Author Topic: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread  (Read 69830 times)

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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #330 on: December 12, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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How did I make it personal? 



Might have something to do with this line wd

"That is putting your own personal feelings about a GM instead of looking at the product on the floor."

I look at the product on the floor and the rules of the endeavor. But I have a way of looking at things. Sure, people are allowed to back out of deals. Doesn't mean I or anyone has to like it. And if they appear to be doing so a bit, which to this point I haven't seen so its a moot point, then I don't see where taking that into consideration when doing FAM would be a big deal.

GMs get reputations for things in the real NBA that causes coaches and players not to want to sign with their teams. Can't see how such a thing would be bad here.



How is "your own personal feelings" different then "a way of looking at things" when the "thing" is allowed in the rules?


It is ignoring how the game is set up based on the way you think it should be set up.


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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #331 on: December 12, 2013, 03:00:48 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Until a deal is confirmed on the league official transaction page, the deal hasn't happened. 

I have no issue with teams that back out of trades because the waiting period after the initial announcement gave them new insight one how the rest of the GMs (the voters) feel about the impact on their team.  If it is overwhelmingly negative, backing out can be the best thing for a team to do. 

This is a long term adventure.  Unlike the other drafts where mistakes no longer matter after two weeks, a huge mistake here can last multiple seasons.  Crippling mistakes can lead to a GM feeling disinterested as time goes on to the point of neglecting their team.  Then, the league has to find a replacement GM for a buried team.
One way of looking at it but yet another is that GMs that back out of trades are more likely to back out of the game to begin with if things are not perfect so it really doesn't matter.

All I know is if I see teams backing out of confirmed deals, when I do FAM rankings, that will be considered, as the word of those GMs won't be trustworthy for a free agent to believe them and hence should negatively impact their ability to sign free agents.

Everyone is going to have personal opinions, but I can say with 100% certainty that's not the intention behind the Insider (to allow wishy-washy people a chance to go back on their word), and its not the way its been used.

100% of the time when a team has backed out of a deal, its been in deals that were roundly seen as drastically disproportionate, and the league was happy for it. I know one of them was Paul George to Portland, I don't know if led to a dissolved trade since.

And with the mind of making the league more 'fun' and realistic, the DKC Insider was meant as a pathway to leaking news and other stuff to the masses, as you would have in a legitimate trade scenario with the national press.

Even though it would be easy to see how people might start backing out willy-nilly, I don't think there is anything to support that its been going on so far, and even better, I don't think we've had to veto a trade yet.
and as I said earlier, I don't see that it has gone on so its not a big deal. I agree that in some cases deals need to be pulled back and reviewed and ultimately taken off the table but that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about the wishy washy GM that does it more than once and gets a reputation for it. A reputation that should follow him to FAM, IMHO.

Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #332 on: December 12, 2013, 03:07:09 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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GMs get reputations for things in the real NBA that causes coaches and players not to want to sign with their teams. Can't see how such a thing would be bad here.

I've been hoping we could get a "Danny Ainge Is A Snake" (DAIAS) rule for about 6 months now, where the # of trades involving starters and especially cases of signing guys to to multi-year contracts then trading them would affect future FAM interactions.

Nobody dug it.

But as it relates to backing out of a deal after the response through insider, that's supposed to be for the good of the league, I don't see why that should also carry a negative FAM connotation.

Well, I mean I see why you think it should, but your example is a hypothetical that hasn't happened yet, but even if it did happen and we had a wishy-washy GM who went around screwing with everyone, wouldn't the law of the jungle dictate that they'll get their own punishment?

For instance, I'm not sure you're aware of this or not, but this isn't my first go-round in a CB Draft game. I've played in a few. Somewhere, alarmist reactionary GMs took to labeling me as a guy who makes unfair predatory trades, and because of that, I've had multiple situations wherein someone just flatly says, "I like the deal, but I was told I shouldn't trade with you."

Like I'm the kid at school who has lice! Right to my internet face!!

The DKC Insider helps me out because when I make a trade now, GMs also know that there is a less chance they get screwed. It helps them out because there is actually a less chance they get screwed. It helps the rest of the league out because there is a less chance they get screwed by the changing hands of a player they never knew was available for a price they gladly would've doubled. Helps everyone!


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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #333 on: December 12, 2013, 03:12:43 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I think that strays from the point though, IP.

In my view, the DKC Insider doesn't just help  bad trades - but it also helps people who aren't always on the site stay involved in trade talk.

If someone likes the sound of a trade, but doesn't have the time to pm 30 people and say 'can you beat this' or live in the thread a few hours to say 'i'm looking to move this guy' I get it.

Now if a team pulled back a few times I understand why somebody might not want to engage in talks with them, but they're simply using a tool in a way it was designed to be used.
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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #334 on: December 12, 2013, 03:15:45 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I think that strays from the point though, IP.

In my view, the DKC Insider doesn't just help  bad trades - but it also helps people who aren't always on the site stay involved in trade talk.

Um, I know, SO:

Quote
It helps the rest of the league out because there is a less chance they get screwed by the changing hands of a player they never knew was available for a price they gladly would've doubled.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm a pretty sharp cookie.

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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #335 on: December 12, 2013, 03:17:14 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I think that strays from the point though, IP.

In my view, the DKC Insider doesn't just help  bad trades - but it also helps people who aren't always on the site stay involved in trade talk.

Um, I know, SO:

Quote
It helps the rest of the league out because there is a less chance they get screwed by the changing hands of a player they never knew was available for a price they gladly would've doubled.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm a pretty sharp cookie.

I know you know that but I wanna make sure that everybody else knows that
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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #336 on: December 12, 2013, 03:19:36 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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You guys made your points.

