14 title teams didn't fall into that category.

Shaqs Orlando team made the finals. The Lakers drafted Kobe who was a franchise player. The Heat winning with Wade and Shaq drafted Wade. Paul Pierce in 2008 was arguably co MVP for our 2008 championship team. 19.5, 4.5 and 5 vs KG's 18.8,9.2 and 3.4 when you consider he had to guard Lebron and Kobe and won finals MVP.


Anyway, the list of those home-drafted NBA finalist/champs is:

Wade-Miami x3 +finals appearance. Pick number 3 (added Shaq)
Duncan- Spurs x 3(or 4?) +finals appearance Pick number 1 (joined Robinson first championship as rookie)
Pierce x 1 +finals appearance Pick Number 10 (added KG + Ray Allen)
Dirk Nowitzki x 1 Pick number 9 (drafted by Mavs, added Tyson Chandler DPOY)
Lebron 1x finals appearance Cleveland Pick 1 (drafted by Cavs, added scraps lol)
Kobe 3+ 1 finals appearance pick 13 (Highschool) Drafted by Lakers. (added Shaq, Added Gasol, Drafted Bynum)
Bynum x 1 pick 10 (high school)
Shaq 1 in Orlando Pick number 1
Penny Hardaway 1 in Orlando Via first round pick, attained via trading away Chris Webber
Howard 1 in Orlando pick 1
Durant 1x finals appearance pick 2
Westbrook 1x finals appearance

Lets go back a bit further

Nets Kenyton Martin x 2 finals appearances pick number 1. (added Kidd)
Pacers Reggie Miller pick number 11
Knicks Patrick Ewing pick 1
Allan Houston pick 11
Bulls Jordan x 6 pick 3
Pippen x 6 pick 5
Jazz Malone x2 finals pick 13 (Added Jeff Malone)
Stockton x 2 finals pick 16
Sonics Gary Payton pick 2 (Added Perkins, Schrempf)
Shawn Kemp pick 17
Houston Olajuwan pick 1 x 2 championships (added Drexler + Thorpe)
Spurs David Robinson pick 1 (added Duncan)


Getting the picture?
You can delude the argument all you want because you don't like tanking, but unfortunately you need lottery picks to win NBA championships. I'm not saying all these teams tanked to get their picks. I'm just saying that without these players they drafted and built around- they probably don't win titles.

KG doesn't come to Boston without Pierce.
Lebron and Shaq don't come to Miami without Wade.
Shaq doesn't go to LA without Kobe.

They add the free agents after they establish they have a legitimate top 5 to 10 player- a franchise level scorer they can rely on when the time comes.

[moiso]

I think the Pistons are an exception- kind of a fluke in how they won their last title.  One thing to be considered is that a lot of title teams signed or were able to acquire great players because they are big market teams or desireable locations for players.  The Celics don't have that luxury.

[BballTim]

I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.

...but not Darko!

Extremely weak in Bird's case.

Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."

Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.

  None of Shaq's teams drafted their top player, neither did the Pistons, the Heat or the Celts. Technically the last 2 Lakers teams didn't either. When you say "most modern title teams", consider that 8-10 of the last 14 title teams didn't fall into that category.

Shaqs Orlando team made the finals. The Lakers drafted Kobe who was a franchise player. The Heat winning with Wade and Shaq drafted Wade. Paul Pierce in 2008 was arguably co MVP for our 2008 championship team. 19.5, 4.5 and 5 vs KG's 18.8,9.2 and 3.4 when you consider he had to guard Lebron and Kobe and won finals MVP.


