Teams that may want Rondo

[LarBrd33]

The list of teams who would aggressively go after Rondo is shorter than you think.  Rondo is a top 10 PG at this point (if he is 100%) and there are lots of teams out there who would be perfectly happy with the top 20 PG they already have... then there are teams like the Heat who don't really need a PG at all... and tanking teams who have no interest in trading for a veteran post-prime former all-star. 

Of course Rondo is a top 10 point guard in the league when healthy.  It sort of goes without saying that a player who is a top ten player in the league will be among the top ten at his position.

In both 2012 and 2011, Rondo finished in the top ten in MVP voting.  He had a realistic chance of finishing in the top ten again in 2013 if he hadn't gone down with a knee injury before the midpoint of the season.

This claim that you keep repeating that Rondo is past his prime has no basis in reality.  The fact that you keep writing it in every single one of your posts isn't going to make it true.

Rondo is not a top 10 player in this league.  Period.  I don't care how great he was in a handful of playoff games.  I get it... dude had big games.  JEff Green dropped 40+ against the Heat in one game, but I'm not calling him a superstar either.  We have years of evidence to support Rondo as a Top 5-10 PG.  Let's not exaggerate beyond that. 

And yes... Rondo has peaked.  The needle hasn't moved much over the past 4 years.  You can find individual aspects of his game that may have improved slightly (like his mid-range shot), but statistically he's been about even since 2009-10.  Whether he can return to his prime after major surgery remains to be seen.  I believe his best days are behind him.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.  I didn't even mention his huge playoff performances. 

Again, he was top ten in MVP voting the last two years that he was healthy.  I don't know how you are going to find a more objective criteria to measure top ten status than that.

The bolded statement is in no way an exaggeration.  It's a fact.

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

Completely irrelevant.

Rondo has made Third-Team NBA once in his career.  Never 2nd-Team NBA and never 1st-Team NBA. 

The fact that Rondo had 12 points in MVP voting (compared to LeBron's 1074 points) doesn't really mean much.  If you're going to keep bringing up that asinine fact, present it correctly.... 8 out of 121 sportswriters ranked Rondo 5th in MVP voting.    The other 113 sportswriters didn't rank Rondo at all in MVP voting.

So in other words... 94% of sportswriters didn't think Rondo was in the discussion.  6% of sportswriters (in 2012) thought Rondo was 5th in MVP voting.  Not a single person was insane enough to say ROndo was more deserving of MVP votes than Bron (1014 points), Durant (889 points) or Chris Paul (385 points).  It's basically a nonsense fact.

I wasn't comparing him to Lebron James.  Of course, that would be insane.  We all know that Lebron James stands head and shoulders above everyone else as the best basketball player in the world right now. 

If you don't like using MVP voting as a gauge for determining who the top players are, please share your objective method for ranking the best players in the league. 

I present a fact, while you present your opinion.  Feel free to call that fact asinine.  I don't mind.  I promise to try to show more respect for your opinions, even if I strongly disagree with them.

You're technically right that it's a "fact" that Rondo finished top 10 in MVP voting.   That's a wildly misleading "Fact", though.  Using that same "fact", you can also say that 94% of voters didn't think Rondo was at all in the MVP discussion.  It's also a fact that Kevin Garnett received exactly one 5th place MVP vote last season... so that made him tied for 12th in MVP voting along with Ty Lawson and David Lee.  So take that for what it's worth.

Factually, Rondo has never made a 1st team or 2nd team All-NBA.  It's a fact that most major sports publications (SI/ESPN) rank Rondo out of the top 10. 

My opinion is that Rondo was probably a top 30 player in his prime.  At one point, it could be argued he was one of the 5 best PG's in the league.  Easily top 10.   At this point, there are some young guys coming up who are taking those spots (Curry, Irving, etc).  IF he returns healthy from his major injury, I could see him still being an effective player.  He's my favorite player to watch.  If Boston wasn't in the midst of a 5 year rebuild, I'd want to keep him.  But we're nowhere near competing and we're a good half-decade away from being relevant again.  Wide consensus is that we'll trade Rondo.  People point out teams like Detroit as a possibility.  My wild guess is the Pacers... just cuz.

Also you have ROndo ranked 8th above at least a handful of players the Celtics would trade Rondo straight-up for right now without blinking. 

I'm an admitted pessimist, though.  You're an optimist.  We're both fans.  You say top 8. I say top 30.  Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  SI says #26.  ESPN says #27. 

