Great Article by Chris Mannix on "Tanking"

[Snakehead]

The Cleveland Cavs are a great example tonight of how tanking works. Or actually doesn't. You could not possibly tank better than this team did over a 3 draft period. They didn't just pick high once. They picked high 3 times. A total mess. They also got respectable free agents like Jarrett Jack and had a decent player in Varajao already. Even their later first rounder Zeller was all-rookie 2nd team.

Tanking. Ask the Cavs how it works.

They did such a bad job drafting that they are a horrible example really.

They were primed to be a tanking success.  Right now if they drafted well (taking pretty much no brainer picks at their position) they'd have Irving, Valincunas, Drummond/Barnes (choose), and now Oladipo.

That would be a ton of talent.  Instead they made their decisions and the team just lacks talent.

[Eja117]

The Cleveland Cavs are a great example tonight of how tanking works. Or actually doesn't. You could not possibly tank better than this team did over a 3 draft period. They didn't just pick high once. They picked high 3 times. A total mess. They also got respectable free agents like Jarrett Jack and had a decent player in Varajao already. Even their later first rounder Zeller was all-rookie 2nd team.

Tanking. Ask the Cavs how it works.

They did such a bad job drafting that they are a horrible example really.

They were primed to be a tanking success.  Right now if they drafted well (taking pretty much no brainer picks at their position) they'd have Irving, Valincunas, Drummond/Barnes (choose), and now Oladipo.

That would be a ton of talent.  Instead they made their decisions and the team just lacks talent.

8 other teams also passed on Drum. They also got Tristan Thompson. Waiters had a fine rookie year and made first team all rookie. 

I suppose if the Cavs could have drafted with the benefit of hindsight then they could have drafted perfectly like no team has ever done.  In the real world this is what tanking is.

[Snakehead]

The Cleveland Cavs are a great example tonight of how tanking works. Or actually doesn't. You could not possibly tank better than this team did over a 3 draft period. They didn't just pick high once. They picked high 3 times. A total mess. They also got respectable free agents like Jarrett Jack and had a decent player in Varajao already. Even their later first rounder Zeller was all-rookie 2nd team.

Tanking. Ask the Cavs how it works.

They did such a bad job drafting that they are a horrible example really.

They were primed to be a tanking success.  Right now if they drafted well (taking pretty much no brainer picks at their position) they'd have Irving, Valincunas, Drummond/Barnes (choose), and now Oladipo.

That would be a ton of talent.  Instead they made their decisions and the team just lacks talent.

8 other teams also passed on Drum. They also got Tristan Thompson. Waiters had a fine rookie year and made first team all rookie. 

I suppose if the Cavs could have drafted with the benefit of hindsight then they could have drafted perfectly like no team has ever done.  In the real world this is what tanking is.

That's why I said Barnes, who was not a player to pass over for any reason.  I didn't think there was any reason to pass up Drummond either.

Any capable GM would have come out of their position with almost those exact players.  Those aren't hindsight picking and choosing choices I am making, those were the no brainers where the Cavs drafted, on draft night and before.  I'm not going further back to pick out gems no one saw coming.

Ainge would have done so much better than the Cavs management drafting that it is a silly thing to say, that because the Cavs didn't do it no one can. 

The Cavs are a terrible basketball organization, it's that simple.  If they had a decent GM they would have been set up OKC style, stacked with super talented young players.

[Eja117]

The Cleveland Cavs are a great example tonight of how tanking works. Or actually doesn't. You could not possibly tank better than this team did over a 3 draft period. They didn't just pick high once. They picked high 3 times. A total mess. They also got respectable free agents like Jarrett Jack and had a decent player in Varajao already. Even their later first rounder Zeller was all-rookie 2nd team.

Tanking. Ask the Cavs how it works.

They did such a bad job drafting that they are a horrible example really.

They were primed to be a tanking success.  Right now if they drafted well (taking pretty much no brainer picks at their position) they'd have Irving, Valincunas, Drummond/Barnes (choose), and now Oladipo.

That would be a ton of talent.  Instead they made their decisions and the team just lacks talent.

8 other teams also passed on Drum. They also got Tristan Thompson. Waiters had a fine rookie year and made first team all rookie. 

I suppose if the Cavs could have drafted with the benefit of hindsight then they could have drafted perfectly like no team has ever done.  In the real world this is what tanking is.

That's why I said Barnes, who was not a player to pass over for any reason.  I didn't think there was any reason to pass up Drummond either.

Any capable GM would have come out of their position with almost those exact players.  Those aren't hindsight picking and choosing choices I am making, those were the no brainers where the Cavs drafted, on draft night and before.  I'm not going further back to pick out gems no one saw coming.