Anyway, the list of those home-drafted NBA finalist/champs is:

Wade-Miami x3 +finals appearance. Pick number 3 (added Shaq)
Duncan- Spurs x 3(or 4?) +finals appearance Pick number 1 (joined Robinson first championship as rookie)
Pierce x 1 +finals appearance Pick Number 10 (added KG + Ray Allen)
Dirk Nowitzki x 1 Pick number 9 (drafted by Mavs, added Tyson Chandler DPOY)
Lebron 1x finals appearance Cleveland Pick 1 (drafted by Cavs, added scraps lol)
Kobe 3+ 1 finals appearance pick 13 (Highschool) Drafted by Lakers. (added Shaq, Added Gasol, Drafted Bynum)
Bynum x 1 pick 10 (high school)
Shaq 1 in Orlando Pick number 1
Penny Hardaway 1 in Orlando Via first round pick, attained via trading away Chris Webber
Howard 1 in Orlando pick 1
Durant 1x finals appearance pick 2
Westbrook 1x finals appearance

Lets go back a bit further

Nets Kenyton Martin x 2 finals appearances pick number 1. (added Kidd)
Pacers Reggie Miller pick number 11
Knicks Patrick Ewing pick 1
Allan Houston pick 11
Bulls Jordan x 6 pick 3
Pippen x 6 pick 5
Jazz Malone x2 finals pick 13 (Added Jeff Malone)
Stockton x 2 finals pick 16
Sonics Gary Payton pick 2 (Added Perkins, Schrempf)
Shawn Kemp pick 17
Houston Olajuwan pick 1 x 2 championships (added Drexler + Thorpe)
Spurs David Robinson pick 1 (added Duncan)


Getting the picture?
You can delude the argument all you want because you don't like tanking, but unfortunately you need lottery picks to win NBA championships. I'm not saying all these teams tanked to get their picks. I'm just saying that without these players they drafted and built around- they probably don't win titles.

KG doesn't come to Boston without Pierce.
Lebron and Shaq don't come to Miami without Wade.
Shaq doesn't go to LA without Kobe.

They add the free agents after they establish they have a legitimate top 5 to 10 player- a franchise level scorer they can rely on when the time comes.

  And the Celtics currently have Rondo, who's shown he can be one of the top performers in the playoffs and lead teams to deep playoff runs, and we've heard many of the top players in the league saying they'd like to play with him. Problem solved.

[Boris Badenov]

I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.

...but not Darko!

Extremely weak in Bird's case.

Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."

Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.

  None of Shaq's teams drafted their top player, neither did the Pistons, the Heat or the Celts. Technically the last 2 Lakers teams didn't either. When you say "most modern title teams", consider that 8-10 of the last 14 title teams didn't fall into that category.

You just happened to define your cutoff as the year right after 16 rings in a row were won by teams that drafted their best players...

[Boris Badenov]

I think the Pistons are an exception- kind of a fluke in how they won their last title.  One thing to be considered is that a lot of title teams signed or were able to acquire great players because they are big market teams or desireable locations for players.  The Celics don't have that luxury.

Yeah, the big exceptions to the general pattern that championship teams win with players they drafted are the Lakers with Shaq and Miami with Lebron.

In terms of guiding the Celtics' approach to building a championship team, those examples are pretty useless. Our odds of attracting LA- and Miami-level free agents are not good, if history is any guide.

[indeedproceed]

Question: How many Finals teams of the last 25 years have had their best or second best player be either drafted (and retained) by said team?

13: Heat (Wade), Spurs (Duncan)
12: Heat (Wade), Thunder (Durant)
11: Mavs (Dirk), Heat (Wade)
10: Lakers (Bryant), Celtics (Pierce)
09: Lakers (Bryant), Magic (Howard)
08: Celtics (Pierce), Lakers (Bryant)
07: Spurs (Duncan), Cavs (James)
06: Heat (Wade), Mavs (Dirk)
05: Spurs (Duncan), Pistons (DNQ)

Okay, I'm bored. You need to go back to 2005 in order to find a team that made the Finals that didn't have a homegrown star at either the top or near the top of their talent hierarchy.

And of the guys listed, Kobe Bryant was the only player taken outside the top 10 picks.

What does it all mean? Having a top-10 pick and being a bit lucky with your selection is a really good way to assemble at least some of the top-end talent you need to be a legitimate NBA contender.

[kozlodoev]

Question: How many Finals teams of the last 25 years have had their best or second best player be either drafted (and retained) by said team?

