Author Topic: OMG, the Nets stink  (Read 31146 times)

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Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2013, 04:13:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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A lot of the Williams hype a few years ago was people wanting to be smarter than everyone else by saying Williams was better then Paul. He never was.

On the other hand, he is really underperforming.

Williams is injured and is on minutes restriction.  The Nets will be fine.  They will likely have one of the best records in the league when the season finishes.

And then all bets are off.  Deron Williams is a playoff superstar.

Rondo:  14.5 points, 9.2 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 steals, 45%/28%/65%

D-Will:  21.1 points, 9.4 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 1.2 steals 45%/40%/80%

  Rondo played a lot of games in the 07-08 playoffs, when he was in his first year as a regular starter. Since then he's been good for 16/7/10 in 66 games (more than Deron's played in his career btw). in other words, over the last 4-5 years Rondo's had roughly the same production as a "playoff superstar" but with much better defense.

And much worse foul shooting, if you want to cover all the bases. ;D

  He did cover that base.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2013, 04:16:38 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

I'd love to see Williams get his game together this year, though. Dude definitely has (or had?) talent in spades.
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Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2013, 04:20:30 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I will say this again: it is a very long season.

This^.

A thousand times, this.


I know it's a long season and I still have faith in the Nets but not Garnett, he looks horrendous out there. Imagine what he'll look like 75 games from now....yikes.

I suspect that, assuming he is healthy, that he'll look just fine.

Garnett's main problem right now is simply that his trademark mid-long jumper is simply not falling.   He's shooting an uncharacteristic 32.1% from the field when he is normally solidly over 50%.

In particular,  in the 16-23 foot range across the top of the key, from elbow-to-elbow, historically he is a machine, hitting that at just under 50% (WAY above league average).   That's where he smartly takes a big share of his shots.

This year, with Lopez to attack inside, it makes even more sense for KG to use that long jumper to help stretch defenses.  So he's taken 25 of his 53 shots so far this year (almost half) from that range.  But so far, he is just 9 of 25 (36%) from that range.

These are incredibly tiny sample sizes and will almost certainly swing differently as the season progresses.   KG's form looks good and eventually those shots will start to fall again.

Six games and just 53 shots is a blink compared to a season.  Check back on his FG% in another couple of weeks and this will all probably start to look moot.
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Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2013, 04:25:11 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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As I said earlier, I wouldn't expect them to be awful all year unless some of their older players have just completely lost it or because of major injuries to important players. But I wouldn't expect them to be amongst the ten best teams in the league either. I think the following teams will probably finish in front of them this year, recordwise:

LA Clippers
San Antonio
Oklahoma City
Houston
Golden State
Memphis
Miami
Indiana
Chicago
New York(or a surprise team in either conference)

I think Brooklyn will struggle this year but still easily make the playoffs in a horrible Eastern Conference and that is where they may do some damage because they will be the team no one wants to face come the playoffs.

And all that makes me feel good because getting a pick in the 15 -20 range in the draft will net a dang good player this year.

Regarding DWill, simply put for about 3-5 years there, he was the second best PG in the league and there was a clear understanding that it was he and Paul and then everyone else.

Regarding KG's play, I am wondering how happy he is being a NJ Net. I think he was sold a bill of goods from Pierce and went to NJ out of loyalty to his boy PP but I really don't think he wanted or wants to be there. He is the consummate professional so I don't think he is purposely playing poorly because he isn't happy there but sometimes when the heart isn't in it, you just can't be all that you can be at times.

That and, as others have said, he is just not a PF any longer. He's a stretch 4-5 offensively and only a center defensively anymore. Take him out of the middle and away from being that defensive general and interior defender, and he struggles. It also doesn't help that the Nets don't exactly have a whole bunch of very good to elite defenders on that roster. With age, many on that roster have gone from mediocre defenders in their prime to poor defenders now.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »

Offline blink

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The Nets are the only team to score a point per possession against Indiana, but the Brooklyn offense has been otherwise uninspiring. They're waiting for Deron Williams to get back his lift and for Andrei Kirilenko to get healthy, but Kevin Garnett has been a serious disappointment thus far. Not only is he shooting 32 percent, but his team has allowed 107.6 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor.
woow

WOW, maybe KG really should have retired but accepted the deal to help out Pierce and the celtics. Great trade by Ainge.

