Author Topic: Red Sox got hosed  (Read 14866 times)

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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2013, 10:48:00 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 11:01:21 AM »

Offline BigAlTheFuture

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Farrell should have intentionally walked Jay to load up the bases. All of this could have been avoided.
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2013, 11:15:55 AM »

Online Moranis

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Not a Red Sox or Cardinals fan, but I for the life of me can't figure out why Middlebrooks stayed on the bag as long as he did when the throw was clearly way off target.  Had he just given up the play at third and caught the ball cleanly none of that happens.
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2013, 11:26:30 AM »

Offline staticcc

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I'm biased too but the Red Sox did NOT get hosed.

They lost the game because of the bad decisions/indecisions by Farrell (no double switch in the 8th or Napoli in the 9th!?), the bad decision by Salty (why even throw to third?) and the bad decision by Middlebrooks (no need to dive when the throw was clearly off, Nava was right there waiting).
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2013, 11:28:22 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Seems like Joyce (umpire) cant stay clear of of trouble calls..remember the perfect no-hitter
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2013, 11:35:34 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Your point #4 is the one the immediately bothered me. It didn't look like the runner was in the base bath. Not that I would have argued if he made it safely home, but if we're getting technical, I'd love to know if him running outside of the base path there could be called something.

Something I hadn't considered until now is the fact that the rule actual says, "likely". This confirms that it was a judgment call and not a "letter of the law" call. So the ump had discretion and chose to decide the game on that play. If we're all being honest, we probably agree that good judgment is not to allow the momentary discretion of the ump to decide a World Series game like that.

Rule 7,08 allows for a runner to go out of the base path if he is avoiding an interference as long as he resumes a straight bath to the next base.
He was avoiding interference by running right into it? Yeah, that's precisely what he was doing.
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2013, 12:40:48 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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I mean it was obviously obstruction.  There is really no way you can argue against it. Umps made the right call.

The Sox made two wrong calls. 1) not walking the bases loaded. And 2) Salt throwing to third. Eat that ball (in both games) and you have nothing to worry about.

Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2013, 02:58:45 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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My thanks to everyone who weighed in on this.

I agree that bad decisions were made prior to this play. For example, I kept wondering why Salty was still playing—seems he can't make an accurate throw to anyone but the pitcher, and he's struggled just to make contact with the bat. And one guy I don't see getting any blame is Uehara—giving up a double on your first pitch? To a guy who's barely played in the last month?

All of that said ...

Contrary to one of the commenters on this thread, I don't believe I'm merely "arguing semantics." If you're going to say that the right call was made, based on what the rule says, well then, no, they didn't have to make the call they made, because what the rule says (the "very likely" clause) is not absolute.

Besides that, it seems that more than a few people are ignoring all the wrong things that Allen Craig did on the play—pushing Middlebrooks down, for example—and not offering a sufficient answer to my main question: How is it fair to not even give Middlebrooks a chance to get out of the way? It seems to me that he was, in fact, trying to get up to get out of the way when Craig pushed him back to the ground. But I guess the runner can do whatever he wants?
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2013, 05:52:44 PM »

Offline gift

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are there rules for tackling or pushing a guy down so that he can't assist with the play?

if he's in the base path, he doesn't trip over him here. bad base running by not being in the right position. just happens that he was rewarded for it.

Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2013, 05:58:20 PM »

Offline steve

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Hypothetically, if Middlebrooks fell but managed to knock the ball down close to himself, the runner could purposely run into Middlebrooks while he is laying down then get tagged out by a mile and be safe. 

Basically if there is any fielder in the basepath your best bet is to charge him and whatever base you're headed to, you will be safe. 

That's the fallacy of the rule.  Having said that, it was the right call. 

Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2013, 06:56:19 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Hypothetically, if Middlebrooks fell but managed to knock the ball down close to himself, the runner could purposely run into Middlebrooks while he is laying down then get tagged out by a mile and be safe. 

Basically if there is any fielder in the basepath your best bet is to charge him and whatever base you're headed to, you will be safe. 

That's the fallacy of the rule.  Having said that, it was the right call.

In the end, despite my protests, I think you're right: It's "[dang]ed if you do and [dang]ed if you don't."
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Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2013, 08:16:40 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Hypothetically, if Middlebrooks fell but managed to knock the ball down close to himself, the runner could purposely run into Middlebrooks while he is laying down then get tagged out by a mile and be safe. 

Basically if there is any fielder in the basepath your best bet is to charge him and whatever base you're headed to, you will be safe. 

That's the fallacy of the rule.  Having said that, it was the right call.

  I think if the ball's close to him he can still be in the act of fielding the ball, no interference. Also, I think the ump needs to decide that there's a good chance that the player would be safe if not for the interference.

Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2013, 10:10:04 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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are there rules for tackling or pushing a guy down so that he can't assist with the play?

if he's in the base path, he doesn't trip over him here. bad base running by not being in the right position. just happens that he was rewarded for it.

Haha. I love how this is trying to be swayed and twisted as Middlebrooks being "pushed down."

Middlebrooks obstructed the runner resulting in the runner falling on top of him. Where else is he supposed to put his hands?

Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 10:28:59 PM »

Offline Eja117

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are there rules for tackling or pushing a guy down so that he can't assist with the play?

if he's in the base path, he doesn't trip over him here. bad base running by not being in the right position. just happens that he was rewarded for it.

Haha. I love how this is trying to be swayed and twisted as Middlebrooks being "pushed down."

Middlebrooks obstructed the runner resulting in the runner falling on top of him. Where else is he supposed to put his hands?
It's hard for me to consider this because I can't imagine falling in such a situation because I'm minimally athletic. I just saw today 3 six year olds run about 2 miles on nature trails down rock and root riddled paths. Grand total of falls between all three boys running as fast as they could without even paying attention? I think 2.  And when they did they got back up and kept running without really stopping. They weren't pathetic Cardinals baserunners or something.  Personally I'm amazed the guy didn't die from embarrassment. How on Earth do you fall running the bases in the World Series?

Re: Red Sox got hosed
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2013, 10:30:20 PM »

Offline Eja117

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are there rules for tackling or pushing a guy down so that he can't assist with the play?

if he's in the base path, he doesn't trip over him here. bad base running by not being in the right position. just happens that he was rewarded for it.

Haha. I love how this is trying to be swayed and twisted as Middlebrooks being "pushed down."

Middlebrooks obstructed the runner resulting in the runner falling on top of him. Where else is he supposed to put his hands?
Part of the reason for the question is to see if there's such a rule. It would have been stupid to call it, but these umps don't mind making stupid calls.