[D.o.s.]

He could probably score 15-20 routinely while still dropping 8-12 assists and 8 rebounds.

Yeah, ok.

Here's the list of players who've done that, on the conservative end of your estimates (averaging at least a 15-8-8) for an entire season since 1946.

Jordan. Magic. Wilt. Oscar.

Wilt was the only one to do it after turning 27.

[BballTim]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

[LarBrd33]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

Rondo didn't play bad last season.  He was having his best statistical season ever.  It was a Rondo-centric offense and he was given a free pass to load up on the assists.  I didn't really mind it.  He looked good.  Unfortunately, the team just sucked under his leadership and they were below .500 when he went out.  They then decided to share the ball and dug themselves out of the hole. 

Rondo is what he is at this point.  He'll give you 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night in a Rondo-centric offense.  That's remained pretty consistent since 2009-10.   It remains to be seen what he can do with lesser offense weapons surrounding him, more pressure, post-injury ACL and a less Rondo-centric offense where the players share the ball.   Highly unlikely we're going to see him make a leap.  My guess is he'll be slightly less effective than he was in his pre-injury 2009-2013 prime. 

I think if he can recover, the vet will still be a great player to have for a team like Indiana who is trying to make a title run.

[BballTim]

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

It's difficult finding too many examples of really good teams that were built around guys who aren't likely to average more than 12-14 points per game in a given season.

Steve Nash and Jason Kidd come to mind, but both averaged 16-18 points numerous times throughout their careers.  Steve Nash was one of the best shooters ever.

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

If you can do it, please find that example and show me.

John Stockton and Dennis Rodman had career scoring averages of about 13 and 7 points a game respectively.

Stockton led the Jazz to the finals twice, with Karl Malone as the primary scoring option. I think both of those finals teams can qualify the really good team test.

Rodman was a key part of each championship team he played on. Especially the 1996 Bulls, who were arguably one of the best teams ever [72-10]. Jordan and Pippen were obviously their primary scoring options.

Rodman and Stockton are also hall of famers.

Well, I think you have all the answers you need in your own post here.

Stockton needed to be paired with one of the most prolific scorers ever.  Yes, Stockton made Malone better.  But without Malone, how good would have those teams been?

  Probably about as good as they'd have been without Stockton. Maybe a little better, maybe not.

[Celtics18]

The list of teams who would aggressively go after Rondo is shorter than you think.  Rondo is a top 10 PG at this point (if he is 100%) and there are lots of teams out there who would be perfectly happy with the top 20 PG they already have... then there are teams like the Heat who don't really need a PG at all... and tanking teams who have no interest in trading for a veteran post-prime former all-star. 

Of course Rondo is a top 10 point guard in the league when healthy.  It sort of goes without saying that a player who is a top ten player in the league will be among the top ten at his position.

In both 2012 and 2011, Rondo finished in the top ten in MVP voting.  He had a realistic chance of finishing in the top ten again in 2013 if he hadn't gone down with a knee injury before the midpoint of the season.

This claim that you keep repeating that Rondo is past his prime has no basis in reality.  The fact that you keep writing it in every single one of your posts isn't going to make it true.

Rondo is not a top 10 player in this league.  Period.  I don't care how great he was in a handful of playoff games.  I get it... dude had big games.  JEff Green dropped 40+ against the Heat in one game, but I'm not calling him a superstar either.  We have years of evidence to support Rondo as a Top 5-10 PG.  Let's not exaggerate beyond that. 

And yes... Rondo has peaked.  The needle hasn't moved much over the past 4 years.  You can find individual aspects of his game that may have improved slightly (like his mid-range shot), but statistically he's been about even since 2009-10.  Whether he can return to his prime after major surgery remains to be seen.  I believe his best days are behind him.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.  I didn't even mention his huge playoff performances. 

Again, he was top ten in MVP voting the last two years that he was healthy.  I don't know how you are going to find a more objective criteria to measure top ten status than that.

The bolded statement is in no way an exaggeration.  It's a fact.

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

Completely irrelevant.

Rondo has made Third-Team NBA once in his career.  Never 2nd-Team NBA and never 1st-Team NBA. 

The fact that Rondo had 12 points in MVP voting (compared to LeBron's 1074 points) doesn't really mean much.  If you're going to keep bringing up that asinine fact, present it correctly.... 8 out of 121 sportswriters ranked Rondo 5th in MVP voting.    The other 113 sportswriters didn't rank Rondo at all in MVP voting.