Know that this wasn't something that was nefarious or meant to threaten other GMs, as wdleehi made it out to be, or to instigate a situation. It was meant to bring to a point that if I see a case where a GM is using the DKC Insider as a way to back out of trades multiple times because of wishy washiness, then I think he should be held accountable and that one way I would would be to have it effect his TEAM ranking in the FAM free agency area.

The Insider was set up for a purpose. One purpose, I am sure it was not set up for was to be abused be indecisive GMs. THAT is the GM I am talking about have an opinion on.

And since, it hasn't been a problem, no big deal but it doesn't mean it couldn't be a problem in the future.

That's all I have on that. You can all go back to assuming the worst about my intentions and thinking me a crap stirrer again.


A small adjust in one section of a 6 part FAM was all I was talking about.

Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #337 on: December 12, 2013, 03:28:21 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Just to chime in, I think it is right to say both the 'Insider' is good thing, overall, and a negative FAM ranking could be attached to a GM who is a serial backer-outer.  I don't think this needs to be a black and white issue.

I think it is reasonable to put this under the umbrella of "desirability".  Players might not desire to sign with a GM who is untrustworthy.  So far, this isn't a concern, that I know of.  I fail to see how this knowledge, that some FAM rankers may view this behavior negatively, would unduly influence GMs to act in a way that isn't taking full advantage of the true intention of the 'Insider'.  I trust the judgment of those ranking the FAM to not use this logic in "bad blood", and only apply this standard when the team being ranked has proven to be going beyond the actual point of the 'Insider' process.

Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #338 on: December 12, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »

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You certainly made easy prey of my Washington predecessor. I'm still not sure what he gave up a first round pick for...

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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #339 on: December 12, 2013, 03:42:28 PM »

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I think that strays from the point though, IP.

In my view, the DKC Insider doesn't just help  bad trades - but it also helps people who aren't always on the site stay involved in trade talk.

If someone likes the sound of a trade, but doesn't have the time to pm 30 people and say 'can you beat this' or live in the thread a few hours to say 'i'm looking to move this guy' I get it.

Now if a team pulled back a few times I understand why somebody might not want to engage in talks with them, but they're simply using a tool in a way it was designed to be used.

One offshoot of this: if somebody is basically agreeing to a trade just to solicit new offers, I hope they're being honest with their trading partner. It hardly sounds like good faith and fair dealing.


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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #340 on: December 12, 2013, 03:45:13 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I think that strays from the point though, IP.

In my view, the DKC Insider doesn't just help  bad trades - but it also helps people who aren't always on the site stay involved in trade talk.

If someone likes the sound of a trade, but doesn't have the time to pm 30 people and say 'can you beat this' or live in the thread a few hours to say 'i'm looking to move this guy' I get it.

Now if a team pulled back a few times I understand why somebody might not want to engage in talks with them, but they're simply using a tool in a way it was designed to be used.

One offshoot of this: if somebody is basically agreeing to a trade just to solicit new offers, I hope they're being honest with their trading partner. It hardly sounds like good faith and fair dealing.

I absolutely agree that they should be telling people that. Of course I can't make it a rule, but a heavy frown would be applied.
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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #341 on: December 12, 2013, 03:47:26 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Just to chime in, I think it is right to say both the 'Insider' is good thing, overall, and a negative FAM ranking could be attached to a GM who is a serial backer-outer.  I don't think this needs to be a black and white issue.

I think it is reasonable to put this under the umbrella of "desirability".  Players might not desire to sign with a GM who is untrustworthy.  So far, this isn't a concern, that I know of.  I fail to see how this knowledge, that some FAM rankers may view this behavior negatively, would unduly influence GMs to act in a way that isn't taking full advantage of the true intention of the 'Insider'.  I trust the judgment of those ranking the FAM to not use this logic in "bad blood", and only apply this standard when the team being ranked has proven to be going beyond the actual point of the 'Insider' process.

To be clear, I see the merit in the idea of applying a negative ranking in FAM.

But it goes directly against one of the principals of the DKC Insider, and just the DKC in general.
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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #342 on: December 12, 2013, 04:12:10 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Just to chime in, I think it is right to say both the 'Insider' is good thing, overall, and a negative FAM ranking could be attached to a GM who is a serial backer-outer.  I don't think this needs to be a black and white issue.

I think it is reasonable to put this under the umbrella of "desirability".  Players might not desire to sign with a GM who is untrustworthy.  So far, this isn't a concern, that I know of.  I fail to see how this knowledge, that some FAM rankers may view this behavior negatively, would unduly influence GMs to act in a way that isn't taking full advantage of the true intention of the 'Insider'.  I trust the judgment of those ranking the FAM to not use this logic in "bad blood", and only apply this standard when the team being ranked has proven to be going beyond the actual point of the 'Insider' process.

To be clear, I see the merit in the idea of applying a negative ranking in FAM.

But it goes directly against one of the principals of the DKC Insider, and just the DKC in general.

I guess I just don't see it subverting the 'Insider' process or intent.  It's more of a small "check" or "balance" to keep GM's honest.  Not to say they otherwise wouldn't, but I think it's a fair way to asses each circumstance on it's own merits.

Other's might feel differently, and never consider it.  That's fine too.  I'm mean, in reality, we're talking about a completely hypothetical situation at this point.  One that I'm not sure we'll ever see (let's hope).

Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #343 on: December 12, 2013, 04:18:39 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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It's just too much for my tastes.
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Re: DKC Feedback & Suggestions Thread
« Reply #344 on: December 16, 2013, 12:56:30 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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So we dealt with our first 'post-Kobe' No-trade-clause.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amlkpn9KOkCqdGhUbE9QaEpyU3NfUEt4YTRxVHlxM2c&output=html

How does everyone feel like that went?

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