Ainge would have done so much better than the Cavs management drafting that it is a silly thing to say, that because the Cavs didn't do it no one can. 

The Cavs are a terrible basketball organization, it's that simple.  If they had a decent GM they would have been set up to OKC style and stack up super talented young players.

Ah yes. It is impossible that the GM who drafted Fab Melo, JuJuan Johnson (over Jimmy Butler, Chandler Parsons, Isaiah Thomas, and Kyle Singler), and JR Giddens (over Pekovic and DeAndre Jordan) could have ever gotten these picks wrong.

[Snakehead]

The Cleveland Cavs are a great example tonight of how tanking works. Or actually doesn't. You could not possibly tank better than this team did over a 3 draft period. They didn't just pick high once. They picked high 3 times. A total mess. They also got respectable free agents like Jarrett Jack and had a decent player in Varajao already. Even their later first rounder Zeller was all-rookie 2nd team.

Tanking. Ask the Cavs how it works.

They did such a bad job drafting that they are a horrible example really.

They were primed to be a tanking success.  Right now if they drafted well (taking pretty much no brainer picks at their position) they'd have Irving, Valincunas, Drummond/Barnes (choose), and now Oladipo.

That would be a ton of talent.  Instead they made their decisions and the team just lacks talent.

8 other teams also passed on Drum. They also got Tristan Thompson. Waiters had a fine rookie year and made first team all rookie. 

I suppose if the Cavs could have drafted with the benefit of hindsight then they could have drafted perfectly like no team has ever done.  In the real world this is what tanking is.

That's why I said Barnes, who was not a player to pass over for any reason.  I didn't think there was any reason to pass up Drummond either.

Any capable GM would have come out of their position with almost those exact players.  Those aren't hindsight picking and choosing choices I am making, those were the no brainers where the Cavs drafted, on draft night and before.  I'm not going further back to pick out gems no one saw coming.

Ainge would have done so much better than the Cavs management drafting that it is a silly thing to say, that because the Cavs didn't do it no one can. 

The Cavs are a terrible basketball organization, it's that simple.  If they had a decent GM they would have been set up to OKC style and stack up super talented young players.

Ah yes. It is impossible that the GM who drafted Fab Melo, JuJuan Johnson (over Jimmy Butler, Chandler Parsons, Isaiah Thomas, and Kyle Singler), and JR Giddens (over Pekovic and DeAndre Jordan) could have ever gotten these picks wrong.

haha talk about cherry picking picks.  Yes Ainge slipped up on some of those, but who doesn't at the end of the draft?  He's also taken guys like Rondo, Sullinger, Avery Bradley (though lets skip those right?)

End of the draft is a crap shoot in a lot of ways.  Where the Cavs drafted was not a crap shoot.  There were very obvious players to take. 

This is a team that drafted Anthony Bennet first!  How are you defending this...

[Eja117]

The Cleveland Cavs are a great example tonight of how tanking works. Or actually doesn't. You could not possibly tank better than this team did over a 3 draft period. They didn't just pick high once. They picked high 3 times. A total mess. They also got respectable free agents like Jarrett Jack and had a decent player in Varajao already. Even their later first rounder Zeller was all-rookie 2nd team.

Tanking. Ask the Cavs how it works.

They did such a bad job drafting that they are a horrible example really.

They were primed to be a tanking success.  Right now if they drafted well (taking pretty much no brainer picks at their position) they'd have Irving, Valincunas, Drummond/Barnes (choose), and now Oladipo.

That would be a ton of talent.  Instead they made their decisions and the team just lacks talent.

8 other teams also passed on Drum. They also got Tristan Thompson. Waiters had a fine rookie year and made first team all rookie. 

I suppose if the Cavs could have drafted with the benefit of hindsight then they could have drafted perfectly like no team has ever done.  In the real world this is what tanking is.

That's why I said Barnes, who was not a player to pass over for any reason.  I didn't think there was any reason to pass up Drummond either.

Any capable GM would have come out of their position with almost those exact players.  Those aren't hindsight picking and choosing choices I am making, those were the no brainers where the Cavs drafted, on draft night and before.  I'm not going further back to pick out gems no one saw coming.

Ainge would have done so much better than the Cavs management drafting that it is a silly thing to say, that because the Cavs didn't do it no one can. 

The Cavs are a terrible basketball organization, it's that simple.  If they had a decent GM they would have been set up to OKC style and stack up super talented young players.