So in other words... 94% of sportswriters didn't think Rondo was in the discussion.  6% of sportswriters (in 2012) thought Rondo was 5th in MVP voting.  Not a single person was insane enough to say ROndo was more deserving of MVP votes than Bron (1014 points), Durant (889 points) or Chris Paul (385 points).  It's basically a nonsense fact.

I wasn't comparing him to Lebron James.  Of course, that would be insane.  We all know that Lebron James stands head and shoulders above everyone else as the best basketball player in the world right now. 

If you don't like using MVP voting as a gauge for determining who the top players are, please share your objective method for ranking the best players in the league. 

I present a fact, while you present your opinion.  Feel free to call that fact asinine.  I don't mind.  I promise to try to show more respect for your opinions, even if I strongly disagree with them.

You're technically right that it's a "fact" that Rondo finished top 10 in MVP voting.   That's a wildly misleading "Fact", though.  Using that same "fact", you can also say that 94% of voters didn't think Rondo was at all in the MVP discussion.  It's also a fact that Kevin Garnett received exactly one 5th place MVP vote last season... so that made him tied for 12th in MVP voting along with Ty Lawson and David Lee.  So take that for what it's worth.

Factually, Rondo has never made a 1st team or 2nd team All-NBA.  It's a fact that most major sports publications (SI/ESPN) rank Rondo out of the top 10. 

My opinion is that Rondo was probably a top 30 player in his prime.  At one point, it could be argued he was one of the 5 best PG's in the league.  Easily top 10.   At this point, there are some young guys coming up who are taking those spots (Curry, Irving, etc).  IF he returns healthy from his major injury, I could see him still being an effective player.  He's my favorite player to watch.  If Boston wasn't in the midst of a 5 year rebuild, I'd want to keep him.  But we're nowhere near competing and we're a good half-decade away from being relevant again. Wide consensus is that we'll trade Rondo.  People point out teams like Detroit as a possibility.  My wild guess is the Pacers... just cuz.

Also you have ROndo ranked 8th above at least a handful of players the Celtics would trade Rondo straight-up for right now without blinking. 

I'm an admitted pessimist, though.  You're an optimist.  We're both fans.  You say top 8. I say top 30.  Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  SI says #26.  ESPN says #27.

The two bolded sections of your last post are examples of the type of comments that have absolutely no grounding in reality. 

I can't be too mad at ESPN and SI for having Rondo at #26 and #27 in the league right now.  I get that there are question marks surrounding how well he returns. 

Have at your pessimism.  It's your CelticBlog given right, but, boy is it tedious when you throw in as an aside in almost every one of your posts that Rondo is washed up.  It may be your opinion, but there's a very good chance that your opinion will end up being proven wrong. 

[BballTim]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

Rondo didn't play bad last season.  He was having his best statistical season ever.  It was a Rondo-centric offense and he was given a free pass to load up on the assists.  I didn't really mind it.  He looked good.  Unfortunately, the team just sucked under his leadership and they were below .500 when he went out.  They then decided to share the ball and dug themselves out of the hole. 

Rondo is what he is at this point.  He'll give you 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night in a Rondo-centric offense.  That's remained pretty consistent since 2009-10.   It remains to be seen what he can do with lesser offense weapons surrounding him, more pressure, post-injury ACL and a less Rondo-centric offense where the players share the ball.   Highly unlikely we're going to see him make a leap.  My guess is he'll be slightly less effective than he was in his pre-injury 2009-2013 prime. 

I think if he can recover, the vet will still be a great player to have for a team like Indiana who is trying to make a title run.

  All last year you were claiming that PP was a much bigger part of the offense than Rondo, now when you're trying to make Rondo look bad it's "Rondo-centric". Too funny.

[D.o.s.]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

Rondo didn't play bad last season.  He was having his best statistical season ever.  It was a Rondo-centric offense and he was given a free pass to load up on the assists.  I didn't really mind it.  He looked good.  Unfortunately, the team just sucked under his leadership and they were below .500 when he went out.  They then decided to share the ball and dug themselves out of the hole. 

Rondo is what he is at this point.  He'll give you 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night in a Rondo-centric offense.  That's remained pretty consistent since 2009-10.   It remains to be seen what he can do with lesser offense weapons surrounding him, more pressure, post-injury ACL and a less Rondo-centric offense where the players share the ball.   Highly unlikely we're going to see him make a leap.  My guess is he'll be slightly less effective than he was in his pre-injury 2009-2013 prime. 

