Author Topic: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)  (Read 97843 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2013, 07:58:14 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

  • NFT
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3935
  • Tommy Points: 513
I still don't know who I'm leaning towards, but this is what I have gathered from last season:

Ty Lawson shot 29.6 FG% against George Hill and averaged 9ppg. George Hill shot 33.3 FG% against Ty and averaged 13.5ppg.

Jamal Crawford shot 38.8 FG% against Kobe Bryant and averaged 16.3ppg. Kobe shot 49 FG% against Jamal and average 28.3ppg.


Kobe Bryant shot 40.5 FG% against Tony Allen and averaged 27.6ppg. Tony Allen shot 59 FG% against Kobe and average 9.3ppg.

Will still be doing more "research."

Butler shot 38.8 FG% against Carter and averaged 13.6ppg. Carter shot 40.7 FG% against Butler and averaged 12ppg.

Horford shot 57.6 FG% against Asik and averaged 16ppg and 9rpg. Asik shot 35.7 FG% and averaged 5.5 ppg 18rpg.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 08:22:39 PM by ronaldo943 »

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2013, 08:03:59 PM »

Offline airbelinelli

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 381
  • Tommy Points: 71
  • Derrick Rose is year-to-year
So little known fact, I'm still a GM on the team, and have helped AB build what I think is a perfect playoff team. Fwf has built a really great team built around Kobe, but there really are question marks that can't be ignored. I know everyone expects Kobe back and amazing, and he's a real fighter, but the same thing was said about Rose. Granted he has youth on his side and was able to sacrifice a year, but still, it shows the seriousness of this injury. Amare as well has been a great player, but hasn't really been anywhere near the player he had been and people don't know what to expect as he continues to age.

The frontcourt of Milsap and Asik is great, but neither are the most mobile players, and while great defending in the post, can really be stretched by our frontcourt's shooting ability.

In terms of questions to TA not being able to play minutes, a lot of that resolves around playing on a Memphis team which needed points from anywhere. They were built for defense, but needed scorers. On the other hand, many of our other players can be dynamic scorers, and if TA needs to come off the court, we have other shut down defenders on the wing that can be put on Kobe.

Overall, Fwf built a great team around Kobe, and think they would match up well with many other playoff teams, but the Cavs team is built for the playoffs, and can shut down Kobe and the Magic with it.
CB Draft: Golden State Warriors - 14.23
PG: Bledsoe/Lin/ Harris
SG: Beal/ Henderson/ Ingram
SF: Winslow/McDermott/
PF: Turner/ Acy / Hernangomez
C: Adams/ Turner/ McRoberts
DKC Nets: http://tinyurl.com/h5mdvwj

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2013, 08:04:48 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

  • DKC Commish
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3234
  • Tommy Points: 460
Championship and Playoff Experience: The Cavs seem to think this is an advantage for them - and against some teams it might be. But not when facing Orlando.  Kobe, of course, has more rings than the entire Cleveland roster. 

But in addition, we also have far more players who have made deep playoff runs.

Going along for the ride in the playoffs is not the same as leading the team there. KG's experience in winning is more substantial than any of your players' experience save for Kobe and maybe the always-injured Amar'e.

Perimeter defense:  With most of the Cavs' top players up front, it's essential that Ty Lawson play well to create opportunities.  Unfortunately, Lawson is known for struggling against longer PGs, and Hill is no exception.  Head-to-head with Hill Lawson has only scored 9 pts on 39% shooting with 4 assists.  Only twice has Lawson scored 15 or more pts vs Hill.

A lot of these games (the first 5) were when Lawson was not yet starting and played insignificant minutes, likely with the bench mob. After that, you're going off of just three games, in two of which (throwing away one awful game) Lawson actually shot 42%, put up 15 ppg, 7 apg, and 4.5 rpg. Oh, and in one of those games (when Lawson and Hill played 40 minutes each - so there's actual overlap there) Lawson had 5 steals. Who do you think those 5 steals came against?

And don't discount Lawson's ability to show up in the playoffs. 35 and 10 folks.

"Tony Allen, Kobe-stopper" is a myth: In 10 playoff matchups, Kobe has outscored TA 26.4-3, with 7 reb, 4 ast and 2.5 stl.  Not exactly getting shut down there.   Now, you may be saying "That's not fair!  Tony barely played in a lot of those games!"  But that's precisely the point.  TA didn't play because his defense on Kobe wasn't nearly enough to overcome his offensive deficiencies.