Ah yes. It is impossible that the GM who drafted Fab Melo, JuJuan Johnson (over Jimmy Butler, Chandler Parsons, Isaiah Thomas, and Kyle Singler), and JR Giddens (over Pekovic and DeAndre Jordan) could have ever gotten these picks wrong.

haha talk about cherry picking picks.  Yes Ainge slipped up on some of those, but who doesn't at the end of the draft?  He's also taken guys like Rondo, Sullinger, Avery Bradley (though lets skip those right?)

End of the draft is a crap shoot in a lot of ways.  Where the Cavs drafted was not a crap shoot.  There were very obvious players to take. 

This is a team that drafted Anthony Bennet first!  How are you defending this...

Portland made the no brainer picks. They got Oden and Brandon Roy....how did that work?

Name me the teams that tanked their way to a championship?

Golden State did very well with Stephen Curry, Harrison Barnes, and Klay Thompson.

The Bulls did very well picking D Rose, Noah, Gibson, Butler, and Deng.

Where is the team? 

Not the Thunder. Not the Cavs (twice). Not the Bobcats. Not the Kings. Not the Clippers. Not the Celts. Not the Lakers. Not the Magic (twice).

There's the Bulls I guess. That was about 30 years ago. There's the Spurs that got VERY lucky. That was about 20 years ago. There was the Heat getting D Wade who won a popularity contest, but those guys are not guys they picked. There is no way I say the Mavs tanked to a ring, nor the Pistons, nor the Rockets.

And that's about it.

So it worked for 3 teams in a 30 year period and it didn't work for anyone else.

[D.o.s.]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

[Eja117]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

It's not so much that it doesn't work for the Bobcats. It doesn't work for anyone.

[Jailan34]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

It's not so much that it doesn't work for the Bobcats. It doesn't work for anyone.

How do the Celtic's win their next title then? Trading a bunch of mid round picks for a star? Signing a superstar free agent? Neither of those are likely and we don't have anywhere near the talent on this team currently to win a title.

[Snakehead]

I trust the Celtics organization to do a lot better in the same position as a lot of these teams, which are consistently bad for a reason, whether it's owners or management.

If you think Ainge wouldn't do a lot better than most all of those GMs I guess I'd disagree.

[guava_wrench]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

It's not so much that it doesn't work for the Bobcats. It doesn't work for anyone.

False.

Have you never heard of Tim Duncan? The Spurs tank-fest led to many rings.

[Celtics18]

5 consecutive years of two first round picks per year.  That's ten chances for Danny to get hits over that stretch.
We know Danny is one of the best at finding talent mid to late in the first round.  He's got so many chances here.  At least a couple of these picks (hopefully, not our own) are likely to fall somewhere in the lottery. 

We've already got some promising young talent in Sullinger, Olynyk, Bradley, and Favs.  We've got some good "young" veterans in Rondo, Green, Bass, and Crawford. 

The future looks bright as far as I can tell. 

Tanking not necessary. 

[chambers]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

It's not so much that it doesn't work for the Bobcats. It doesn't work for anyone.

Horrible management is horrible management- no matter whether it's a rebuild via the draft or a rebuild via the free agency/trade path, you've gotta have the right guy in the chair to play poker. You MUST add the right talent around your draft pick or they'll leave via free agency.

Championship teams are generally built off the back of top 10 pick who turns out to be top 10 player. For us it's about getting that first key guy- that top 10 player in the league.
We need a franchise guy.
When do true franchise guys get drafted by the 7th or 8th seed in the East and stay with their team, going on to make the finals?
I don't mean Hibbert or Paul George, or Rajon Rondo. I mean championship caliber scorers and history changing players like Durant, Lebron, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan,Pierce, Garnett, Nowitzki...

Off the top of my head there's Karl Malone who rode the train from the 13th pick as the main guy to get beaten by two top 5 picks (Jordan , Pippen) and a GOAT.

How many of the last 25 years of championships have not been won by teams with their own top 5 or 10 pick in place already?

No one here is dreading our young guys becoming top 5 players. The problem is none of them will be. Our best player is a top 25 guy who can't shoot- he's an All Star but he's coming off ACL surgery and has 1.5 seasons left on his deal before he can walk off into the sunset.

Who exactly is expecting or hoping that Bradley and Olynyk do or don't become more than solid starters in the NBA? Sully an All Star? potentially- Olynyk doesn't look anywhere near as good as Sully did this time last year.
 I know it's early but I don't think I'm going out on a whim to say Avery Bradley ain't no All Star, neither is Jeff Green. The odds are stacked against Sully and KO too- but they have SOME hope I guess.

Pro tankers or 'drafters' believe we are missing the franchise piece. If we can keep Rondo as the fiddle to the violin and get him to play with Wiggins or Parker that would be great- but it's not a realistic expectation to expect to get a guy like that when you're too good to miss the lottery but never good enough to make the 8th seed or get out of the first round.

