I assume "top three" means drafted with one of the top three picks... which would eliminate Bird and Kobe on a fairly weak technicality.
...but not Darko!
Extremely weak in Bird's case.
Even then, that's still nothing close to "all but a couple cases."
Most modern title winners have drafted their best player, regardless of the games one wants to play with labeling and technicalities. It's that simple.
None of Shaq's teams drafted their top player, neither did the Pistons, the Heat or the Celts. Technically the last 2 Lakers teams didn't either. When you say "most modern title teams", consider that 8-10 of the last 14 title teams didn't fall into that category.
Shaqs Orlando team made the finals. The Lakers drafted Kobe who was a franchise player. The Heat winning with Wade and Shaq drafted Wade. Paul Pierce in 2008 was arguably co MVP for our 2008 championship team. 19.5, 4.5 and 5 vs KG's 18.8,9.2 and 3.4 when you consider he had to guard Lebron and Kobe and won finals MVP.
Anyway, the list of those home-drafted NBA finalist/champs is:
Wade-Miami x3 +finals appearance. Pick number 3 (added Shaq)
Duncan- Spurs x 3(or 4?) +finals appearance Pick number 1 (joined Robinson first championship as rookie)
Pierce x 1 +finals appearance Pick Number 10 (added KG + Ray Allen)
Dirk Nowitzki x 1 Pick number 9 (drafted by Mavs, added Tyson Chandler DPOY)
Lebron 1x finals appearance Cleveland Pick 1 (drafted by Cavs, added scraps lol)
Kobe 3+ 1 finals appearance pick 13 (Highschool) Drafted by Lakers. (added Shaq, Added Gasol, Drafted Bynum)
Bynum x 1 pick 10 (high school)
Shaq 1 in Orlando Pick number 1
Penny Hardaway 1 in Orlando Via first round pick, attained via trading away Chris Webber
Howard 1 in Orlando pick 1
Durant 1x finals appearance pick 2
Westbrook 1x finals appearance
Lets go back a bit further
Nets Kenyton Martin x 2 finals appearances pick number 1. (added Kidd)
Pacers Reggie Miller pick number 11
Knicks Patrick Ewing pick 1
Allan Houston pick 11
Bulls Jordan x 6 pick 3
Pippen x 6 pick 5
Jazz Malone x2 finals pick 13 (Added Jeff Malone)
Stockton x 2 finals pick 16
Sonics Gary Payton pick 2 (Added Perkins, Schrempf)
Shawn Kemp pick 17
Houston Olajuwan pick 1 x 2 championships (added Drexler + Thorpe)
Spurs David Robinson pick 1 (added Duncan)
Getting the picture?
You can delude the argument all you want because you don't like tanking, but unfortunately you need lottery picks to win NBA championships. I'm not saying all these teams tanked to get their picks. I'm just saying that without these players they drafted and built around- they probably don't win titles.
KG doesn't come to Boston without Pierce.
Lebron and Shaq don't come to Miami without Wade.
Shaq doesn't go to LA without Kobe.
They add the free agents after they establish they have a legitimate top 5 to 10 player- a franchise level scorer they can rely on when the time comes.
And the Celtics currently have Rondo, who's shown he can be one of the top performers in the playoffs and lead teams to deep playoff runs, and we've heard many of the top players in the league saying they'd like to play with him. Problem solved.
Rondo is not a top 10 NBA player. Of the top 15 ranked NBA players, could you name one NBA team that would trade their top 15 player for Rondo? It would be very difficult to find a trade partner.
He's possibly the second wheel on a championship team like Wade is currently to Lebron, but he doesn't fall into the same category of guys on that list other than Kenyon Martin or Allan Houston- bench all stars.
Plain and simple fact is that he's not a scorer. Championship teams need those ya know.
Referring to Rondo as a "bench all-star" seems to be quite a slight in your mind (I suppose because you feel that players like PP are a level or two below people who get voted onto the teams) in spite of the fact that Rondo was, as someone else pointed out, a starter in his last all-star game. But despite that "shortcoming", nothing you said really refuted my point. Did you happen to catch the playoffs in 2010 (game 7 of the finals)? If so, which of Rondo's teammates do you think played like LeBron?
Rondo started because Rose was injured- that doesn't make him starting All Star Material. All Stars are picked by fans and it's fair to say that Rondo is definitely the most entertaining player on the court in almost every game he plays.
Pierce plays the position that conveys the best basketball players and generally the most popular ones and to make the bench that many times is pretty unreal. I’d ask yourself how many All Star appearances Rondo makes without KG, Pierce and Ray around him- I think it's also fair to say there's a good chance that he won't get selected for a good few years until he's on a contender again.
That's the difference between Rondo and Chris Paul or a prime Steve Nash. They don't need guys around them to dominate- they can shoot, assist and control the game like Rondo without the leaks in their games.(Although I will mention Nash's defensive problems, even if they were generally overblown). Would Rondo make the All Star game if he were in Chris Paul's place in New Orleans? Or Nash's MVP and All Star place in Phoenix?
We’ll leave All Star appearances out of it then, because they’re really not important when looking at Rondo overall.
Talent wise, or results wise- he's averaged 12 points and 11 assists per game. He's shot less than 24% from 3 point land and 60% from the line over the last 3 seasons.
Yeah he's been great in some playoff series but he's also had Pierce and KG and Ray to pass to and finish.
Chris Paul has arguably never had anyone better than Blake Griffin to play with and has averaged 18.4 points and 9.6 assists in the last three seasons. In the playoffs he's averaged 20 points and 9.5 assists. His PER for the last three seasons is 26.86 and his playoff PER is over 27. His win shares per 48 minutes over the last three seasons are 28. Rondos are 11.8 wins per 48.