13: Heat (Wade), Spurs (Duncan)
12: Heat (Wade), Thunder (Durant)
11: Mavs (Dirk), Heat (Wade)
10: Lakers (Bryant), Celtics (Pierce)
09: Lakers (Bryant), Magic (Howard)
08: Celtics (Pierce), Lakers (Bryant)
07: Spurs (Duncan), Cavs (James)
06: Heat (Wade), Mavs (Dirk)
05: Spurs (Duncan), Pistons (DNQ)

Okay, I'm bored. You need to go back to 2005 in order to find a team that made the Finals that didn't have a homegrown star at either the top or near the top of their talent hierarchy.

And of the guys listed, Kobe Bryant was the only player taken outside the top 10 picks.

What does it all mean? Having a top-10 pick and being a bit lucky with your selection is a really good way to assemble at least some of the top-end talent you need to be a legitimate NBA contender.

We have Rondo. We drafted him. He's perfectly capable of being the second-best player on a championship team. So there goes that point.

[indeedproceed]

Question: How many Finals teams of the last 25 years have had their best or second best player be either drafted (and retained) by said team?

13: Heat (Wade), Spurs (Duncan)
12: Heat (Wade), Thunder (Durant)
11: Mavs (Dirk), Heat (Wade)
10: Lakers (Bryant), Celtics (Pierce)
09: Lakers (Bryant), Magic (Howard)
08: Celtics (Pierce), Lakers (Bryant)
07: Spurs (Duncan), Cavs (James)
06: Heat (Wade), Mavs (Dirk)
05: Spurs (Duncan), Pistons (DNQ)

Okay, I'm bored. You need to go back to 2005 in order to find a team that made the Finals that didn't have a homegrown star at either the top or near the top of their talent hierarchy.

And of the guys listed, Kobe Bryant was the only player taken outside the top 10 picks.

What does it all mean? Having a top-10 pick and being a bit lucky with your selection is a really good way to assemble at least some of the top-end talent you need to be a legitimate NBA contender.

We have Rondo. We drafted him. He's perfectly capable of being the second-best player on a championship team. So there goes that point.

Haha, no sir. The point is a valid one no matter who/what Rondo is.

However to kick at your shifting field goals, Rondo may or may not be perfectly capable of being the second-best player on a championship team (it would really depend on who the 1st and 3rd best players are), but with so much hinging on him making a full recovery, evolving as a leader, altering his game/shoring up his consistency...there is still so very little to gain by doing anything other than acquiring another high-value asset in a top-10 pick in this years' draft. 

[kozlodoev]

We're unlikely to break out of the top 10 this year even if we tried. Your point?

[hpantazo]

Question: How many Finals teams of the last 25 years have had their best or second best player be either drafted (and retained) by said team?

13: Heat (Wade), Spurs (Duncan)
12: Heat (Wade), Thunder (Durant)
11: Mavs (Dirk), Heat (Wade)
10: Lakers (Bryant), Celtics (Pierce)
09: Lakers (Bryant), Magic (Howard)
08: Celtics (Pierce), Lakers (Bryant)
07: Spurs (Duncan), Cavs (James)
06: Heat (Wade), Mavs (Dirk)
05: Spurs (Duncan), Pistons (DNQ)

Okay, I'm bored. You need to go back to 2005 in order to find a team that made the Finals that didn't have a homegrown star at either the top or near the top of their talent hierarchy.

And of the guys listed, Kobe Bryant was the only player taken outside the top 10 picks.

What does it all mean? Having a top-10 pick and being a bit lucky with your selection is a really good way to assemble at least some of the top-end talent you need to be a legitimate NBA contender.

We have Rondo. We drafted him. He's perfectly capable of being the second-best player on a championship team. So there goes that point.

Actually Kobe Bryant was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets and acquired by the lakers for Vlade Divac, and Rondo was drafted by the Phoenix Suns.

[LooseCannon]

Actually Kobe Bryant was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets and acquired by the lakers for Vlade Divac, and Rondo was drafted by the Phoenix Suns.

Both of those trades were agreed to before the pick was actually made and Charlotte/Phoenix were picking for the other team.