See, you mention "intangibles" in your opener, but then you go off of a bunch of stats that don't paint the whole picture, when the intangibles actually do. Kobe himself said that Tony Allen played better defense on him than anyone else. In an article I included in my first post, the author explained that Kobe shot 5-14 when Allen was covering him in one particular game and had seven turnovers. I just don't know how you can ignore these.

And as for Tony not playing because of his offensive deficiencies, he's playing 33 minutes per game.

Interior defense: We already have Hill clamping down on Lawson, but he's coupled with an elite P+R defender on the other end, Omer Asik.  Asik will match up with Horford and prevent penetration by Lawson and rolls to the basket by Al, forcing him into lower percentage midrange jump shots.  Al will also have tremendous trouble posting against the bigger Asik, one of the stoutest post defenders in the league.  KG is no longer a pick and roll threat, or much of a post guy, and Millsap is mobile enough to challenge the occasional pick and pop action, and force KG to do his work in the post.  Already stymied on the perimeter, Cleveland will have trouble feeding its talented bigs as well.

As much as I respect Asik, he doesn't have the quickness to keep up with Horford, who can score from nearly anywhere on the floor. And as for KG, if Asik's height is a plus over Horford, then KG's is a plus over Millsap. And KG will continue to do what he's done these last few years, just shoot over the guy or play in the PnR, both of which he can still do excellently.





As Roy and nick have already said, the Cavs just have the upper hand here, largely due to our "intangibles", which you mentioned as your strong suit.

Also, and I should have said this before anything else, if you can make it hard to score for us, we can make it harder to score for you. When we shut down Amar'e and Millsap and slow down Kobe, who brings the points? If you say Jarrett Jack, well Tony will guard him if Kobe's off the floor, and if both are on the floor then Wallace will pick up Kobe.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 08:14:29 PM by AB_Celtic »

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2013, 08:07:58 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

  • DKC Commish
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3234
  • Tommy Points: 460
I'll just say this now, basketball-reference head-to-head comparisons are just awful tools to go off of. There's just so many variables that you really have no idea whether the numbers are meaningful or not.

1. Did they actually defend each other?
2. Who were their teammates?
3. How many shots did they take while being defended by the other player? How many against a different player?
4. What kind of defense were they looking at from the other team?
and so on...

ALSO LOOK GUYS!!! AIR IS HERE!!!

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2013, 08:14:45 PM »

Offline airbelinelli

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 381
  • Tommy Points: 71
  • Derrick Rose is year-to-year
CB Draft: Golden State Warriors - 14.23
PG: Bledsoe/Lin/ Harris
SG: Beal/ Henderson/ Ingram
SF: Winslow/McDermott/
PF: Turner/ Acy / Hernangomez
C: Adams/ Turner/ McRoberts
DKC Nets: http://tinyurl.com/h5mdvwj

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2013, 08:16:53 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

  • NFT
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3935
  • Tommy Points: 513

A lot of these games (the first 5) were when Lawson was not yet starting and played insignificant minutes, likely with the bench mob. After that, you're going off of just three games, in two of which (throwing away one awful game) Lawson actually shot 42%, put up 15 ppg, 7 apg, and 4.5 rpg. Oh, and in one of those games (when Lawson and Hill played 40 minutes each - so there's actual overlap there) Lawson had 5 steals. Who do you think those 5 steals came against?

And don't discount Lawson's ability to show up in the playoffs. 35 and 10 folks.

Just pointing out some facts:
In the game where Lawson went 1 for 10 he played 35 minutes and Hill played 37. (Hill had 3 blocks)

In the game Lawson had 5 steals, Hill had 3 TOs (so did Lawson) so I'd assume it wasn't all from him.

Carry on...

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2013, 08:18:52 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club


WE GOT AIR, HERE!!!

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2013, 08:21:52 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

  • DKC Commish
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3234
  • Tommy Points: 460
In the game where Lawson went 1 for 10 he played 35 minutes and Hill played 37.

Yeah, Lawson had one terrible game. Are you really going to base your predictions for what he'll do in this series off of one game? I'm not. Players have off games all the time. Even if Lawson puts up a stinker like that in one of the seven games here, we'll still take the series.

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2013, 08:25:37 PM »

Offline airbelinelli

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 381
  • Tommy Points: 71
  • Derrick Rose is year-to-year
In the game where Lawson went 1 for 10 he played 35 minutes and Hill played 37.

Yeah, Lawson had one terrible game. Are you really going to base your predictions for what he'll do in this series off of one game? I'm not. Players have off games all the time. Even if Lawson puts up a stinker like that in one of the seven games here, we'll still take the series.