I think if he can recover, the vet will still be a great player to have for a team like Indiana who is trying to make a title run.

  All last year you were claiming that PP was a much bigger part of the offense than Rondo, now when you're trying to make Rondo look bad it's "Rondo-centric". Too funny.

Alternatively, since you've been saying that Rondo's been our best player since 2009, do you disagree with his assessment/projection of 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night?

[BballTim]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

Rondo didn't play bad last season.  He was having his best statistical season ever.  It was a Rondo-centric offense and he was given a free pass to load up on the assists.  I didn't really mind it.  He looked good.  Unfortunately, the team just sucked under his leadership and they were below .500 when he went out.  They then decided to share the ball and dug themselves out of the hole. 

Rondo is what he is at this point.  He'll give you 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night in a Rondo-centric offense.  That's remained pretty consistent since 2009-10.   It remains to be seen what he can do with lesser offense weapons surrounding him, more pressure, post-injury ACL and a less Rondo-centric offense where the players share the ball.   Highly unlikely we're going to see him make a leap.  My guess is he'll be slightly less effective than he was in his pre-injury 2009-2013 prime. 

I think if he can recover, the vet will still be a great player to have for a team like Indiana who is trying to make a title run.

  All last year you were claiming that PP was a much bigger part of the offense than Rondo, now when you're trying to make Rondo look bad it's "Rondo-centric". Too funny.

Alternatively, since you've been saying that Rondo's been our best player since 2009, do you disagree with his assessment/projection of 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night?

  I can recall saying he's been our best player since mid-2010, not since 2009. I don't have any predictions for Rondo yet (way too many variables) but I wouldn't worry too much about his predictions, a few days ago he had Rondo going for something like  8 points and 5 assists this year.

[Rhyso]

The two bolded sections of your last post are examples of the type of comments that have absolutely no grounding in reality. 

I can't be too mad at ESPN and SI for having Rondo at #26 and #27 in the league right now.  I get that there are question marks surrounding how well he returns. 

Have at your pessimism.  It's your CelticBlog given right, but, boy is it tedious when you throw in as an aside in almost every one of your posts that Rondo is washed up.  It may be your opinion, but there's a very good chance that your opinion will end up being proven wrong.

TP

Also if Rondo was ranked #12th in the ESPN rankings before his injury, shouldn't we assume he would be back around there if he fully recovers from his injury? Saying he is a top 30 player when healthy is just plain ridiculous, sure he often cruises during the season but like you said he shows up when it counts, and when he does he is a top 5 player. I don't know if you can say the same thing for most players ranked higher than him.

[D.o.s.]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

Rondo didn't play bad last season.  He was having his best statistical season ever.  It was a Rondo-centric offense and he was given a free pass to load up on the assists.  I didn't really mind it.  He looked good.  Unfortunately, the team just sucked under his leadership and they were below .500 when he went out.  They then decided to share the ball and dug themselves out of the hole. 

Rondo is what he is at this point.  He'll give you 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night in a Rondo-centric offense.  That's remained pretty consistent since 2009-10.   It remains to be seen what he can do with lesser offense weapons surrounding him, more pressure, post-injury ACL and a less Rondo-centric offense where the players share the ball.   Highly unlikely we're going to see him make a leap.  My guess is he'll be slightly less effective than he was in his pre-injury 2009-2013 prime. 

I think if he can recover, the vet will still be a great player to have for a team like Indiana who is trying to make a title run.

  All last year you were claiming that PP was a much bigger part of the offense than Rondo, now when you're trying to make Rondo look bad it's "Rondo-centric". Too funny.

Alternatively, since you've been saying that Rondo's been our best player since 2009, do you disagree with his assessment/projection of 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night?

  I can recall saying he's been our best player since mid-2010, not since 2009. I don't have any predictions for Rondo yet (way too many variables) but I wouldn't worry too much about his predictions, a few days ago he had Rondo going for something like  8 points and 5 assists this year.

It's a selfish question--I use the two of you as my Rondo barometers and figure he'll usually play worse than you predict and better than LrBrd's assessment.

[Celtics18]

I'll accept that it "remains to be seen" whether he can return to his prime after returning from surgery.  I believe that he can.