Maybe we should treat that as circumstantial evidence that healthy Rondo>DWill.

Yea, I'm sure the difference between Rondo and DWill is really affecting KG's ability to play defense  ::)

Another poster made a great point, I think KG is just too slow to play PF on defense nowadays. It's tough to put him out there with Lopez, and you can't bench Lopez as he is at  the moment the best player on the team.

Kirilenko and Pierce are also shadows of their former selves, and let's not even mention how useless Terry is now. The Nets are in legitimate trouble. A rookie head coach doesn't help things either.

I just think that PP and KG being another year older is going to catch up with the Nets to some degree.  I agree that KG can't keep up with the young stretch 4's anymore.  His help D is still great, but I just think he was probably in the best place for him the last couple of years - playing the 5 against mostly average centers.  Playing at the 5 allowed him to roam and play help d.

I am not convinced that the Nets are a real title contender yet.  I see them making the playoffs, but I think Miami, Chicago, Indiana will all be much better teams.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2013, 04:39:56 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

  I don't feel the need to mention his free throw shooting percentage in every post about him. I don't really consider that to be "glossing over" the subject since it's so well known, especially among his detractors.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2013, 04:47:50 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

  I don't feel the need to mention his free throw shooting percentage in every post about him. I don't really consider that to be "glossing over" the subject since it's so well known, especially among his detractors.

And, possibly, because it runs counter to your narrative of "Rajon Rondo, Point God?"
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2013, 04:54:47 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

  I don't feel the need to mention his free throw shooting percentage in every post about him. I don't really consider that to be "glossing over" the subject since it's so well known, especially among his detractors.

And, possibly, because it runs counter to your narrative of "Rajon Rondo, Point God?"

  It's more like "it's nice that you were able to pick up on Rondo's ft shooting and jump shooting, but it turns out
he does enough other things well enough to be one of the better point guards in the league". Tomayto tomahto I suppose.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2013, 04:56:04 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

  I don't feel the need to mention his free throw shooting percentage in every post about him. I don't really consider that to be "glossing over" the subject since it's so well known, especially among his detractors.

And, possibly, because it runs counter to your narrative of "Rajon Rondo, Point God?"

That seems ... a bit snarky and unnecessary?
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Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2013, 04:57:48 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I hate to say I called it cause so did a lot of other people, but it's seemed likely since the trade that KG would have a lot of trouble moving back to PF, especially on D.  He's just not quick enough anymore, especially against mobile 4s.

The next thing I'm expecting are the inevitable personality clashes as the team continues to struggle.  I'm predicting Pierce vs Deron, KG vs Lopez, and Everybody Hates Jason (Kidd). 


EDIT:  I should add that they'll still make the playoffs, they'll just underachieve and bicker to a 1st or maybe 2nd round loss.
Yeah the two games I've watched KG/Lopez are just too slow.

KG is a 5 now and a pretty effective one, but he needs a PF with quickness next to him. (or a C, he and Noah would be fine I guess)

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2013, 04:59:49 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

  I don't feel the need to mention his free throw shooting percentage in every post about him. I don't really consider that to be "glossing over" the subject since it's so well known, especially among his detractors.

And, possibly, because it runs counter to your narrative of "Rajon Rondo, Point God?"

That seems ... a bit snarky and unnecessary?

It could read that way. I don't know--I think we've got enough of a pro-rondo con-rondo rapport going that I can type things like that?


Fair enough. It just looked like you were, uh, glossing over that when you posted his revised stats and his much better defense.

  I don't feel the need to mention his free throw shooting percentage in every post about him. I don't really consider that to be "glossing over" the subject since it's so well known, especially among his detractors.

And, possibly, because it runs counter to your narrative of "Rajon Rondo, Point God?"

  It's more like "it's nice that you were able to pick up on Rondo's ft shooting and jump shooting, but it turns out
he does enough other things well enough to be one of the better point guards in the league". Tomayto tomahto I suppose.