You also have to know that these are different players with different teams around them. This isnt lawson as the primary scorer on the nuggets with a sketchy frontcourt, this is a more mature lawson, with great post players.
Also it isnt george hill with a balanced spurs or Pacers team, it's him on a Kobe dominated team.
CB Draft: Golden State Warriors - 14.23
PG: Bledsoe/Lin/ Harris
SG: Beal/ Henderson/ Ingram
SF: Winslow/McDermott/
PF: Turner/ Acy / Hernangomez
C: Adams/ Turner/ McRoberts
DKC Nets: http://tinyurl.com/h5mdvwj

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2013, 08:26:32 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

  • NFT
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3935
  • Tommy Points: 513
In the game where Lawson went 1 for 10 he played 35 minutes and Hill played 37.

Yeah, Lawson had one terrible game. Are you really going to base your predictions for what he'll do in this series off of one game? I'm not. Players have off games all the time. Even if Lawson puts up a stinker like that in one of the seven games here, we'll still take the series.

Well if you want to go off of stats Lawson had 3 bad games as his regular season FG% average is 46.1% and his highest in those 3 games where 42.9%. (Also in the game he shot 42.9% Hill only played 20 minutes, I don't think that's a coincidence.)

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2013, 08:29:20 PM »

Offline AB_Celtic

  • DKC Commish
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3234
  • Tommy Points: 460
I'm sick of discussing head-to-head stats - already explained why I think they're near useless - so I'm gonna check out. I'll be back to discuss more later tonight or maybe tomorrow.

Go Cavs and go 'Cats (amirite air?).

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2013, 08:29:30 PM »

Offline McHales Pits

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1621
  • Tommy Points: 175
Cavs for me...Kobe's injury scares me away from going Orlando
2013 CB Draft Champions*: Minnesota Timberwolves
DKC League: Washington Wizards

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2013, 08:29:42 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

  • NFT
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3935
  • Tommy Points: 513
In the game where Lawson went 1 for 10 he played 35 minutes and Hill played 37.

Yeah, Lawson had one terrible game. Are you really going to base your predictions for what he'll do in this series off of one game? I'm not. Players have off games all the time. Even if Lawson puts up a stinker like that in one of the seven games here, we'll still take the series.

You also have to know that these are different players with different teams around them. This isnt lawson as the primary scorer on the nuggets with a sketchy frontcourt, this is a more mature lawson, with great post players.
Also it isnt george hill with a balanced spurs or Pacers team, it's him on a Kobe dominated team.

The Nuggets where a team that had so many different scorers.

Lawson 16.7 PPG
Gallo 16.2 PPG
Chandler 13.0 PPG
Iguodala 13.0 PPG
Brewer 12.1 PPG
Faried 11.5 PPG

Also George Hill is fine playing off the ball.

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2013, 08:35:11 PM »

Offline airbelinelli

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 381
  • Tommy Points: 71
  • Derrick Rose is year-to-year


The Nuggets where a team that had so many different scorers.

Lawson 16.7 PPG
Gallo 16.2 PPG
Chandler 13.0 PPG
Iguodala 13.0 PPG
Brewer 12.1 PPG
Faried 11.5 PPG

Also George Hill is fine playing off the ball.
[/quote]
Exactly what I'm saying, the other scorers on that team weren't players that really could create their own offense, it went through lawson. Our offense will have the ball in Lawson's hand a good amount, but there will be others that can score more then any of those other Nuggets players.
CB Draft: Golden State Warriors - 14.23
PG: Bledsoe/Lin/ Harris
SG: Beal/ Henderson/ Ingram
SF: Winslow/McDermott/
PF: Turner/ Acy / Hernangomez
C: Adams/ Turner/ McRoberts
DKC Nets: http://tinyurl.com/h5mdvwj

Re: 2013 CB Draft: Eastern First Round: Cleveland(3) vs Orlando(6)
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 08:38:03 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

  • NFT
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3935
  • Tommy Points: 513


The Nuggets where a team that had so many different scorers.

Lawson 16.7 PPG
Gallo 16.2 PPG
Chandler 13.0 PPG
Iguodala 13.0 PPG
Brewer 12.1 PPG
Faried 11.5 PPG

Also George Hill is fine playing off the ball.
Exactly what I'm saying, the other scorers on that team weren't players that really could create their own offense, it went through lawson. Our offense will have the ball in Lawson's hand a good amount, but there will be others that can score more then any of those other Nuggets players.
[/quote]

Iguodala and Gallo would also run the offense it wasn't just ran by Lawson. I can see Horford scoring, but definitely not Crawford or if he does he will be scoring but shooting under .400 FG%.