Author Topic: Webber in the Hall of Fame?  (Read 7749 times)

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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2013, 11:19:02 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I always thought Webber was in the Sheed category which most have said has no chance of getting in

I would agree with that analogy in a lot of ways, but  Webber's numbers are much better than Sheed's.

Sheed's career numbers: 14.4/6.7/1.8 46%/33%/72%

C-Webb: 20.9/9.8/4.3 47%/29/65%


Also, for what it's worth, Basketball reference's formula has him with 75% probability to gain entry.

Sheed did a lot more with his teams.

And come on? If sheed retired when webber did his numbers would look better. We really including last years knicks season against him with career numbers?

  Compare them through age 29, after which Webber's injuries really limited his play. Webber's numbers are quite a bit better.

Not to mention that Sheed played little enough with the Knicks that the numbers don't really move one way or the other.

For the record, I really enjoyed both players. Two defining, and very different, power forwards.

I'd put them both in the Hall if it was up to me--especially since there are so many guys who fall short of both but were almost grandfathered in due to the era that they played.
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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2013, 11:22:53 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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The BS Report does a great breakdown (as Yoki already mentioned), and as others have mentioned, killer 5 year stretch, and that awful 02 Laker series that robbed Webber of a likely title...

I agree with Bill Simmons and Lowe, 'he hits that sweetspot where some guys get in, but a lot of them don't.'

And I don't think he does.

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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2013, 12:20:12 AM »

Offline moiso

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The Pistons would have been at least as good with Webber instead of Wallace.  Webber was such a great passer... he would have been great on that team.

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2013, 12:37:46 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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The Pistons would have been at least as good with Webber instead of Wallace.  Webber was such a great passer... he would have been great on that team.

I don't think you can really say that definitively. Webber was a great passer, Sheed was a better defender, and his role offensively on those Pistons teams was perfect for him. Webber didn't have that 48% unstoppable 15 footer like Sheed did, and well, they're different players. I think Webber would've suffered more from Wallace's presence on the offensive end than Sheed did as well. Plus, the chemistry there..it just worked. Worked like it did for Webber in Sacramento (Sheed for instance could never have done for the Kings what Webber did either).

I think they may have been better, but they also might have been worse. They would surely have been different.

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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2013, 05:02:54 AM »

Offline Galeto

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The Pistons would have been at least as good with Webber instead of Wallace.  Webber was such a great passer... he would have been great on that team.

I don't think you can really say that definitively. Webber was a great passer, Sheed was a better defender, and his role offensively on those Pistons teams was perfect for him. Webber didn't have that 48% unstoppable 15 footer like Sheed did, and well, they're different players. I think Webber would've suffered more from Wallace's presence on the offensive end than Sheed did as well. Plus, the chemistry there..it just worked. Worked like it did for Webber in Sacramento (Sheed for instance could never have done for the Kings what Webber did either).

I think they may have been better, but they also might have been worse. They would surely have been different.

Maybe not definitively but I think the chances that the Pistons would've been just as good with Webber instead of Wallace are pretty good.  The biggest hit on paper is on defense not necessarily because Webber was a bad defender but because Rasheed was an excellent one who fit perfectly with Ben.  Still, looking at Webber's and Sacramento's defensive ratings, Webber's ratings were outstanding and Sacramento finished in the top 10 on defense four times (10th, 7th, 6th and 2nd).  The season he came back late from microfracture, Sacramento fell to 21st on defense from 2nd.  Maybe Detroit wouldn't have been historically elite on defense like the year they won the championship, but they would still have been at the top. 

On offense, Detroit would've been different without Rasheed stretching the floor and Webber commanding more of the offense in the post but because neither Hamilton or Billups were prolific drivers to the hoop, having Webber and Wallace take up space in the paint wouldn't have affected their game as much.  And while Webber's scoring ability was overrated because his efficiency was low, his outstanding passing would've fit well with the excellent shooting of Hamilton and Billups.