If you look at Steve Nash in his prime, his regular season numbers were actually very similar to Rondo's. The obvious difference that separates them as MVP material (like Chris Paul) is Nash's shooting. His superior shooting and free throws mean that his win shares in his MVP seasons were 20.3(2005) and 21.2(2006) with win shares of 23 and 22.
Nash's playoff stats are where you drop your jaw. His playoff AVERAGES were 24 points and 11 assists in 2005 with a PER of 23.4 in 2005 and 20 ppg and 11 with a PER of 21.3 in 2006.
Chris Paul has had some incredible numbers as well, the guys playoff PER over the last 3 seasons was 28 with his win shares at 20.7.
Why did Danny want Chris Paul so badly? As Danny Ainge stated when reflecting on the efforts to trade Rondo for CP3. ‘Chris Paul…well he's got the complete game.’
Rondo is VERY close, if not better at many aspects- but the shooting and lack of scoring on Rondo's behalf are the clear leaks that are preventing him from reaching Chris Paul's level. If he gets hot in a playoff series then yeah, he's on the Steve Nash/Chris Paul level- but he's not going to put up those numbers as much as CP3 is.
You've talked about Rondo's 2010 playoffs and his 2012 ECF run.
In 2010 he had that amazing 4th quarter in game 2 (among other highlights), and yeah he was great- but his averages for the series were 13.6 points,6.3 rebounds and 7.6 assists- nice numbers buts he's still got KG, Ray and Pierce all averaging at least 14 ppg around him.
Two memorable performances ?
1) Let’s look at CP3's series against the Lakers in 2011 in his last run as a New Orleans Hornet.
22 pgg, 11.5 assists, 6.7 rebounds, 1.8 steals on a PER of 29 and true shooting percentage of 67% with an efficiency rating of 60 %!!! His Turnover percentage was 18%.
2) Rondo's 2012 ECF games were brilliant, 20.9 ppg, 11.3 assists and 6.3 rebounds with 1.9 steals per game with true shooting at 53 % and efficiency at 50%. Rondo's turnover rate was 25%.
Of course PER and Win shares don't mean everything but they tell a story of how much a particular player contributes to the overall success of their team- It's why Danny picked all our rookies this season- they were all at the top of win shares for their position in the NCAA.
In the last three seasons during the playoffs Rondo's averaged 15 points and 10 assists. I mean they're great numbers but they're not franchise worthy. My point is that Rondo is not as good as Chris Paul or Steve Nash.
Which leads me to my most important point. The fact is that neither Nash nor Chris Paul are good enough to lead a team to the NBA finals- but they are/were both better players than Rondo. (at least up to this point in Rondo’s career)
Put Rondo on the Hornets and CP3 on the Celtics? Does he get that many assists without the elite players around him? Does Chris Paul get more points and more assists? The numbers say he definitely does because his usage is far more efficient- whether it be his shooting usage or his overall usage when on the floor.
In today’s modern NBA game, point guards are not the players to lead you to a championship. The last one that did it was Isiah
(I think?). Iverson tried hard- but he was a scoring guard. Rose might get close- but again he’s a scorer, not a ‘point’/facilitator guard.
What you’re also leaving out is Rondo’s regular season numbers which are hurting his team’s playoff position and home court advantage/seeding.
2012 NBA regular season? (his last full season) Rajon Rondo 2011-12 regular season: 12 points, 11 assists and 4.8 rebounds, 1.8 steals and 3.6 turnovers per game.
PER of 17.5 and a win share of 12.1 games.
Compared to Chris Paul in the same year?Chris Paul 2011-12 regular season: 19.8 ppg, 9.1 assists, 3.6 Rebounds, 2.4 steals, 2.1 turnovers.
PER of 27 with a win share of 27.8 games.The triple doubles and 20 assist games are great- but the NBA and championships are built by consistency.
Consistency in effort, consistency in shooting, consistency in effectiveness and efficiency are just not there for Rondo.
CP3 might be good enough as the second fiddle on a championship team- we’re not sure yet. Plenty of basketball experts would say that Russell Westbrook is a better point guard/player than Rondo, and we know that they aren't winning anything in OKC unless Durant gets more help than Westbrook.
Anyway, Rondo is a fair way behind CP3 and I doubt he’ll ever reach CP3’s greatness.
With one season after this one remaining on his contract- perhaps it’s easy to see why some of us would prefer to trade him for a draft pick before he is potentially exposed- exposed in the sense that he doesn't have All Star team mates now. Sure he could blossom, but his pathetic shooting from range and pathetic free throw shooting aren't showing enough consistent improvement to make me see the light in such a prediction.
He's coming back from a serious injury. He's got one more year on his contract after this season. He's lost his All Star team mates and now more than ever is the chance he'll be exposed as a one dimensional player that NEEDS shooters around him.
Trade him for a nice pick or asset or watch him walk away in frustration to free agency for the bright lights of New York or any other contending team with the elite team mates he’s used to playing with his whole career.
Kid's freakin awesome, but unfortunately we are stuck between a rock and a hard place with his contract and the unknown dimension of any decent players around him.
He is not a top 10 player. He's not a top 15 player. He's an amazingly good point guard who's probably top 5 in the league at his position. Problem is he can't shoot and probably won't ever be able to shoot.
I guess the good outcome could be that without good players around him, his value plummets and no one else is willing to pay him the big $$$ as a free agent, leaving us to scoop him up for another bargain contract. I feel there are just too many teams in the NBA that would over pay him for his jersey sales/marketing appeal alone.