Fair enough. I'd take him over Williams nine out of ten times, assuming he comes back from his knee injury with no ill effects.
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Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2013, 06:32:15 PM »

Offline cman88

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its a long season, theres too much talent on that team for them to not pick it up.

in the same way, I dont see teams like the magic, Celtics, 76ers winning too many games even though their records right now show them at 3-4

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2013, 07:40:48 PM »

Offline mgent

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The biggest problem with that team is D-Will.  He's gone from one of the top 5 players in the NBA to not really interested in playing basketball anymore.  He is just not dedicated anymore.

so he's gone all Mark Blount on them?

But worse, because Williams was, at one point, either 1A or 1B for point guards in the league.

  That was pretty much when Paul was out with a knee injury.

Earlier and later than that, actually. He was right around 20/10 from '07-'11.

  He was close to those stats, but he wasn't really on the level of CP3 before Paul's knee injury. I don't think a ton of people put him on the same level as Rose during his mvp season either.
Williams was definitely ranked by many sources on the same tier as Paul even before his knee injury.  He came out of college a better long range shooter than Paul and took his team over .500 while Paul's was under .500.

  Williams got drafted onto a better team than Paul's. It's not that he made more of a difference. It's also not like he was an MVP candidate when Paul was.
I'm not saying he made more of difference, just relaying one of the arguments for why people ranked them the way they did.  Although, being drafted to a worse team definitely improves your chances of winning MVP.  And it's not even like MVP is a measurement of who's the best player, that's been proven multiple times.

The basic idea is that people didn't know who was going to turn out the better player so they just called them 1A and 1B until they proved differently.  The fact that Deron was much bigger, a better shooter, and on a winning team instead of a losing team was enough to keep him at least on the same level in people's minds.  In 06-07 the year before Paul was an MVP contender, Williams received 15 all-NBA points to Paul's 3.  It's understandable they rose to the top tier together as Kidd/Billups/Nash were getting older and Arenas stopped scoring 30ppg.

  He might have been seen as on the level of CP3 in 06-07 but that's not the same as being 1A-1B for best point guard in the league, Steve Nash would have been widely seen as the best in the league. He wasn't really seen as on Paul's level in the year or two after that when CP was an mvp candidate. He wasn't really seen as the best pg in the league when Rose was the MVP either. The only time he's been widely seen as the best pg in the game was when CP3 was out with a knee injury.
He wasn't seen as on the same level, or even equal, he was seen as better than CP3 according to the votes in 06-07.

Once again, the argument wasn't if Williams was better than Paul before the injury, thank you but you're not the only one that can see hindsight.  The argument was that people saw Williams on the same level as Paul as they rose to the two top PGs in the league.  Potential is always involved in player rankings.  You can't change how people ranked the top PGs 7 years ago, it's just history.  Steve Nash continued on to age better than any other PG in history, nobody can predict things before they happen.
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Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2013, 08:06:02 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I hate to say I called it cause so did a lot of other people, but it's seemed likely since the trade that KG would have a lot of trouble moving back to PF, especially on D.  He's just not quick enough anymore, especially against mobile 4s.

The next thing I'm expecting are the inevitable personality clashes as the team continues to struggle.  I'm predicting Pierce vs Deron, KG vs Lopez, and Everybody Hates Jason (Kidd). 


EDIT:  I should add that they'll still make the playoffs, they'll just underachieve and bicker to a 1st or maybe 2nd round loss.
Yeah the two games I've watched KG/Lopez are just too slow.

KG is a 5 now and a pretty effective one, but he needs a PF with quickness next to him. (or a C, he and Noah would be fine I guess)

I think the end result of this is that KG's gonna wind up coming off the bench, either part-time or full-time.  What are they going to do against the elite smallball lineups?  He can't punish smaller guys on O like he used to. 

And he'll talk nicely about it, say the right things to the media, but it'll drive him absolutely NUTS and probably directly lead to one of the fights I mentioned before.  Really seems to be shaping up this way.

Re: OMG, the Nets stink
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2013, 08:40:24 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I think Brooklyn will be fine but with that I am assuming that Deron Williams will return to form which may be a big IF.  KG is an issue for them.  I think his legs are shot.  They were nearly shot the last couple of years on the Celtics.  He may be able to get himself right for a run in the playoffs but I have my doubts.

I also think Pierce will be fine but he can't do it without Deron Williams.  I feel Williams will dictate the success of the Nets.