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2013, 08:30:58 AM »

Online Donoghus

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I am really surprised people have Webber ahead of or even equal to Rasheed Wallace.

Sheed had a far far more successful career. An NBA title. A 2nd Finals appearance where he came within minutes of back-to-back titles. 2 more Conference Finals appearances in Portland. Plus another 3 in Detroit. And then finally one last Finals appearance in here in Boston as a key bench player. That is 3 Finals appearances and 8 trips to the Conference Finals. Repeat that again. 1 title, 3 trips to the Finals and 8 years in the Conference Finals.

What did Chris Webber do? No Championship. No trips to the Finals. Only once ... ONCE!!! ... did he lead his team to the Conference Finals in Sacramento. And then once again, a 2nd Conference Finals trip, in Detroit (thanks to Sheed and Co.) as a role player.

Webber had a higher peak but it was too short. Injuries took his best years away from him. That brief period dDoesn't make up for the HUGE difference in team success between the two of them.

I am not sold on Webber in the HoF (peak too short, not enough team success) but I definitely think Sheed should be there along with Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton. The four of them.

The success they achieved together in Detroit was terrific. 7 50 win seasons. 6 conference finals showings. 2 Finals appearances. 1 NBA Title. Played a key role in every Title for 6 straight seasons.

Plus, Sheed had his successes in Portland + Chauncey in Denver + to a lesser extent, Big Ben in Cleveland + Rip had the NCAA title but not the team success in NBA outside of Detroit.

It's simple.

Team success is only one of the attributes to consider when evaluating a player for HOF purposes. 

Webber was a better basketball player.  The stats spell that out.  Watching him played spelled that out to me.
Webber was simply more talented.

Webber was the better talent & Sheed had the better team successes.

I'll use team success as a tiebreaker if I feel 2 guys are on the same plane.  These two were not.

That being said, Webber is borderline HOF while Sheed is not.

So we are talking Vimce carter as head and shoulders above manu ginobli for HOF?

No.  Who on here said that?

I don't think Vince Carter belongs in the Hall of Fame.


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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2013, 08:35:01 AM »

Offline eja117

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I am really surprised people have Webber ahead of or even equal to Rasheed Wallace.

Sheed had a far far more successful career. An NBA title. A 2nd Finals appearance where he came within minutes of back-to-back titles. 2 more Conference Finals appearances in Portland. Plus another 3 in Detroit. And then finally one last Finals appearance in here in Boston as a key bench player. That is 3 Finals appearances and 8 trips to the Conference Finals. Repeat that again. 1 title, 3 trips to the Finals and 8 years in the Conference Finals.

What did Chris Webber do? No Championship. No trips to the Finals. Only once ... ONCE!!! ... did he lead his team to the Conference Finals in Sacramento. And then once again, a 2nd Conference Finals trip, in Detroit (thanks to Sheed and Co.) as a role player.

Webber had a higher peak but it was too short. Injuries took his best years away from him. That brief period dDoesn't make up for the HUGE difference in team success between the two of them.

I am not sold on Webber in the HoF (peak too short, not enough team success) but I definitely think Sheed should be there along with Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton. The four of them.

The success they achieved together in Detroit was terrific. 7 50 win seasons. 6 conference finals showings. 2 Finals appearances. 1 NBA Title. Played a key role in every Title for 6 straight seasons.

Plus, Sheed had his successes in Portland + Chauncey in Denver + to a lesser extent, Big Ben in Cleveland + Rip had the NCAA title but not the team success in NBA outside of Detroit.

It's simple.

Team success is only one of the attributes to consider when evaluating a player for HOF purposes. 

Webber was a better basketball player.  The stats spell that out.  Watching him played spelled that out to me.
Webber was simply more talented.

Webber was the better talent & Sheed had the better team successes.

I'll use team success as a tiebreaker if I feel 2 guys are on the same plane.  These two were not.

That being said, Webber is borderline HOF while Sheed is not.

