Author Topic: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)  (Read 57945 times)

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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2013, 11:38:47 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Question for Minnesota:  Does the fact that Monta Ellis has only been to the playoffs twice in his career have anything to do with his style of play?

What do you make of the fact that Monta's career playoff averages are 9.7 points per game on 40.9% shooting (and 14.3% 3PT shooting?)

Does it concern you that in a first round sweep last year, Monta averaged only 14 points and 3.5 turnovers?

Monta's career playoff TS% is .464!!!!  Isn't that horrificly awful?  What about his career playoff ORtg of 87, or his career DRtg of 111?

Is it fair to say that Monta Ellis has been one of the worst playoff performers ever for a guy of his supposed talent?


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2013, 11:43:27 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2013, 11:45:03 AM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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It's true Roy: Monta is an awful playoff performer and LeBron is one of the best. We're going to divert all of our attention to LeBron and let Monta shoot the Wolves out of the game. And from those stats you posted, people can see it'll happen.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 01:12:37 PM by AB_Celtic »

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2013, 11:53:07 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's true Roy: Monta is an awful playoff performer and LeBron is one of the best. We're going to divert all of our attention to LeBron and let Monta shoot the Mavs out of the game. And from those stats you posted, people can see it'll happen.

Yeah...  This probably looks like a coordinated tag team (it's not), but when a voter mentioned that Cleveland only wins if Monta tries to "get his", it made me question when Monta *doesn't* try to get his.

I'm so disappointed by Monta Ellis.  I've followed him since high school, since he was linked to Danny Ainge.  He had so much promise as a rookie, and he helped me win a fantasy league title early on.  So, initially, he was a bit of a binky.

But man, he's just been such a chucker that I did a complete 180 on the kid.  I've argued for years that he can't help a team win, and that I couldn't imagine what a Monta Ellis title team would look like.

He hasn't changed, and he hasn't grown.  Last year against Milwaukee, he shot 15.8% on threes.  That didn't stop him from taking 4.8 three pointers per game.  He choked under pressure at the line, too, shooting 37.5%.


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2013, 11:54:22 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2013, 11:56:37 AM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

If we keep LeBron smothered, which we intend to, who's gonna be left open for the clutch shot? Monta.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2013, 12:04:56 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

If we keep LeBron smothered, which we intend to, who's gonna be left open for the clutch shot? Monta.

I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

"The Boston Celtics are not a basketball team, they are a way of life."

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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2013, 12:05:50 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

A second scorer is important, though.

In games 1 through 3 last year, Wade averaged 14.3 points per game on 44% shooting (a number that Monta is unlikely to reach, by the way).  The Heat went 1-2.

In games 4 through 7 last year, Wade averaged 23.5 points per game on 49.4% shooting.  The Heat went 3-1.

Everybody knows that Michael Jordan didn't start winning titles until Scottie Pippen came around.  Lebron didn't start winning until he got Wade and Bosh.

Has any team in the history of the NBA won with a #2 as bad as Monta Ellis?  Arguably the 1994 Rockets, but that's about it.


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2013, 12:06:18 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

EDIT:  I just looked it up, Yoki. 

Ellis' "clutch" stats (late in the 4th / OT, game within 5 points):

2008:  .296 eFG% on jumpers
2009:  .261 eFG% on jumpers
2010:  .356 eFG% on jumpers
2011: .436 eFG% on jumpers
2012:  .487 eFG% on jumpers
2013: .437 eFG% on jumpers

So, Ellis has had one season where he's been decent in the clutch, two season where he's been pretty bad, and three seasons when he has been absolutely terrible.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 12:15:24 PM by Roy H. »


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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2013, 12:07:25 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

And even if he was clutch, he'd still be less clutch than LeBron.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2013, 12:09:30 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

A second scorer is important, though.

In games 1 through 3 last year, Wade averaged 14.3 points per game on 44% shooting (a number that Monta is unlikely to reach, by the way).  The Heat went 1-2.

In games 4 through 7 last year, Wade averaged 23.5 points per game on 49.4% shooting.  The Heat went 3-1.

Everybody knows that Michael Jordan didn't start winning titles until Scottie Pippen came around.  Lebron didn't start winning until he got Wade and Bosh.

Has any team in the history of the NBA won with a #2 as bad as Monta Ellis?  Arguably the 1994 Rockets, but that's about it.

Yes, but the second scorer does not get the best defender the opponent has.

LeBron is getting all the attention, the opponents energy and everybody is focused on how to stop him. This is the same as when Monta was the primary option, the focus is to stop Monta.

But he's not, he's getting pretty much a head start because you have to double team LeBron, and Monta is ultra skilled, can beat you in many ways.

This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2013, 12:12:30 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2013, 12:13:59 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

He only had two playoff appearances. One with GSW who he was a solid part but was still young and playing off the bench. And one with Milwaukee in which they are COMPLETELY mismatched. That's unfair to say that Ellis isn't clutch in the Playoffs, because he hasn't been in a position to be on, especially when you're getting blown out because his team is just way inferior.

But in times during the regular season with the Dubs, boy is he clutch. Game tying baskets, game winners, dagger shots. He did it. I get the hate for Monta, but I can't deny his clutchness. I saw it first hand. Now with LeBron on his side, you smother James and give him that opportunity, like I said, I wouldn't bet on it. He has enough of a regular season track record of clutchness for me.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2013, 12:16:24 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

I have never said Monta had to be doubled either. What I said was if they have to double LeBron with another wing, leaving Monta an foot or two to work, it might cause trouble.

Heck, I think if you put Butler on Monta, it might cause trouble. Now if Allen is in his grill, then you contain him. But that leaves LeBron one on one and unless the bigs double on him, in which LBJ makes you pay, I'm not sure Crash can contain LBJ enough.
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Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2013, 12:17:25 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

He only had two playoff appearances. One with GSW who he was a solid part but was still young and playing off the bench. And one with Milwaukee in which they are COMPLETELY mismatched. That's unfair to say that Ellis isn't clutch in the Playoffs, because he hasn't been in a position to be on, especially when you're getting blown out because his team is just way inferior.

But in times during the regular season with the Dubs, boy is he clutch. Game tying baskets, game winners, dagger shots. He did it. I get the hate for Monta, but I can't deny his clutchness. I saw it first hand. Now with LeBron on his side, you smother James and give him that opportunity, like I said, I wouldn't bet on it. He has enough of a regular season track record of clutchness for me.

I posted the numbers above.  I think your view might be colored by perception bias.  We remember the good things (i.e., game winners) a lot more than we do the bad (bricks, lots and lots of bricks.)


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