Author Topic: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)  (Read 55144 times)

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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2013, 12:20:21 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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the thing with ellis, regardless of his previous numbers, that people aren't taking into consideration, is that he will be playing alongside with lbj.  his looks and ability to slash will be beneficial and easier for him.  lbj commands so much attention and impact the oppositions individual, as well as team defense (and rotation). I mean, lbj made mo Williams an all star then to a nobody.

this is a hypothetical game, so in the case of ellis, I don't care about previous numbers, bc this hypothetical circumstance make me think he will score effectively and easily.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2013, 12:22:46 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

He only had two playoff appearances. One with GSW who he was a solid part but was still young and playing off the bench. And one with Milwaukee in which they are COMPLETELY mismatched. That's unfair to say that Ellis isn't clutch in the Playoffs, because he hasn't been in a position to be on, especially when you're getting blown out because his team is just way inferior.

But in times during the regular season with the Dubs, boy is he clutch. Game tying baskets, game winners, dagger shots. He did it. I get the hate for Monta, but I can't deny his clutchness. I saw it first hand. Now with LeBron on his side, you smother James and give him that opportunity, like I said, I wouldn't bet on it. He has enough of a regular season track record of clutchness for me.

I posted the numbers above.  I think your view might be colored by perception bias.  We remember the good things (i.e., game winners) a lot more than we do the bad (bricks, lots and lots of bricks.)

I get the point his numbers are bad, as the primary scorer and the guy coming off the bench. I get it.

IMO it's a different story if he plays a different role, especially with someone who commands a ton of attention. He gets more easy opportunities compare to being the one who's doing a lot just to cut the lead to 10 points.

Guess agree to disagree.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2013, 12:25:12 PM »

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I think Tony Allen can really get up and under Monta Ellis. Neutralize him.

But Caron Butler? No hope in hell. Too slow. Can't defend Monta.
Or Jamal Crawford? Lousy defender. On the bright side, I don't think Monta can defend him either.

Against those two guys, I think Monta Ellis can put up big numbers especially when Minnesota goes small and creates all that extra spacing for a slasher like Monta to attack.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2013, 12:27:28 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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the thing with ellis, regardless of his previous numbers, that people aren't taking into consideration, is that he will be playing alongside with lbj.  his looks and ability to slash will be beneficial and easier for him.  I mean, lbj made mo Williams an all star then to a nobody.

this is a hypothetical game, so in the case of ellis, I don't care about previous numbers, bc this hypothetical circumstance make me think he will score effectively and easily.

I get the argument, DL, but Lebron James isn't magic.  He can't suddenly turn an inefficient chucker into a brilliant second fiddle.

I mean, you mention Mo Williams, but the season before he joined Cleveland, he averaged 17 points, 6 assists, and most importantly, a .528 eFG% / .566 TS%.  His numbers went up *very* slightly in Cleveland playing next to Lebron.

Last season, Ellis had a .448 eFG% / .493 TS% (!!!).  I'm not sure if you understand advanced metrics / efficiency stats, but those numbers are beyond terrible.



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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2013, 12:27:47 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

I like Cleveland's chances in this, because I'm a firm believer in the defensive gameplan for a LeBron team that you've outlined up here.

However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 12:31:17 PM »

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Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2013, 12:31:41 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2013, 12:32:47 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game
San Antonio went small right with Miami, they tried staying big and it was a disaster for them.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2013, 12:33:05 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

I like Cleveland's chances in this, because I'm a firm believer in the defensive gameplan for a LeBron team that you've outlined up here.

However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

It's true about the win button, but I have two days to try to convince people. Hopefully a good chunk of voters have open minds, because I think we can get the job done.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2013, 12:33:57 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2013, 12:34:16 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game

That's a thought.

Although, if Battier/LeBron is the forward combo for Minnesota, why not just stick with Wallace at SF? Battier's not going to do much else beyond corner threes on offense.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2013, 12:36:06 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.

As much as KG is the heart and soul (and defensive identity) of the team, Horford is the best player. And Lawson's pretty dang good.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2013, 12:36:29 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough.

First, I guess I fundamentally disagree about the value of KG.  I think he can still be a vital cog in a championship team.

Second, Al Horford is a fantastic player.

Third, Ty Lawson is really, really good, as well.

Last, the fit of Cleveland is simply fantastic.  I see this team gelling as a "whole is better than the sum of its parts" type of team, similar to the 2013 Red Sox (dang, I hope that didn't just jinx them.)


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2013, 12:36:37 PM »

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Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game

That's a thought.

Although, if Battier/LeBron is the forward combo for Minnesota, why not just stick with Wallace at SF? Battier's not going to do much else beyond corner threes on offense.
Because of Landry's better physical offensive game and an equal ability to cover Battier sitting in corners

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2013, 12:37:51 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.

As much as KG is the heart and soul (and defensive identity) of the team, Horford is the best player. And Lawson's pretty dang good.
If KG has declined so much that Al Horford (or Ty Lawson) is now the best player on your team you have no shot at all.