RE Rondo and MVP voting, its a wholly subjective exercise, that I don't think does much for your argument here. He was 8th in voting in 2012, tallying 2 4th place votes and 6 5th place votes. So basically, 8 people out of a potential 121 voters thought he was a top-5 player. However, they only go 1-5, so while we see the guys who think he's an elite NBA player, the guys who would've voted him 21st, or 50th (cuz there will be 'that guy' as well) aren't counted.

ESPN's top-100 list is more useful. They poll 1000 people, and they rate every NBA player, then organize the list from highest rated to lowest rated. In that setting, he's rated 27th heading into this next season. Previously he was rated 12th, and before that 17th.

O.K., so the last time he was healthy, he finished 12th in that ESPN poll.  I don't think it's outside the range of possibility that if he returns to full health and plays the way he did for the '11-'12 season that he could move up two spots in that poll.

Or, would you guys be happier if I referred to him as a top 12 player instead of a top 10 player?

Its not outside the realm of pastability, but its not the most probable outcome.

He's got a bad year (by the standards set my the playoffs he was coming off of and his overall growth the previous seasons) overall against him from last season, on top of that major injury, on top of that major team overhaul with significantly less talent, brand new coach...

  Rondo wasn't having a bad year last season. He started out the year in the middle of his assist streak (13 assists/game in Nov) and was playing very well when he was injured (15/7/10 in Jan despite struggling with injuries). PP/JG/Jet (struggling with injuries) were playing poorly for long stretches in the first half of the season and quite a few people had trouble figuring out that was somehow different from Rondo playing poorly but his play was pretty good.

Rondo didn't play bad last season.  He was having his best statistical season ever.  It was a Rondo-centric offense and he was given a free pass to load up on the assists.  I didn't really mind it.  He looked good.  Unfortunately, the team just sucked under his leadership and they were below .500 when he went out.  They then decided to share the ball and dug themselves out of the hole. 

Rondo is what he is at this point.  He'll give you 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night in a Rondo-centric offense.  That's remained pretty consistent since 2009-10.   It remains to be seen what he can do with lesser offense weapons surrounding him, more pressure, post-injury ACL and a less Rondo-centric offense where the players share the ball.   Highly unlikely we're going to see him make a leap.  My guess is he'll be slightly less effective than he was in his pre-injury 2009-2013 prime. 

I think if he can recover, the vet will still be a great player to have for a team like Indiana who is trying to make a title run.

  All last year you were claiming that PP was a much bigger part of the offense than Rondo, now when you're trying to make Rondo look bad it's "Rondo-centric". Too funny.

Alternatively, since you've been saying that Rondo's been our best player since 2009, do you disagree with his assessment/projection of 11-13 points, 8-12 assists and 4-6 boards a night?

I'll take 13, 12 and 6.  Actually, let's round up the 13.7 properly and make it 14,12, and 6.  I don't see a lot of guys in the league (if any) other than Rajon Rondo capable of those kinds of numbers. 

[BballTim]

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

It's difficult finding too many examples of really good teams that were built around guys who aren't likely to average more than 12-14 points per game in a given season.

Steve Nash and Jason Kidd come to mind, but both averaged 16-18 points numerous times throughout their careers.  Steve Nash was one of the best shooters ever.

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

If you can do it, please find that example and show me.

John Stockton and Dennis Rodman had career scoring averages of about 13 and 7 points a game respectively.

Stockton led the Jazz to the finals twice, with Karl Malone as the primary scoring option. I think both of those finals teams can qualify the really good team test.

Rodman was a key part of each championship team he played on. Especially the 1996 Bulls, who were arguably one of the best teams ever [72-10]. Jordan and Pippen were obviously their primary scoring options.

Rodman and Stockton are also hall of famers.

Well, I think you have all the answers you need in your own post here.

Stockton needed to be paired with one of the most prolific scorers ever.  Yes, Stockton made Malone better.  But without Malone, how good would have those teams been?

Same with Rodman.  He was a key part of championship teams.  But he was never the key part.

exactly when your examples aren't even the best players on the teams you are talking about you know the answer to the question.  You don't build around guys that can't score.  It hasn't been done before and I would contend it hasn't been done before for a reason.  There is also a reason that aside from Magic and Isiah PG led teams don't win championships and rarely even are playing for them.

  Yes, it's the same reason teams led by small forwards other than Larry or LeBron rarely win, or teams led by shooting guards other than MJ or Kobe, or teams led by centers other than Shaq or Hakeem, or teams led by power forwards other than Duncan. It's not the position that matters, it's the player being a transcendent talent. And how many top point guards other than Nash and current players under 30 didn't play for a championship?