So we are talking Vimce carter as head and shoulders above manu ginobli for HOF?
God yes. Absolutely yes.

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2013, 08:43:23 AM »

Online Donoghus

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I am really surprised people have Webber ahead of or even equal to Rasheed Wallace.

Sheed had a far far more successful career. An NBA title. A 2nd Finals appearance where he came within minutes of back-to-back titles. 2 more Conference Finals appearances in Portland. Plus another 3 in Detroit. And then finally one last Finals appearance in here in Boston as a key bench player. That is 3 Finals appearances and 8 trips to the Conference Finals. Repeat that again. 1 title, 3 trips to the Finals and 8 years in the Conference Finals.

What did Chris Webber do? No Championship. No trips to the Finals. Only once ... ONCE!!! ... did he lead his team to the Conference Finals in Sacramento. And then once again, a 2nd Conference Finals trip, in Detroit (thanks to Sheed and Co.) as a role player.

Webber had a higher peak but it was too short. Injuries took his best years away from him. That brief period dDoesn't make up for the HUGE difference in team success between the two of them.

I am not sold on Webber in the HoF (peak too short, not enough team success) but I definitely think Sheed should be there along with Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton. The four of them.

The success they achieved together in Detroit was terrific. 7 50 win seasons. 6 conference finals showings. 2 Finals appearances. 1 NBA Title. Played a key role in every Title for 6 straight seasons.

Plus, Sheed had his successes in Portland + Chauncey in Denver + to a lesser extent, Big Ben in Cleveland + Rip had the NCAA title but not the team success in NBA outside of Detroit.

It's simple.

Team success is only one of the attributes to consider when evaluating a player for HOF purposes. 

Webber was a better basketball player.  The stats spell that out.  Watching him played spelled that out to me.
Webber was simply more talented.

Webber was the better talent & Sheed had the better team successes.

I'll use team success as a tiebreaker if I feel 2 guys are on the same plane.  These two were not.

That being said, Webber is borderline HOF while Sheed is not.

You have team success a lot lower on the scale than I do.



Not really.I think you're just misinterpreting what I wrote or maybe I wasn't clear enough.

In a nutshell, I think the gap between Webber & Wallace, big picture wise, is big enough where the team successes of Wallace isn't enough to put him on the same level as Webber.

Like I mentioned before, though, I don't think either really belong in the HOF although I would consider Webber "borderline" and Wallace not.


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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2013, 11:00:43 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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I am really surprised people have Webber ahead of or even equal to Rasheed Wallace.

Sheed had a far far more successful career. An NBA title. A 2nd Finals appearance where he came within minutes of back-to-back titles. 2 more Conference Finals appearances in Portland. Plus another 3 in Detroit. And then finally one last Finals appearance in here in Boston as a key bench player. That is 3 Finals appearances and 8 trips to the Conference Finals. Repeat that again. 1 title, 3 trips to the Finals and 8 years in the Conference Finals.

What did Chris Webber do? No Championship. No trips to the Finals. Only once ... ONCE!!! ... did he lead his team to the Conference Finals in Sacramento. And then once again, a 2nd Conference Finals trip, in Detroit (thanks to Sheed and Co.) as a role player.

Webber had a higher peak but it was too short. Injuries took his best years away from him. That brief period dDoesn't make up for the HUGE difference in team success between the two of them.

I am not sold on Webber in the HoF (peak too short, not enough team success) but I definitely think Sheed should be there along with Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton. The four of them.

The success they achieved together in Detroit was terrific. 7 50 win seasons. 6 conference finals showings. 2 Finals appearances. 1 NBA Title. Played a key role in every Title for 6 straight seasons.

Plus, Sheed had his successes in Portland + Chauncey in Denver + to a lesser extent, Big Ben in Cleveland + Rip had the NCAA title but not the team success in NBA outside of Detroit.

It's simple.

Team success is only one of the attributes to consider when evaluating a player for HOF purposes. 

Webber was a better basketball player.  The stats spell that out.  Watching him played spelled that out to me.
Webber was simply more talented.