Looking at the last 20 seasons of NBA champions and NBA finalists, you'll notice that every team that won or made the finals had their own drafted top 10 pick, The exceptions are the Pistons and Kobe on the Lakers- again another example where he went 14th but if he had to play in college was a top 5 prospect quite easily. They acquired the pick trading Divac.

Anyway, the list of those home-drafted NBA finalist/champs is:

Wade-Miami x3 +finals appearance. Pick number 3 (added Shaq)
Duncan- Spurs x 3(or 4?) +finals appearance Pick number 1 (joined Robinson first championship as rookie)
Pierce x 1 +finals appearance Pick Number 10 (added KG + Ray Allen)
Dirk Nowitzki x 1 Pick number 9 (drafted by Mavs, added Tyson Chandler DPOY)
Lebron 1x finals appearance Cleveland Pick 1 (drafted by Cavs, added scraps lol)
Kobe 3+ 1 finals appearance pick 13 (Highschool) Drafted by Lakers. (added Shaq, Added Gasol, Drafted Bynum)
Bynum x 1 pick 10 (high school)
Shaq 1 in Orlando Pick number 1
Penny Hardaway 1 in Orlando Via first round pick, attained via trading away Chris Webber
Howard 1 in Orlando pick 1
Durant 1x finals appearance pick 2
Westbrook 1x finals appearance

Lets go back a bit further

Nets Kenyton Martin x 2 finals appearances pick number 1. (added Kidd)
Pacers Reggie Miller pick number 11
Knicks Patrick Ewing pick 1
Allan Houston pick 11
Bulls Jordan x 6 pick 3
Pippen x 6 pick 5
Jazz Malone x2 finals pick 13 (Added Jeff Malone)
Stockton x 2 finals pick 16
Sonics Gary Payton pick 2 (Added Perkins, Schrempf)
Shawn Kemp pick 17
Houston Olajuwan pick 1 x 2 championships (added Drexler + Thorpe)
Spurs David Robinson pick 1 (added Duncan)

It doesn't matter which route you take, the odds are stacked against every team in the NBA to win a championship. The luck involved is incredible. I also wanna know... what exactly has Paul George done? Do people think he's a bigger reason for the Pacers success than Hibbert?
Since when is George a franchise player?
Paul George ain't leading anyone to a championship at this stage.
He's basically a rich man's Jeff Green.
So much pressure is taken off George because of Hibbert's ability to draw double teams on offense...and then his even bigger impact on the defensive end.
The luck involved in
a)drafting those two guys with mid-early first round picks
b)having them become all star caliber players.
c)then having them re-sign with the club that drafted them
.... is a combination of luck that is just as hard, if not harder to pull off than binking a number one pick.

Anyway, the key of the planned rebuild, which is geared towards developing younger/newer players and subsequently losing most games is a polite form of tanking.
By losing those games and developing those players, we are actually increasing our odds of trading for a 'franchise' superstar player because of the asset that is that lottery pick- as well as the assets that are those 'developing' players.

It gives us another legitimate shot or option at gaining a star player to get closer to that championship.

I don't understand why people see 'tank' and think that it means 'rebuild via the draft is the only option!'....

It actually means- increase your opportunity to gain a franchise player- but it doesn't have to be via the draft.

Let me ask you Eja, if we don't get Durant or Lebron via free agency and can't trade our current guys for a franchise level player or multiple All Stars- do we just keep getting more assets until eventually some star gets fed up like Dwight Howard?

How'd that work out for the Mavs, the Lakers and the Hawks this off season?
'Tanking' has a lot of negative connotations- but if you know by putting young guys out there that you'll develop them- yet risk losing more games- is that considered tanking?
Or is it a smart 'rebuilding' strategy to have the most valuable trade assets (lottery picks) up your sleeve as a 2nd option towards title-town?

[Celtics18]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

It's not so much that it doesn't work for the Bobcats. It doesn't work for anyone.

How many of the last 25 years of championships have not been won by teams with their own top 5 or 10 pick in place already?

Eight.  Five by the Lakers, one by the Celtics, one by the Pistons (if you discount Darko), and one by the Mavs. 

[Moranis]

No one's saying that you can tank your way to a ring.

But saying it doesn't work because the Bobcats are still awful is a lazy equivocation.

It's not so much that it doesn't work for the Bobcats. It doesn't work for anyone.

How many of the last 25 years of championships have not been won by teams with their own top 5 or 10 pick in place already?

Eight.  Five by the Lakers, one by the Celtics, one by the Pistons (if you discount Darko), and one by the Mavs.

well Pierce and Bynum went 10th and Dirk went 9th, so if you go top ten you eliminate 4 more titles.