[Mr Green]

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

It's difficult finding too many examples of really good teams that were built around guys who aren't likely to average more than 12-14 points per game in a given season.

Steve Nash and Jason Kidd come to mind, but both averaged 16-18 points numerous times throughout their careers.  Steve Nash was one of the best shooters ever.

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

If you can do it, please find that example and show me.

John Stockton and Dennis Rodman had career scoring averages of about 13 and 7 points a game respectively.

Stockton led the Jazz to the finals twice, with Karl Malone as the primary scoring option. I think both of those finals teams can qualify the really good team test.

Rodman was a key part of each championship team he played on. Especially the 1996 Bulls, who were arguably one of the best teams ever [72-10]. Jordan and Pippen were obviously their primary scoring options.

Rodman and Stockton are also hall of famers.

Well, I think you have all the answers you need in your own post here.

Stockton needed to be paired with one of the most prolific scorers ever.  Yes, Stockton made Malone better.  But without Malone, how good would have those teams been?

Same with Rodman.  He was a key part of championship teams.  But he was never the key part.

exactly when your examples aren't even the best players on the teams you are talking about you know the answer to the question.  You don't build around guys that can't score.  It hasn't been done before and I would contend it hasn't been done before for a reason.  There is also a reason that aside from Magic and Isiah PG led teams don't win championships and rarely even are playing for them.

  Yes, it's the same reason teams led by small forwards other than Larry or LeBron rarely win, or teams led by shooting guards other than MJ or Kobe, or teams led by centers other than Shaq or Hakeem, or teams led by power forwards other than Duncan. It's not the position that matters, it's the player being a transcendent talent. And how many top point guards other than Nash and current players under 30 didn't play for a championship?

Exactly! TP.

[LarBrd33]

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

It's difficult finding too many examples of really good teams that were built around guys who aren't likely to average more than 12-14 points per game in a given season.

Steve Nash and Jason Kidd come to mind, but both averaged 16-18 points numerous times throughout their careers.  Steve Nash was one of the best shooters ever.

Is it me or are you arguing there is no difference between 'player you can build around' and 'No. 1 option on offense?' I know they overlap in several championship teams, but that does not mean that you cannot build a championship roster around a facilitator like Rondo.

If you can do it, please find that example and show me.

John Stockton and Dennis Rodman had career scoring averages of about 13 and 7 points a game respectively.

Stockton led the Jazz to the finals twice, with Karl Malone as the primary scoring option. I think both of those finals teams can qualify the really good team test.

Rodman was a key part of each championship team he played on. Especially the 1996 Bulls, who were arguably one of the best teams ever [72-10]. Jordan and Pippen were obviously their primary scoring options.

Rodman and Stockton are also hall of famers.

Well, I think you have all the answers you need in your own post here.

Stockton needed to be paired with one of the most prolific scorers ever.  Yes, Stockton made Malone better.  But without Malone, how good would have those teams been?

Same with Rodman.  He was a key part of championship teams.  But he was never the key part.

exactly when your examples aren't even the best players on the teams you are talking about you know the answer to the question.  You don't build around guys that can't score.  It hasn't been done before and I would contend it hasn't been done before for a reason.  There is also a reason that aside from Magic and Isiah PG led teams don't win championships and rarely even are playing for them.

  Yes, it's the same reason teams led by small forwards other than Larry or LeBron rarely win, or teams led by shooting guards other than MJ or Kobe, or teams led by centers other than Shaq or Hakeem, or teams led by power forwards other than Duncan. It's not the position that matters, it's the player being a transcendent talent. And how many top point guards other than Nash and current players under 30 didn't play for a championship?

Exactly! TP.

The greater point is that you need an elite scorer or an elite big man.  Often you need both.  There's really no examples of teams that won titles, because their PG got a lot of assists.  It's about the bigs and the dudes who can put the ball in the bucket.

Rondo's a good talent.  He can be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a contender.  He doesn't make a lot of sense on a 26 win lotto squad that is a half decade away from relevance... which is why the media keeps writing about how it's the "worst kept secret in the NBA" that Rondo will be traded this season.  My random guess is Indiana.   I figure it has to be a team that is competitive already and could use an upgrade at PG. 

It's a short list.  There's teams like Memphis that would probably be content hanging onto Mike Conley.  Denver would be fine hanging onto Ty Lawson.  Lotto teams don't want Rondo for the same reason Boston will trade Rondo.  At some point we'll probably just have to take what we can get.