Webber was the better talent & Sheed had the better team successes.

I'll use team success as a tiebreaker if I feel 2 guys are on the same plane.  These two were not.

That being said, Webber is borderline HOF while Sheed is not.

So we are talking Vimce carter as head and shoulders above manu ginobli for HOF?

No.  Who on here said that?

I don't think Vince Carter belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Vince carters individual success easily outweighs Manu Ginoblis.

There's another thread about ginobli being a lock for HOF. I actually commented on it cause of a Van gundy comment during a broadcast referring to him as. "Sure fire hall of famer" which I thought was pretty bold.

Was Vince carter one of the best in the game during a few year span? I'd say so. Was Ginobli? Never even close.

I'm taking a wild guess that you (if not you prob 75% on this blog) would rate Ginobli over carter in yerms of the hall

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2013, 11:05:33 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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I am really surprised people have Webber ahead of or even equal to Rasheed Wallace.

Sheed had a far far more successful career. An NBA title. A 2nd Finals appearance where he came within minutes of back-to-back titles. 2 more Conference Finals appearances in Portland. Plus another 3 in Detroit. And then finally one last Finals appearance in here in Boston as a key bench player. That is 3 Finals appearances and 8 trips to the Conference Finals. Repeat that again. 1 title, 3 trips to the Finals and 8 years in the Conference Finals.

What did Chris Webber do? No Championship. No trips to the Finals. Only once ... ONCE!!! ... did he lead his team to the Conference Finals in Sacramento. And then once again, a 2nd Conference Finals trip, in Detroit (thanks to Sheed and Co.) as a role player.

Webber had a higher peak but it was too short. Injuries took his best years away from him. That brief period dDoesn't make up for the HUGE difference in team success between the two of them.

I am not sold on Webber in the HoF (peak too short, not enough team success) but I definitely think Sheed should be there along with Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton. The four of them.

The success they achieved together in Detroit was terrific. 7 50 win seasons. 6 conference finals showings. 2 Finals appearances. 1 NBA Title. Played a key role in every Title for 6 straight seasons.

Plus, Sheed had his successes in Portland + Chauncey in Denver + to a lesser extent, Big Ben in Cleveland + Rip had the NCAA title but not the team success in NBA outside of Detroit.

It's simple.

Team success is only one of the attributes to consider when evaluating a player for HOF purposes. 

Webber was a better basketball player.  The stats spell that out.  Watching him played spelled that out to me.
Webber was simply more talented.

Webber was the better talent & Sheed had the better team successes.

I'll use team success as a tiebreaker if I feel 2 guys are on the same plane.  These two were not.

That being said, Webber is borderline HOF while Sheed is not.

So we are talking Vimce carter as head and shoulders above manu ginobli for HOF?
God yes. Absolutely yes.

I like the consistency. You either weigh individual or peak play more than team success. Thats all a matter of preference and that's fine.  Some people rate team success higher some rate individual performance higher. It will be hard to argue with someone who rates one or the other higher since they have their own thoughts in what's more important.

Which really turns the discussion into what does everyone think are the most important things which people talk about all the time

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2013, 11:11:55 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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The issue I always had, and I know a lot of Sacramento fans felt the same way because I lived there for several years during the Webber years, was this: even on those great teams Webber was never really "the man."

On those great teams Vlade made the offense go, running things out of the low post. If the Kings needed a big hoop, you wanted Bibby to take the shot.

Webber was one of those guys who you never really trusted to produce, or even make the right decision, late in games. Nor did he dominate big playoff games the way the greats do. His numbers would end up being good, but in a surprising way - "Webb had 24/12? Really?"

This is important to me, because a lot of the Sheed/Webber debate above discusses team success. I generally think team success is overrated by some people, but in this case it's important because if Webber had come up bigger, he would have a ring - so in his case, individual success and team success are actually pretty close to the same thing.

That pushes against his case in my opinion.

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2013, 11:19:48 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I distrust that sort of train of thought Boris, because people have said the same thing about KG on this board even during the 2007-2008 title run.

This despite us running our offense through KG in the post when it wasn't Pierce on the elbow, KG being our leading scorer in the playoffs, and our leading scorer in the fourth quarter in the playoffs.

I'm betting you'd find the same thing going on in Sacramento if you ran that tape. I don't recall the offense being run through Divac, but instead Webber. Once a dude is declared "not the guy" people make their memories match the facts they "know".

I think there is something to the criticism of Webber not being aggressive enough for his own individual offense, but I think its wildly overblown.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 11:25:30 AM by Fafnir »

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2013, 11:25:20 AM »

Online Donoghus

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I am really surprised people have Webber ahead of or even equal to Rasheed Wallace.

Sheed had a far far more successful career. An NBA title. A 2nd Finals appearance where he came within minutes of back-to-back titles. 2 more Conference Finals appearances in Portland. Plus another 3 in Detroit. And then finally one last Finals appearance in here in Boston as a key bench player. That is 3 Finals appearances and 8 trips to the Conference Finals. Repeat that again. 1 title, 3 trips to the Finals and 8 years in the Conference Finals.

What did Chris Webber do? No Championship. No trips to the Finals. Only once ... ONCE!!! ... did he lead his team to the Conference Finals in Sacramento. And then once again, a 2nd Conference Finals trip, in Detroit (thanks to Sheed and Co.) as a role player.

Webber had a higher peak but it was too short. Injuries took his best years away from him. That brief period dDoesn't make up for the HUGE difference in team success between the two of them.

I am not sold on Webber in the HoF (peak too short, not enough team success) but I definitely think Sheed should be there along with Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace and Rip Hamilton. The four of them.

The success they achieved together in Detroit was terrific. 7 50 win seasons. 6 conference finals showings. 2 Finals appearances. 1 NBA Title. Played a key role in every Title for 6 straight seasons.

Plus, Sheed had his successes in Portland + Chauncey in Denver + to a lesser extent, Big Ben in Cleveland + Rip had the NCAA title but not the team success in NBA outside of Detroit.

It's simple.

Team success is only one of the attributes to consider when evaluating a player for HOF purposes. 

Webber was a better basketball player.  The stats spell that out.  Watching him played spelled that out to me.
Webber was simply more talented.

Webber was the better talent & Sheed had the better team successes.

I'll use team success as a tiebreaker if I feel 2 guys are on the same plane.  These two were not.

That being said, Webber is borderline HOF while Sheed is not.

So we are talking Vimce carter as head and shoulders above manu ginobli for HOF?

No.  Who on here said that?

I don't think Vince Carter belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Vince carters individual success easily outweighs Manu Ginoblis.

There's another thread about ginobli being a lock for HOF. I actually commented on it cause of a Van gundy comment during a broadcast referring to him as. "Sure fire hall of famer" which I thought was pretty bold.

Was Vince carter one of the best in the game during a few year span? I'd say so. Was Ginobli? Never even close.

I'm taking a wild guess that you (if not you prob 75% on this blog) would rate Ginobli over carter in yerms of the hall

Manu is a very interesting case because of the international items and the fact that its the Basketball Hall of Fame and not NBA Hall of Fame.

Based on the entire picture, I think he has a much better case for the HOF than Carter.  What he achieved in Europe, in the Olympics, and with the Spurs makes for a pretty dynamic career.

I think if you just go off of NBA, then my answer would be "No".  However, taking in his entire basketball career, I think he probably is. 

What do you think?


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Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2013, 11:27:54 AM »

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Given past international candidates and whom has been admitted, Manu is an absolute shoe in for the HoF.

Re: Webber in the Hall of Fame?
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2013, 11:28:53 AM »

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Given past international candidates and whom has been admitted, Manu is an absolute shoe in for the HoF.

Yeah, I'm inclined to think the same thing.  The international stuff will put him over the top.


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